*** The Official APERION Thread *** - Page 104

Originally Posted by Hicks

You can use whatever measurement tools, software or audio theory that you care to, but the fact is I've heard the 6Ts crossed over at 80 and run as full range and my ears prefer them run as full band. In comparison, they sound tinny to me when crossed over at 80.

Originally Posted by Pitch Shift

penngray, thank you for your insight into the nature of frequency response and crossover settings. I do have a few questions for you. Obviously you have a good knowledge of the science and mechanics of sound. However, have you considered that the nature of your posts in this thread could be considered by some here (I would proffer most) as rather condescending? I'm sure you can find a way to make your points without being so rude.

Second question; Have you listened to any Aperion speakers? Many well respected "audiophile" reviews have noted, many, many times, that benchmarks don't tell the whole story, and that a listening, or subjective test is required to assess a speaker's overall "sound quality". Playback magazine gave the 6T a recommended buy award in a 2.0 setup. Steve Guttenberg claims the bass response (presumably run full range) was "big and taut" with "overall low levels of distortion" (paraphrased).

While I for one believe very strongly in the importance of objectivity, and testing and setup methodologies that are scientific and standardized, I don't feel that completely invalidates a subjective approach. You may have frequency response graphs, room calibration equipment, and all manner of audio theory, but you don't have a graph or measurement for how much enjoyment you are getting. There is no scientific yardstick for "fun" yet. Enjoying the setup or not enjoying the setup is the single, most important aspect of a home theater. I don't think you can dispute that.

So please consider that when you make borderline insulting comments about how "accurate" a setup is or which "facts" someone chooses to ignore. Professionals like Jason Hicks peruse these forums in order to assist us, often providing advise to those who aren't even their customers. When he says "try it both ways and see which you like", I think he's giving the best possible advise, don't you? Especially given how familiar he and his engineering team must be with the product that they sell.

Originally Posted by Hicks

Also I think penngray is missing a big piece of the puzzle in that the graph accurately depicts the freq response of the speaker, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it accurately describes the way we perceive sound.

Or to put it another way, the two processes below may not be analogous:

source>amp>speaker>microphone>computer>graph

source>amp>speaker>ear>brain>perception

Given how little we know about how our brain processes stimuli and the nature of perception in general, it seems highly likely that the graph represents merely a gross approximation of our actual experience of perceiving sound.

Since it's the best we have given our current technology, things like freq response graphs are indeed useful tools, but to think that they tell the whole story, and somehow invalidate empirical observation (a tenant of science as well!), is misguided in my opinion.

Originally Posted by optivity

The Intimus 6T owner's guide says the "THX recommended setting for this speaker is small."

But "if you prefer, you may also set this speaker to Large to send it the full bandwidth of sound."

Originally Posted by uhcoogsfan

I don't understand why one would buy nice tower speakers that are capable of producing bass and set them to small. I'm not trying to start something just asking as a simple question trying to learn. To me when I set the 6T's to small I seem to lose a lot, sound wise. It seems to me why not buy smaller speakers and save money and space as one is not taking advantage of a big speakers full capability. Thanks!

Originally Posted by penngray

The 6Ts are rated to only 36Hz, correct? So if that is true they are not even considered full range speakers and if someone is running them full range they are lacking serious performance below 40Hz. I wouldn't consider these speakers worthy of LARGE settings. Its actually dangerous to send them signals below 36Hz, they are ported designs and you will "unload" the woofers below that frequency but Im sure they are protected below with internal filters.

Originally Posted by Hicks

I'm not going to get involved in the debate of whether crossing the 6Ts over at 80 Hz or running them as large sounds better as I do think it's subjective to a large degree.

I will say that I do not believe that sending a full range signal to the 6Ts is dangerous. I can't recall a single instance that someone has blown a woofer in the 6T and many of our customers do run them as large or fullband.

Originally Posted by penngray

Not when it comes to crossovers, you are very misguided if you think your ear is an accurate tool....why not ask Kal or Chris or any one other member you think is an expert. I will wait for that response

its a simple fact that your ear and brain will never be able to create a better crossover then measurement tools....Ask Mark Seaton about that or one of the 20 speaker builders that post on this site.

Originally Posted by uhcoogsfan

I understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is the ear and brain are the tools I use to listen to music (as it is for all of us) and it is these tools that determine WHAT SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! Just because some guidelines say to set at the optimum point does not mean it sounds good me. As I had posted in an earlier post my Pioneers MAAC's auto calibration may have calibrated by the guidelines, but the sound sucked. There was no life in the sound, it was flat and tinny. There was no way in hell I was going to keep listening to that. I paid good hard earned money for my equipment and I am going to enjoy it. I have listened to a lot of music over the years and I know how instruments should sound. The science is all good but it does not account for individuality, there is more than science involved in listening to music. And that is what I believe that Mr. Hicks is saying. There is no one here arguing against the science they are including individual taste, or how we perceive sound. This is something your instruments do not account for. There is more to the puzzle than either the science side or the individuality side.

I believe you have a lot of good information to say at times but you do come across as D$CK at times. Whether intended or not I do not know nor do I want to guess. But lighten up for God's sake. Your attack on Mr Hicks was uncalled for. The one thing he understands is that people do use their ears to determine what sounds good to them. And that there is both science and individuality involved in this.

Originally Posted by Roger That

penngray,

It seems as though you're not interested in acknowledging that there are varying levels of interest when it comes to this hobby. Not everyone has the dedication that you do, and simply seek to enjoy on their own terms. Are you unwilling to accept that?

For the same reasons that we can choose to "read, learn, discuss, or just ignore," I invite you to please recognize that should folks in here choose the latter, there's no need to keep furthering your argument. Would you be willing to allow us our ignorance?

In reading your posts in this thread, I feel like you've made your point. If you haven't completed making it, would you please do so, and then proceed to the next thread in which you state your brilliance? We'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

I don't understand why one would buy nice tower speakers that are capable of producing bass and set them to small. I'm not trying to start something just asking as a simple question trying to learn. To me when I set the 6T's to small I seem to lose a lot, sound wise. It seems to me why not buy smaller speakers and save money and space as one is not taking advantage of a big speakers full capability. Thanks!

Originally Posted by penngray

if they just use their ears they have little value if any at all in a discussion why certain speakers should be crossed over and not run set as LARGE.

I will let the self-described audiophile non-science crowd get back to their little world now, I wouldnt want education to get in the way of average listening experiences currently upheld here as good.

Originally Posted by Browninggold

Wow.....I have a Denon 3808ci with the 100 dollar upgrade for Multeq Audyssey. I have a decent sub and 85% of the time I listen to 2 channel music with the 6Ts set to full band, no eq. Movies I use Audyssey and set speakers to small. It all sounds great to me. But according to penn I am doing it wrong...oh well-I use to buy Fords all the time, but the last 2 vehicles I purchased were Toyotas. So I guess just shoot me and get it over with.

Originally Posted by BeckMule

I'm assuming there's a computer program that would normalize the differences between these types of guitars and generate an answer based only on scientifically measurable criteria.