HD1000u... my quest and PeaSoup Green ????

I have watched a couple of games on my HD1000 and the fields look fine The color may be slightly off - I don't know. I haven't noticed a problem. I was watching the bowl game on ESPN2 HD last night and everything look perfectly fine to me.

Everything I have seen has looked excellent to me. I remember one football game where the team had on red jerseys and it looked a little icky to me, but it looked the same on all the other tv's in my hous,e maybe it was just a bad color for the tv cameras, i didnt lower my red on the projector though,

I noticed no problem at all with greens on the 1000 when I auditioned it.

I think that particular reviewer may have gotten hold of a bad unit. I've seen no noticeable issues with the greens on my 1000, and I'm generally pretty sensitive to ugly greens and reds. Or maybe it's an issue that is going to show up on measurements, but won't be really visible by human viewing.

I have not seen anything on my HD1000U but PQ that (to me) is so awesome as to stop a wild out-of-control herd of cattle in their tracks.

I was not particularly thrilled with the review you mentioned - I wondered too if they got a bad unit or what. Seemed a bit an odd review.

I read that review and was amazed -- this projector has better color out of the box than either my Samsung DLP or my HP (Sharp) LCD. Different bulbs will have some difference in colors since they are a variable in the mix -- I wonder if the set he got was just an exception rather than the rule.

I wish I counted how many times I read this same comment about the same issue in the HD70 forums...everybody said how bad those colors where and how they could'nt be calibrated....well its all opinion...My HD70 looks great to me. on the otherhand its not unlikely that this could be an issue on both projectors as coretronics manufactures them with the same dmd chip and they both have a 7 segmented color wheel with a clear segment and they are meant to compete against each other...it makes sense they could have the same hardware limitations.Maybe the bulb burns with a green hue until it breaks in?
Some people realize this projector is 720p for under $1000 others simply do not understand what this means..and think it should perform just like a 5,000 projector...the color issue appears to me, again only my opinion, to be way over critisized... with proper adjustment you would have to be too anal for a sub $1000 projector owner to complain about this...its a trade off for the masses who want a punchy bright oversaturated plasma tv look rather than the movie theater projector look...its all about opinion. These things are the "Harbor frieght tools "of the projector market here people...And I love mine to death knowing that.

I already mentioned something about this review in the HD1000u tweakers thread.

Just a calibrator used to working on spendy units with color calibration controls - who needs to reset his expectations when working on $1K boxes - or even $5K boxes. Combine that with using charts that correlate with physical measures rather than objective perceptual measures - and the calibrator is letting the charts tell his eyes what they are seeing.

In a side by side with a reference display you can tell - but without a reference you cannot - perceptually it is about a 10-20% error. This is a common trick played on brighter DLP - the Optoma HD81 does it - all of Infocus boxes do it - and guess what - so does the Optoma HD70. The MitsuHC3000 well regarded for excellent greens - does it to a lesser degree (about 5-10% error). The reason the trick is played is the small perceptual error even in a side by side is worth the tradeoff for being 2x brighter. It has nothing to do with the cost of the projector - it has everything to do with increasing lamp efficiency.

The calibrators comments however are being misinterpreted. They are not about green push to grayscale - they are not about too bright greens - rather it is about the color of the green primary being more pea soup (towards yellow) than forest green (towards cyan). Generally the actual color of green is the least objectionable error compared to green grays or bright greens. Usually the green grays or bright greens - on most displays can be calibrated (often required due to poor presets) - while primary greens cannot be calibrated.

So you have to understand what color calibration means - you see there are three things each requiring different set of controls - in perceptual priority order - grayscale and secondary colors, color brightness, and primary colors.

Yea, I didn't notice it when I compared side by side with my 4805 either. They're probably off by similar amounts as Kras suggests.

Not that it means a whole lot, but I just put up the solid green field on my 1000u and my computer monitor (clone mode). They were almost identical to my eyes.

The difference between SP4805 greens is they are a undersaturated (SD) yellowish Green vs the HD1000/HD70 oversaturated (HD) yellowish Green. But they are all about the same amount of yellowish tinge. I have heard very few complaints about the SP4805 Greens other than from Optoma HD30 owners - and that had a grossly oversaturated bluish forest Green in the opposing direction that was not accurate either.

Attached are charts from my Infocus SP7210 review. Based on the 1939 CIE chart which uses the spectral sensitivity of the eyes - you would think the Greens are bad, Reds are OK, Blues are great.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/SP7210_demo_CIE39.jpg

But look at the CIE1976 chart which is based on psychovisual perception in the brain - and you see that RGB are perceived to be about the same amount of error - despite spectrally measuring different error.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/SP7210_demo_CIE76.jpg

But we need to get a closer look so we zoom into the target - as well as consider color brightness biases perception...

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/SP7210.pdf

And now we can see that perceptually the stronger deep Reds are worse perceived error than the paler yellower Green! Since we also account for color brightness - Blues are not as bright - so on this chart there is less perceived error than on the previous chart.

And indeed anyone who has seen the Infocus SP7210 would probably agree with the last chart - your critical perception based on informed comparison is deeper crimson Reds, OK but paler yellow Greens, and great Blues. An uniformed comparison would simply say "Wow! Bright! Colorful!" But I think you would find few that would say the greens wanted to make you vomit for comparison....that only happens when reviewers look at charts to form subjective comments that are not based on objective perceptual measures.

Good posts Kras.

So I'm guessing that explains why I could get the adjustments correct on my H30 using the red and blue DVE filters but could never get the green right no matter what I did. Several others had the same experience and we (at least I) never did hear a proper explanation as to why. Thanks!

Happy Holidays All!

The filters are checking the brightness of the colors - not the color of colors - but what you found with the RGB filters is that some variations of the primary color are brighter than others.. The color control is adjusting so the blue filtered blue/white has the same blue brightness and tint control is adjusting so the blue filtered cyan/magenta has the same blue brightness - likewise the red and green filters and their associated colors.

So the color filter is designed to check the electronic color decoder - but it is also checking the optical colorwheel brightness as well. So on Infocus SP4805 with the brighter paler yellow Green - or the Optoma H30 with the dimmer deeper blueish Green - the green brightness is not correct on the color wheel - so it matters not if the color decoder circuit is perfect. In fact Infocus designs their color decoder to be imperfect - so that even if RGB are not perfect - it results in a perfect CMY. Sure they could expose the service menus so that you could adjust the primary and secondary brightness to be perfectly aligned thru digital (or DAC) adjustment - but that would cost you overall brightness. The same came be done on spendier machines to correct the color of color as well. It is a design decision that these small color decoding errors are worth the large brightness increases.

Generally I don't get into install issues on PJ I am not hands on familiar with installing myself. I will only say the obvious if you insist on a long throw back wall install - you restrict yourself to long throw PJ - and as you noticed those with flexible throw take a big hit in lumens at longer throws. Ceiling texture scrapes off easily....

One very important thing to note as well ...

These guys reviewing these projectors are also reviewing the $4000, $5000 and $10,000 projectors.

Wether we want to believe it or not ... there is a big difference in performance between these categories. You essencially get what you pay for. There is a reason this projector is thousands less than some other 720p DLP units ... it simply doesn't perform at the same level.

Now, all that said, to the average consumer - yes - the greens look just fine.

As I said earlier - this has nothing to do with price - rather it is the tradeoff made for bright PJ. The Optoma HD81 and Infocus SP7210 do the exact same thing. It is a perceptually small tradeoff in color for a large difference in brightness and it is clear that the reviewer is not aware of perceptual color science. (It is not taught in the ISF seminar!)

Single chip DLP Projectors with an HD spec green simply are not as bright - regardless of cost. It is not like the green segment color variations itself significantly adds to the cost of the colorwheel - beyond any QA being done to make sure they get the color they specify. Those PJs are just simply more expensive because of DMD used, case designs, optical quality, extensive calibration menus etc.

The reviewer intent may have been - you get what you pay for.....but it is not that hard to find spendy PJ with the same "flaw"

Here is the Project Design Action Model2 - a high end brite HT PJ...

http://www.cine4home.com/reviews/pro...on2/Bild46.jpg

I have an HD1000, projecting onto blackout cloth, in low lamp mode, using cinema gamma, connected to an HTPC via DVI-HDMI.

I've played with my HD1000 for about 50 hours now. I've spent at least half that time trying to get rid of an annoying greenish tint in the picture. I saw the green push before I read any of the posts about the "green error" mentioned on hometheaterforum. Before I saw the review on hometheaterforum, I was starting to question my sanity and why after playing with RGB brightness and contrast controls for 25 hours I wasn't able to totally remove the greenish tint from skin tones. At least the aforementioned review provides a possible explanation for what my eyes are seeing, though I don't fully understand the technical explanation in that review and those provided by krasmuzik.

The strange thing is that many movies and images (digital pictures) look great on the HD1000...you'd never suspect that there's any color problem. However, then comes along a movie or set of pictures that makes people look sickly green. One might be tempted to say, 'oh, that's just a bad transfer or poorly taken photo.'

Luckily for me (or unluckily depending on your point of view), I have a pretty good Trinitron CRT monitor hooked up to my HTPC, and I use the clone mode so I can see the same image on the CRT and proj at the same time. The CRT has a preset for sRGB. In my thousands of hours of viewing video and pictures on this CRT, not once have I noticed any type of green push. In fact, to my unprofessional but video-enthusiast eye, I'd say the colors on this monitor are pretty darn accurate. So whenever I see an image on the proj that looks greenish, I quickly glance at the monitor to compare. In all cases, it turns out that the image on the monitor does NOT have that green push...it just looks "right". Therefore, I strongly hesitate to blame any greenish tint on the transfer itself or quality of the photo shot.

If I had to buy a projector all over again, I'd place color accuracy much higher on my list of priorities. Perhaps the HD1000 is a victim of its own high performance, in that the only noticeable problem I have with it is not its brightness or contrast or sharpness, but its green color performance.

tqn, can you give an example of where you see the green push? I'll try to duplicate it here since I have a similar setup. Also, what color temp are you using? "user" with some tweaks? Do you see it in the "warm" setting?

Also, the green color error that is being discussed is not the same thing as "green push" you're describing. Color push is when one color is too bright relative to the other 2 (red, green, blue). Color error is when the color is just not the correct shade. Probably not a very good technical explanation, but the best I've got.

In both talon95 and HTF forums case the grayscale preset had excess green - one also had excess red - the other had also excess blue. The color of gray has nothing to do with the color of Primary Green - as gray is supposed to be RGB balanced to a specific gray called D65 - it does not matter how that balance is done because RGB might have their own error - just that you get it properly balanced. The color of green is simply not the issue here.

There are several types of color error - so do not read a review without understanding this.

1) Grayscale affects secondary colors (including white) enclosed by the CMY gamut - this is correctable with calibration gear. While some on the forum think Mitsubishi has improved their presets to not require calibration - it is clearly not close enough to be imperceivable errors.

2) Color decoding and ColorWheel affect the brightness of colors w.r..t white - this is generally not individually correctable on budget projectors. Just set color control for best overall compromise - usually this is a case of an intentional wrong color decoder (red pushed video) - but be aware on some projectors BrilliantColor affects color brightness.

3) Color decoding affects the tint of secondary colors - usually correctable using the tint control - any further deviations are not generally correctable on budget projectors - but component and digital signals 'should' be inherently correct - some marketers intentionaly have wrong presets to make theirs like different (which they confuse as better)

4) Primary colors on the colorwheel may not be the perfect SD or HD specified color - only the spendiest of projectors have extended color gamuts that allow adjustment of the primaries to standards. Yes I said there are two color standards - and I guarantee your projector is closer to one standard or the other - and is thus further off from the other standard - yet nobody seems to comment on this difference despite it being the same level of error discussed in the review! In fact some calibrators suggest using SD colors to view HD material - which would then make the HD1000 green more acccurate and the deeper green on HC3000 less accurate!! The differences are usually not noticed on HT projectors except in direct comparison - though biz PJ will usually have very bad primary colors.

In this case the grayscale is simply too green and it needs calibrated with calibration gear - it has nothing to do with the color of green.

I would not presume that a Sony just because it is a Triniton that has an sRGB preset is calibrated - usually CRTs presets are way too blue - which means a proper calibration would look too green or red in comparison. If it is a TV forget the comparison - if it is a professional graphics computer monitor - you have a better chance of factory calibration. As a professional calibrator - whenever customer says they have a Sony - I can tell you my experience has been that it will be a long job...

Use your eyes - do Yellow and Cyan look too green? Then cut Green gain some until they look right (assuming you are using a tint correct RGB source).

Jim

The color of primary colors CAN affect a calibrators charts that report pre/post calibration error regarding RGB% off in the D65 grayscale. Software varies on how that percentage was calculated - is it calculated w.r.t. to SD, HD, EBU, NTSC, sRGB standard or actual measured RGB?. This is why such RGB% charts are useless as a calibration comparison measure - despite you seeing this chart in calibration reviews - just remember it is useless for that purpose. The only meaningful information on them is are they on target - if they are off target - it does not tell you anything because it is not a standardized calibration measure. You will have to ask on your softwares support forum how they calculate it.

Thanks for the info thus far, fellas, on the green issue. I'm currently away on vacation and will be for another couple weeks, so I don't have access to the projector, nor the time to sit down and try to digest all the technical details.

I will elaborate a little more on the greens that I see though. I've been pretty loose with my terminology (e.g. green push, green tint) without fully understanding the terms so I'll describe what I see rather than assign a name to it.

1) "neon" green. I'll illustrate with an example. When viewing this photo I took at Banff National Park a couple summers ago, the evergreen trees have a deep green colour on my CRT, but are more limey (lighter shade) on the HD1000.

2) greenish yellows. When viewing a movie or a digital photo containing scenes under a bright midday sun, what should be a nice warm yellow instead has an annoying hint of green.

I use the "user" color temp mode to try to remove all excess green, as the other presets have WAAAAY too much green. I'd say I'm 75% successful in getting the colors to my liking, meaning that I see "green scenes" 75% less often than before. I haven't yet found a way to fix all the green scenes though without absolutely destroying the color balance; that is, without making the image very blue or very red.

Viewing the dealer's demo unit for an hour before my purchase, I also saw a little of the "greenish yellow" but wasn't too concerned at the tiime as I thought I could easily fix it. So I don't think I have an abnormal (defective) unit.

Regarding my Trinitron tube, I don't claim that it's The Professional's Reference Display, but I can say that after viewing thousands of digital photos of people and places with which I am very familiar, not once have I been bothered by any sort of color inaccuracy. However, when viewing the same images on the HD1000, I often think to myself, "Why is that person's skin green?". (BTW, my CRT also has a 5000K and 9000K preset, and those are very red and very blue, respectively, with the sRGB preset a subjectively pleasant balance somewhere between those two extremes.)

Hopefully in the new year, I will return with new found technical knowledge, and some screenshots or at least references to scenes of movies where I see the green problems I describe (if I am able to dig this thread out from the bottom of the pile

Jimwhite,
This is two threads now where you have stated the HD1000U has some sort of green coloration problem. Do you have an agenda?

Read the professional reviews! Or, read the in depth reviews of those on this forum who have spent a lot of time with the machine. it has very accurate colors, out of the box, which can be made more so with slight calibration.

Take a look at the EXCELLENT images in this page, with the comments from reviewer Art Sonnenborn -

http://projectorreviews.com/Manufact...agequality.asp


Here is a quote, for those too lazy to click -

By now you should appreciate that the HD1000U produces overall, an excellent image. Fleshtones and colors in general are very accurate even right out of the box, without any tweaking of the settings. While black levels are very acceptable, they cannot match the best of class, which are more expensive DLP projectors, without the clear filter on the color wheel, and those that may also have a dynamic iris. the Mitsubishi HC3000 comes immediately to mind, being very similar, except that it does have an iris, and only a six segment wheel. In tradeoff, the HD1000U is definitely brighter!

I am pleased for all you out there in the market, that, for less than a thousand dollars, there is now a projector, that overall, performs this well. Certainly my old BenQ 8700+ from a year and a half ago, couldn't compare in color accuracy, shadow detail, and certainly not in brightness, yet it was selling (if I recall correctly) for more than $3000 in mid-2005!

The best part is jimwhite complains about the greens and he does not own any projector yet. He derived this conclusion solely based on 1 review he read online. Thus, jimwhite should just 1) buy the HD70 locally and risk the restocking fee (15%), 2) buy the HD1000u online and risk shipping fee but no restocking fee (spinitar lets you try it for 72hrs without restocking fee), 3) stop crossposting on all these green issues that he has not even seen for himself, 4) read other reviews, learn more, and have an open mind, 5) buy a direct view like CRT, LCD, or plasma and forget FPTV, 6) spend more money and get a "nicer" projector that he's more comfortable with

1)

Generally neon green means a green that is too brite not necessarily a different shade of green. But in this case a yellower green is chosen because it makes for a brighter projector. But I suspect you are also seeing a too brite green - as in they are glowing - like neon - that is actually problem #2 - an excess of green makes greens too bright and cyan, white and yellows too green.

Your real problem is something that all photographers must face - video itself regardless of SD or HD has a very limited gamut - and is not capable of deep forest greens. This is why AdobeRGB cameras and displays exist - to capture the deeper natural greens - but that photo standard has never been applied to video.

Interestingly the original NTSC1953 spec which AdobeRGB is close to also does the deeper forest greens - but nobody ever implemented a TV that way because they were not very brite. The consensus now is on SMPTE-C colors for SD which is much more of a yellow green - and HD extends it only a bit deeper green (sRGB is similar)

2)

That is an indication that your grayscale presets are too green assuming you have correct tint in your video decoding. Is cyan also too green?

#2 can be fixed by grayscale calibration (though by eye is not that easy!) - #1 cannot. Even if you bought the HC3100 - which is closer to the deeper HD green - HD itself cannot capture a forest green. And we have no idea what your Sony green is for comparison - likely it is a more blue green - possible an error itself - even if it did pull you closer to forest green - it would not be correct per video standard.

I think you would be better off getting the HC3100 or HC3000 - since this issue will clearly bug you. Just be prepared for half the brightness if you use the iris - only a bit less if you don't use the iris. It will likely cost you more (irises are expensive). That is very close to the HD green which is the best you can do - since AdobeRGB is not supported in video.

Interestingly enough I made that same recommendation to someone in the spendier forum - who is returning his Sony Pearl for the oppposite of this problem - as a photographer he does not like the Sony Pearls deeper candy colors because he knows what HD should look like - and colorizing it does not make it better - even if his snapshots look closer to his Adobe setup - it makes video look worse. He wants to match the reference HD - something he has seen with his former calibrated Samsung.

TSO

While Art is the guy behind PJ reviews - Art Sonnenborn is an AVSer from the CRT forum with a double stack of Sony G90 projection CRTs (bought when they were money no object pricing) who would be highly offended that you even suggested he looked at a $1K cheap digital.....Interesting point Art made about the BenQ - it also had the orangey reds - which perceptually are much more noticable than yellow greens.

Do you still have the HC3000 vs. HD1000 for side by side to comment on the greens - as this is something you never commented on in your shootout - I suspect it is something you have never even noticed - again perceptually they are not as far apart as that calibrators review charts would suggest - as the proper color science shows.

I know I can detect it in a side by side - we did the IN76 vs Mitsu HC3000 - but I had to point it out for other people to notice it - and that was after putting an ND3 filter on the IN76 to equalize the brightness - otherwise the Mitsu colors looked weaker (they were just darker)! And they all said if they needed the brightness - that perceptually that 10% green difference would be a non-issue - it is not 30-40% like the older CIE charts delude you into thinking!!

jim

While I am a trained professional - feel free to try this at home with your own shootouts. Take advantage of return policies - use your own eyes. A return fee on an HD1000 is a bit of a risk if you have to get an HC3000 (and maybe the vendor will waive if you rebuy) - but if you are happy with it you just saved some bills. The ones that have made the comparison stuck with the HD1000 because it was better for their bigger or lower gain screen - much more important than a green "issue" that they never even noticed in their shootouts. While you are at it you can also "rent" an HD70 so that you can see if you can see differences in calibrated performance and uncalibrated presets or not.

Better late than never. Try Kill Bill Vol 1. Two scenes for you -- at 45:35 (Hattori's sushi restaurant) and 1:14:00 onward (big fight at the big restaurant). Use color temp preset of medium. It looks as though there's mold growing on the walls of the sushi restaurant. In the fight starting at 1:14:00, look at the bride's hair color...it should be blonde but on my HD1000 it looks like she dyed it slightly green.

Note that it may be difficult to notice the green push if you don't have another display to look at, at the same time, for reference. Our eyes and brain do a pretty good job of adjusting for any color push, methinks. When I watch the above scenes on the HD1000, I get this subtle feeling that the color isn't quite right. And if I didn't have the Sony monitor sitting beside me, I probably wouldn't think too much of the color being off. However, when I do glance sideways at the monitor, then I think to myself, "Ahhh, now that color looks right...there's no mold on the walls and the bride's hair is indeed blonde."

Kras, thanks for the info on the "neon green" and "greenish yellows" that I see. It does make sense. At this point, though, I'm not about to return the HD1000. I think I can live with the tradeoff of extra brightness for excess green. Who knows, perhaps after the bulb dims, the color balance will become more natural.


I connect via DVI-HDMI from a HTPC, so the tint should be correct (I can't adjust it on the proj anyway even if it wasn't correct. And I won't give up the sharpness in the digital connection and go component). I compared the standard color bars on the HD1000 to my CRT, and to my eyes I didn't notice any meaningful color difference. However, I wonder whether the color of those color bars is the correct "shade" to expose the green issue. For example, the green on the color bar is quite limey (even on the CRT). I assume if that green bar was a darker shade (like forest), then I would see that it would be deeper on the CRT and more limey on the projector.