*** The Official APERION Thread *** - Page 101

Can you get your 805 back? Sounds like you downgraded your receiver, when you thought you were upgrading. Having an 805 myself, and knowing how well it runs my Aperions, I assume you were happy as well????

+1-I agree with Scott, get your 805 back

Right it's no secret, we publish the sensitivity spec right on our website and if you talk to me in person about the 6B I'll be upfront and tell you that an AVR like the 805 is really the minimum that you'll need to drive them well.

Firstly, this is a wonderful thread! Just have to get that out of the way.

Now, I'm looking to get the 5T-DB Hybrid HD system which I'm planning on driving with an Onkyo 876, which I assume should be just fine to power these babies.

My question is with the placement of the sub and the 5DB's. My room has these little "decorative wall bumps" that point directly at the listener's head. Unfortunately, mounting the surrounds on those bumbs would turn them into unsightly lumps which would not be GF approved.

As a result, I need to place the surrounds right behind the bumps which would place the speakers behind the listener...not much mind you...no more than a foot behind the listener. Also, the bumps only stick out about 6 inches, so I'm assuming the speaker cones themselves wont be blocked in any way by the bump.

My questions is, so long as the speakers are placed the recommended 2 feet above the listener, will the 5DB's be worth it? Also, if anyone has a better place to put my sub, please let me know...I'm fresh out of ideas.

Attached is a hamhanded diagram of my room and where everything is projected to go. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Edit : If the attachment is too small, let me know...I thought I saved it as a .bmp

Hello and welcome to the forum,

The 5DBs are only 7.5 inches deep so your 6 inch bumps will be blocking a good portion of the woofer, so if the room has to be set up like your diagram they aren't going to work for you.

If the GF won't allow you to mount them on the bumps, how about pushing the couch back a couple feet so you have a nice clean section of wall to mount them to your sides?

Otherwise you will be better off with a front firing speaker like the 5B or 4B.

Also in your diagram it says that the rear surrounds will be at about the height of a 5T, which is 38", and ideal rear surround height is more in the 5-6 foot range if possible.

Hope that helps, thanks!

Thanks for the tips!

The mounting on the bumps wouldn't be a big deal if the speakers are only 7.5 inches deep...I thought they were deeper than that. If a decent placement could be 7 feet off the ground, just so we don't have to duck them to get the to back area, that might be sellable. Just be aware, that the listener would be almost directly across fro mthe surrounds...is that a good place to be for those speakers? I don't know much about bi-pole / di-pole technology.

Also, the couch needs to stay put as the back area has a bookshelf and is used by us. If we move the couch back, we really don't have a great way of getting back there, outside of vaulting the couch (which, as fun as that sounds, wouldn't be ideal :-D )

So, it's sounding like if I can mount the 5DB's on the bump, about 7 feet up, that would the optimal position. Tell me if I'm wrong!

Also, I didn't realize the 5T's were that short, which isn't a problem. The rear surrounds would be about 6 feet off the ground although there is a clean back wall I could mount them to, if 7 feet is more desirable. Is it OK if the 5T's are on the floor and the rears are a few feet above them?

Also, any thoughts on the sub placement?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

You're not alone, for some reason folks always get the impression that the 5DB is larger than it is in reality.

Ideal is placement is indeed directly to your side so the flat part of the speaker is lined up with your ear between 5-7 feet so it sounds like your placement is going to be perfect.

Having the the tweeters for your front speakers be at ear level, around three feet or so, and the tweeters for your rear surrounds be 5-6 feet is ideal placement, so you are all set there.

As for sub placement it looks good, but the only issue is that having too close to that corner may make it a bit boomy, so you may want to move it forward by a few inches and give it about six inches to each side if you can too.

True, however the 6C/Ts are a different story.

Woe for the man w/o a cave of his own.

Anyone who has the 4BPs care to give me your two-cents? Mr. Hicks, your opinion would be apreciated also. I'm debating on the 4Bs vs the 4BPs for a rectangluar room that is 12' by 24'. I can mount the BPs in their optimal spot, but I am wary of doing damage to the walls with mounting (I rent) and I can't conceal the wires very well (I rent!). I also listen to a lot of music on my setup, maybe around 60/40 music/movies. I noticed that though the BPs extend lower (80hz by spec) they can't go as high (18khz vs the 4B's 22khz). Would that have a negative effect on multi channel music? Also, I do a lot of gaming as well. Would I be better off with the more imersive, yet more diffuse surround of the 4BPs, or would the 4Bs let me pin-point that cheeky knife wielding fellow in Call of Duty? Any thoughts are appreciated.

I sold my 805 because I'm having a house built and wanted to get some extra cash. I figured I'd just use my HK 247 for awhile. I'm aware of the difference between an 805 and a 247. The HK has pre-outs and my plan is to eventually get an Emotiva XPA-3 to use with the HK 247 to power the front soundstage. While reading about amps I learned and now understand how important sensitivity is for speakers. 82 dbs on the 6B is awful. The guys in the Emotiva thread couldn't believe it and suggested I sell the Aperions, get efficient speakers and then you don't even need an amp.

Not one of those reviews is for the 6B which has a very poor efficiency rating. Your cannot drive 6Bs with a 247. I'll need an amp to keep them.

Didn't understand sensitivity at the time when I purchased. Just read the reviews and purchased. The 805 had enough power and I've been very happy with the speakers but now that the 805 is gone I have to figure out how to power these inefficient speakers.

wal-dog, you're certainly welcome to think what you wish, but the truth of the matter is different people will want to focus on different aspects of a speaker's performance, and for different reasons. Sensitivity is just one factor in how well your amp can handle a given speaker. Is 82db on the low side? Sure. However, these speakers play much clearer and cleaner than anything in their price range. They even manage to keep the dynamic range decently uncompressed, a feat with such a low sensitivity. Given the correct amplification these speakers can play plenty loud, also. Next are you going to go and tell all of the owners of ESLs that their choice of speaker "sucks" because it uses extra power, too?

Of course Emotiva and their forum goers would suggest you sell your Aperions. They're a competitor. As far as "not even needing an amp" goes, that statement is preposterous on numerous grounds. Getting low quality amps in an AVR often goes hand in hand with getting poor quality electronics and processing.

If you just want something that plays loud coming off of a hamster-in-a-wheel of an amp, then join the ranks of the horn loaded speaker faithful. Paradigm and Klipsch would be good brands for you to consider. I'm sure there would be plenty here who would be happy to relieve you of your Aperion setup.

Just next time, if you're going to yank the engine out of a Corvette and sub in the guts from a Toyota Echo, please don't go telling all the Chevy owners out there that the car sucks.

Really, I don't understand the thought process here. Had good amplification, was very happy, switched to amps that were a poor match for the speakers, so... now it's the speaker's fault?

Thank you for your response. You make some good points.

I like my Aperion speakers very much and am proud to own them. Like I said, running the HK 247 is just temporary and while it is definately no power house it is not a "hamster-in-a-wheel" of an amp. Remember, HK rates there AVRs with all channels driven. So 50w x 7 for HK = more like 90 watts for Onkyo and probably 120 watts for Sony who way over rates its watts specs. Also if your just running 2 channels it goes up to 65w x 2. I'm just a little dissapointed that Aperion made a speaker this inefficient. I know its a great speaker. I've owned them over a year.

To understand how much power you need look at the chart of the 6B vs the
6T which has a very respectible efficiency of 91. You need 1 watt of power to produce 82dbs of sound from a 6B at 1 meter away. You need to double the power for every 3dbs you go up in volume.


6B
Watts - SPL
1 - 82
2 - 85
4 - 88
8 - 91
16 - 94
32 - 97
64 - 100
128 - 103

6T
Watts -SPL
1 - 91
2 - 94
4 - 97
8 - 100
16 - 103
32 - 106
64 - 109
128 - 112

You need 8 times more power to push a 6B as you do to power a 6T. So as you can see that "hamster-in-a-wheel amp" can push a 6T just fine but it can't push a 6B. This is why I'm a little upset.

Good point. It is the speakers fault.

Why don't you buy an SC-05/07 or an SC-25/27 AVR?

Pioneer's Elite line of receivers w/ICEpower® Class-D amplifiers have been getting rave reviews from their owner's for years... and my SC-07 drives my Intimus 6T-DB Hybrid XD 7.1 speaker system just fine.

I never recommend products to others that I would not want to, or do, own myself.

It seems incongruous to me that an individual would buy a high-end speaker package to go along with a lower-end AVR.

I have the 4BPs in my 5.1 setup and while it really doesn't sound to me like they would be ideal for you (It's my understanding that bipoles are better suited to movies than music and you favor music), I don't think any of your concerns will really be a problem with the exception of multi channel music. Again, what I've read would mean that bipoles are not as good as direct firing speakers for multi channel music because they slightly distort the soundstage the engineer intended.

I rent (always have), and generally hang/mount a decent amount of items like shelves, speakers, pictures, etc... All places expect you to do this. I used the Omni ceiling mounts for my 4BPs because I didn't have walls available on the sides to mount, but the hardware that came with the BPs looked easy enough. You might need to get wall anchors (I forget if they were included or not) if you don't have a stud to screw them into. As for wires, you could try using various wire hiding items. I only had one major wire to hide and bought a couple of hinged raceways from here: http://www.cabletiesandmore.com/SurfaceRaceway.php
Cost about $30 with shipping for enough stuff to cover 15' across my ceiling.

Now on to the good stuff. These things are awesome for movies. I've watched at least one Bluray (almost all movies I know very well too) every day since I got them last Saturday, and this is what I've noticed: For ambient music and sounds like rain, they are subtle but enveloping. For explosions like the elevator bomb in The Matrix, the fire is so engulfing it gave me chills. Also noticed this in Speed on TV, when the first bus blew up. A lot of that is LFE, but the 4BPs anchor it around you (I have them crossed over at 100Hz, so not sure about the extra 20Hz down to 80Hz). In other movies with more directional surround, like bullets whizzing or helicopter panning, they provided more than enough discrete sound to locate things and follow them. It really is an amazing balance between diffuse and directionality.

I haven't had a chance to really play much video games, but given the directionality that I still feel is present in movie soundtracks, I think they would be ok for locating that creeper in COD. And they should make certain other scenes where the sound is supposed to be all around (like a helicopter landing) just incredible.

Let me do some head to head listening between the 4BP and 4B and I'll get back to you, hopefully later today.

Boy you sure jumped on that opportunity to get out of work and kick back in the showroom!

Cheers

Ha, anything to get out of slaving away on the forums!

wal-dog, thank you for making your argument in an easy to understand and civil manner. I mean that with absolutly no sarcasm, I see the potential for a discussion like this to devolve into flames quickly. Thus, I'm glad to see you're not coming into Aperion's "house" on AVS to just fume.

The colorful comment about the Rube Goldberg esque rodent-alternator combo wasn't really directed at the HK specifically, just trying to hammer home a point. I know the HKs are pretty decent; I used to sell them. So basically, your situation boils down to this: the HK is the best you will be able to work with for a while due to the current money situation. Assumedly, if you had available funds to buy a new receiver as the others are suggesting, you wouldn't have sold the 805 in the first place. About right so far?

So, how can we get the impact back out of those 6Bs without spending too much money? Seems to be the million dollar question. Maybe you could run the 6Bs in stereo until budget allows for the XPA-3 that you wanted to purchase? You'd sacrifice surround for a while, but as you said earlier, that would free up a few more watts for the hungry 6Bs. Alteratively, run the 4Bs up front in a 3.1. I'd think them a bit overmatched by the 6C, but that could work with the added sensitivity. Lastly, how much have you played with the levels on the HK? Can you just bump each of the fronts up a few notches and the rest of the speakers down? It might be a little off sounding, but that way when the sound peaks the amp wouldn't have a push across all chanels.

I called Aperion Audio yesterday and spoke to one of their representatives about a system I am considering buying in a few months. I'm not currently a customer and was clear that I'm not buying now and haven't decided on Aperion. Despite that, the rep (I wish I remembered his name) spent 15 or 20 minutes talking to me about my needs. He even went so far as to tell me he though a Bravus 10D sub would probably satisfy me and I didn't need to spend the money (or battle the WAF) on a 12D. It's not very often someone tells you the cheaper option would work. That is great customer service and will weigh on my purchase decision.

What are the Pioneers going for? I can't say I bought the speakers to go with a lower end AVR. I bought them to go with an Onkyo 805. I got a good price for the 805. $550, so I sold it. I think it makes more sense to pick up an Emotiva XPA-3. 200w per channel of continuous all channels driven power. There $574 shipped brand new.

They are great folks there and they really try to do what is best for the customer. Oh and by the way, they have great speakers as well!

Cheers

No I think you're right. Wait for the XPA-3. I own an SC-05, though I like it quite a bit, based on what Browninggold has said about his 6Ts on the XPA-3, I'd just spend the money on that.

By the way, great chart about the sensitivity, really demonstrates the difference well. However, remember that distance to the listening position is a big factor, too. To say that it takes eight times the power is misleading. Just think about how loud 82db really is. Reference volume is 75db. Just running the numbers through a really basic SPL calculator (google search for SPL calculator), with a listening position of 12ft off of five speakers you should only lose 11.3db due to dispersion. That would even be with five speakers at 82db sensitive running on 50wpc. That's a total of 94.7db at the listening position. That brings me to another point; try moving the 6Bs around, see if that helps.

sticks1839, thanks for the feedback! So you think that the 4BPs would still give me a good ability to pin point my opponents, eh? Sounds good. As for the multi channel music, I don't run DVD-A or anything, mostly Blu-rays of concerts and the mutli channel mixes that occasionally come in those dual-disc digipak sort of things. Thank you Dream Theater for mixing Mike Portnoy in 5.1!

Ok, I got to do a little A/Bing of the 4Bs and 4BPs for music, used some Led Zeppelin and Sarah McLachlan for opposite ends of the musical spectrum and it really is a trade off between the two speakers.

Obviously the surround effect is quite a bit more dramatic in the 4BP, but for music I found that the extra low end of the BP was both noticeable and beneficial.

But the high end had a "phase-y" sound to it, kind of like it was breaking up a little, most likely due to the highs from each tweeter reaching my ears at different times due to the reflections. I highly doubt it was due to the actual frequency response since I've tested my ears before and I myself can't hear above 17K or so. But I wouldn't say that the phase-y quality was to the point that I couldn't stand it or that it ruined my listening experience. Also I was listening to them by themselves and it's likely that the highs from the other speakers would fill in what I was hearing in a multi-channel music scenario.

So if it were me, I'd probably go with the 4BPs, since they have a big time advantage for surround effects and at 40% of your usage that's fairly significant. Plus I don't think that the small high frequency disadvantage for music that I noticed would be a deal breaker.

Hope that helps!

i have noticed a lot of people customize their aperion speaker set in this forum. but i have noticed anyone with the 5T intimus grand xd. i was eyeing that system. just curious if anyone had it and their thoughts on 4 towers. also would the denon 3310 work well with that system?

Mr. Hicks, as always, thank you for your insight. I have ordered a pair of 4BPs. I will keep you all updated.