*** The Official APERION Thread *** - Page 159

Originally Posted by jonLavs

So, when you say improvement, what improvement are you talking about? I just don't understand what improvement adding an amp would do considering I have an AVR that does 120Wpc? Additionally, you are now connecting the amp through an analog output of the AVR which may result in some signal degradation.

Please explain as I know a lot of people swear by an external amp, but why?

Originally Posted by stash64

My Pioneer Elite SC-27 is rated even higher at 140 Watts per channel, and supposedly with all channels driven. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the Pioneer's amp and the Emotiva XPA-5 I recently purchased. Even my Rotel amp rated at 100 W per channel produced greater volume and detail than the Pioneer's internal amp.

There are several factors you need to consider. One, ratings on AVR's are often over-stated compared to stand-alone amps and just don't hold up when driving all channels continuously. You need to compare apples to apples but that is very hard to do when looking at AVR specs. Second, AVR's are simply asked to do too much and I believe the power supplies in most (if not all) AVR's are a weak point. Freeing up the AVR to do just processing unburdens the power supply. Third is a quality factor. You simply can't expect the amplifier components in a typical AVR to match the quality of the components in a dedicated amplifier. The AVR is a jack of all trades and master of none.

Also not sure what you mean by signal degradation using an AVR's pre-outs. How is this any different than what goes on internally in the AVR or if using a stand-alone pre-pro ?

If you doubt it, why not just try an external amp for yourself ? Emotiva has a very liberal return policy if you decide it does not provide a signficant improvement.

On a side note, I am sad to say that I've moved away from Aperion (except for my 6C center channel). I was really happy with my 6T's and 5T's in all but one respect. Midrange, detail, and soundstage were all great but I was always a little disappointed with the bass output of the 6T's (especially given their size). I was hoping Aperion would come out with a big brother 3-way design to the 6T but the Verus Grand is more like a little brother 3-way. Anyway, I will probably be posting the 6T's and 5T's for sale here soon if anyone is interested and will probably sell for half of new price.

Originally Posted by stash64

My Pioneer Elite SC-27 is rated even higher at 140 Watts per channel, and supposedly with all channels driven. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the Pioneer's amp and the Emotiva XPA-5 I recently purchased. Even my Rotel amp rated at 100 W per channel produced greater volume and detail than the Pioneer's internal amp.

There are several factors you need to consider. One, ratings on AVR's are often over-stated compared to stand-alone amps and just don't hold up when driving all channels continuously. You need to compare apples to apples but that is very hard to do when looking at AVR specs. Second, AVR's are simply asked to do too much and I believe the power supplies in most (if not all) AVR's are a weak point. Freeing up the AVR to do just processing unburdens the power supply. Third is a quality factor. You simply can't expect the amplifier components in a typical AVR to match the quality of the components in a dedicated amplifier. The AVR is a jack of all trades and master of none.

Also not sure what you mean by signal degradation using an AVR's pre-outs. How is this any different than what goes on internally in the AVR or if using a stand-alone pre-pro ?

If you doubt it, why not just try an external amp for yourself ? Emotiva has a very liberal return policy if you decide it does not provide a signficant improvement.

On a side note, I am sad to say that I've moved away from Aperion (except for my 6C center channel). I was really happy with my 6T's and 5T's in all but one respect. Midrange, detail, and soundstage were all great but I was always a little disappointed with the bass output of the 6T's (especially given their size). I was hoping Aperion would come out with a big brother 3-way design to the 6T but the Verus Grand is more like a little brother 3-way. Anyway, I will probably be posting the 6T's and 5T's for sale here soon if anyone is interested and will probably sell for half of new price.

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

so how do they sound with the grills off?

Originally Posted by jonLavs

I don't think I would go this far. The AVR is still decoding the sound from digital to analog and then doing any digital processing you want (i.e. stretching a 2 channel music to 7.1 music). I noticed a difference in the quality of the sound when moving from my old Sony AVR which was an older model ($500) to my current Onkyo 875 AVR. The Onkyo originally retailed for $1500. Using the same speakers, I noticed the quality difference especially when using any digital processing. If I used any DSP mode, it would sound more muffled on the Sony. So unfortunately, you will still need to get a higher end AVR to get all the good features and sound.

Originally Posted by UPWF Vizion

So I started out with the 4t's and 5c, ended up sending in the 4's and getting the 5's. The guys were great at Aperion and easy to work with. The 5t's gave me a slight improvement in bass and some added midrange, although I do run them crossed at 80 hz.

But the best improvement I have made is adding the Emo UPA-5 to the set up and fine tuning my MCACC cal with a SPL meter. For those running the Pio 1120 with the 5ts, 5c - I gotta say I did find an improvement when I allowed the UPA-5 to takeover all of my amplification needs (thank god I didn't get the XPA-5 it would have blown my doors off). Also take into consideration I am running the Emo Erd-1's as surrounds -those are 4 ohm speakers which the Pio 1120 is not rated for.

I finally took the plunge on the amp after Jason Hicks was able to offer his opinion on my situation - So I just wanted to say thank you - It added that extra 5% I wanted out of the 5t's and gave the oomph for my surrounds to really make the speakers I have a "system".

Now if I could only convince my wife we need a projector........

Originally Posted by BESLC

Initial impressions:

The two VGT's and VGC arrived first thing this morning via FedEx. The speakers were well packed to protect them in shipment, inside the shipping boxes all speakers were sealed in velvet bags, which is standard Aperion packaging. Having purchased several Aperion's in the past, I appreciate their care in protecting the speakers.

As each speaker was removed from the velvet bags, I was struck by how beautiful the cabinets are, mine are in Gloss Black. The new design of the Verus is striking, the pictures really don't do them justice. I really like the taper of the cabinets and the rear porting. The new design is very refined, truly setting a new standard in the Aperion line-up.

Setup is very easy, the towers have two metal feet which attach to the base of the speakers. Included hardware, the speaker feet, screws, allen wrench and spikes. Since I have hardwood floors, I am not using the spikes, I placed felt strips on the feet to protect the floors and to provide some vibration isolation between floor and speakers. The felt seems to do a great job in addressing both issues.

The smaller footprint of the Verus VGT's is a real plus. To have a speaker that offers so much without having the large footprint is something I really appreciate. I know we all struggle with space and speaker placement when dealing with a large floor standing speaker, the VGT's make life much easier in this regard with their design and footprint.

There are Bi-Amp connectors on the back, I opted for a straight standard connection with no Bi-Amp or bi-wire hook up.

I have only had the VG's hooked up for a very short time, however their quality was immediately apparent, the sound is pure and dynamic. I am hearing tones and sound that was not apparent before. The center channel is amazing, as good as my 5C was, the VGC exceeded my expectations leaving me thinking I had never appreciated how a great center channel speaker should sound. I am using 5T's for surround speakers.

The combination of the VG's and the 5T's seems to be an excellent match, the room is filled with sound that immerses you.

I haven't really pushed the speakers, they have only been running about an hour now. I have no doubt they can handle everything I can throw at them and deliver superb sound consistently.

I will try to do an updated review when they have some time on them and I have had the opportunity to try different listening modes and content.

Originally Posted by WinterScene

Well unfortunately I am listening to a lot of silence lately and not because I am waiting for upgraded speakers.

My just under three year old Bravus 10D started emitting some really horrible deep noise as though it was picking up a power signal and really boosting it - made listening to anything pointless. I used the LCD to reset it and all was well for a short time and then after having the Bravus turned off for a few days I turned it back on only to hear that horrible noise again. When I went to try and reset the unit I found that the LCD which had always been dim was now unreadable.

I e-mailed Aperion on 11/5 and got a response back on 11/8. Decided to ship the unit back as it was still under warranty. I shipped the unit 11/12 FedEx ground and it showed up at Aperion on 11/18. It is now 12/14 and still no news...so I've been without a great subwoofer (in terms of its bass output) now for a month. I basically refuse to watch movies or listen to music without it as the sound just would not be the same.

I just wish Aperion did a trade-up on subwoofers as I would gladly pay the difference to get hold of the Bravus II 10D and thereby get it before Xmas.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by BESLC

I appreciate your comments. The main reason I asked the question about a good AMP versus a good A/V receiver for sound, is there seems to be favorable opinions on both sides of this issue. Yet, I am having difficulty finding an unbiased view on which is best.

. On the receiver side of the issue the thinking is, a good A/V receiver can deliver high quality sound as well as handling the video tasks, therefore an amp is not necessary. When I am talking about a good A/V receiver, I am speaking of a receiver that has true rated video and audio specs necessary to provide excellent sound and video content.

On the AMP side of the argument , the thinking is that a receiver can not deliver the same high quality sound as a dedicated AMP can. The reasoning being that a receiver is multitasking, it may be able to do a good job in all areas, just not a great job with audio as a dedicated AMP.

I realize with audio there are a number of factors that must be addressed for quality sound such as, power, noise, and distortion. So the question again comes down to, if you have an A/V receiver that can address those areas of audio which are important for quality sound, is an AMP unnecessary? Further, is a dedicated AMP truly able to deliver a higher quality of sound than the receiver?

To bring this topic back to the intended subject of this thread, I ask this question in hopes of providing the best sound source to my speakers.

Originally Posted by scottiemon

No disrespect intended...but......
I like the fact there has been one place to go for Aperion discussion here on this forum. It is not like there is an Official Aperion 12D thread, or an Official Aperion bookshelf speaker thread, and so on.
Not trying to be mean, or start a controversy. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by jonLavs

Thanks for the info. So it sounds like a dedicated amp will give you more sound quality (clarity) and more output. The output part is not really of a concern to me as I hardly even push the 6Ts that I have. I think they have a ton of breathing room if I really wanted to crank them. But if the sound quality is better, then that would interest me more. I thought I had finished my audio/video purchases, but maybe in the future, I may look into this.

Originally Posted by jonLavs

The thing is, the sound quality is still dependent on how good your receiver is. You're feeding the sound into the amp through the receiver. So if the receiver is not good at it, then no matter how much you spend on the amp, it's still not gonna sound good. That's why I questioned the whole amp thing to begin with. Now, if we were to feed the digital signal directly into the amp first, I could see it being beneficial. Aside from the amp providing more power, the SQ is totally depending on the quality of the AVR.

Originally Posted by stash64

I agree that a good receiver is important, but you are mistaken about the digital signal. Sound is analog. I use a high quality DAC to convert the digital input back to analog for music, and in this case the receiver has very little to do but pass the signal through... unless you are using the AVR's surround processing.

I should add that you should look for an AVR that does have the ability to pass thru analog signals untouched. My Pioneer has this capability but many less expensive AVR's do not.

Originally Posted by jonLavs

A signal from a blu-ray is digital through HDMI and typically in Tru-HD or DTS-MA. Now the AVR needs to use logic to decode this digital signal and then feed it through a DAC to give you your analog signal. The quality of your AVR's DAC will limit any signal quality before it is fed out through your pre-outs. So, your amp is dependent on the quality of your AVR. Unless you have a dedicated module that ONLY decodes True-HD etc into analog, then feeds it into your AVR, then feeds it to your amp. But that kinda sounds silly. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's what some people do.

Originally Posted by RON82ND

I am on the fence of what to buy. I have $1500 to spend and want to know what you sll would get. I will have the onkyo 708 and it will be mainly ht vs stereo. My room is 24x13 with 9 ft ceilings. I want to keep it simple as far as wires which is waht made me look at aperion. What would you all purchase for this price point?

Originally Posted by jonLavs

So, when you say improvement, what improvement are you talking about? I just don't understand what improvement adding an amp would do considering I have an AVR that does 120Wpc? Additionally, you are now connecting the amp through an analog output of the AVR which may result in some signal degradation.

Please explain as I know a lot of people swear by an external amp, but why?

Originally Posted by UPWF Vizion

I think a good discussion since I have posted has answered most of this. The improvement I personally gained from was loud listening during dynamic movies. (Get Inception and crank IT!). As far as you needing extra amplification I would doubt it (I dont know your room size, listening distance, etc..) the 875 you have is a beast.
As far as the DAC argument both my AVR and yours use a Burr Brown model fully capable to handle the audio business. IMHO I think many things would have more of a profound impact to your SQ than any possible degradation that your speaking of when using an external amp. For instance, speaker placement, acoustical treatment, source players....
I hope that answers your question -
Anywho, who has cranked Inception on their Aperion system?! Blew my mind and my eardrums

Originally Posted by Roger That

My Verus Grands arrived this week. MUAHAHAHA! Love them so far.



More pics here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1213969

My feelings on them reflect the other sentiments in this thread. Definite improvement, and honestly, I would have upgraded for the smaller footprint alone. I don't think it's as easy to tell how much room the 6T's take up until you replace them with something with a far shallower cabinet. I feel like I've gained 10' of extra space in my room, while making no compromises in sound. Very happy with my decision to upgrade.

Originally Posted by BESLC

Congratulations on the Verus! I agree with you on how impressive the new Verus Grand is in terms of the quality of sound produced, appearance and the big plus, the smaller footprint.

I have only had mine a week now, they are sounding better each day as they open up and adapt environmentally. I am guessing they will come into their own in 100 to 200 hours of break-in. Aperion has a real winner with the Verus.

What are you using for surrounds? I m using 5T's which seem to be an excellent match. How do you have your Verus set, Large or Small? I am running mine Large.

I noticed you have yours on hardwood flooring, I do w=as well. I didn't use the spikes, instead I applied felt furniture strips on the feet. The felt seems to do a great job in isolating any vibration between the speaker and the floor, and it makes moving the speakers easy with no damage to the floor.