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*** The Official APERION Thread *** - Page 177

post #5281 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconde View Post

Where are the 6Ts?

I just went to the Aperion website and there is no entry for 6 series speakers anymore? No 6T and no 6C? What gives? Have they been discontinued?

I think it was mentioned awhile back that the 6 series was being done away with.... but I could be wrong.

I actually have a 6C (cherry) I need to sell if you're in the market...
post #5282 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconde View Post
Where are the 6Ts?

I just went to the Aperion website and there is no entry for 6 series speakers anymore? No 6T and no 6C? What gives? Have they been discontinued?
Yes.
post #5283 of 6862
That's correct the Intimus 6 series has been discontinued in favor of the Verus Grand.

And while we are talking about discontinued product, there are going to be some finish changes coming up for the Intimus 4 and 5 series.

I can't get into specifics for the new finishes quite yet, but I will say if you are thinking of rounding out a system and want the current cherry or high gloss black finish for Intimus speakers, you will want to pull the trigger in the next month or so.
post #5284 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

I can't get into specifics for the new finishes quite yet, but I will say if you are thinking of rounding out a system and want the current cherry or high gloss black finish for Intimus speakers, you will want to pull the trigger in the next month or so.

So I assume both finishes are being done away with?

In favor of satin black like the new subs perhaps?
post #5285 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

So I assume both finishes are being done away with?

In favor of satin black like the new subs perhaps?

That's correct you will not be able to get the current cherry and high gloss finishes for much longer.

As for the replacements, I'll let you all know as soon as I'm given the go ahead by the Aperion authorities.
post #5286 of 6862
For what it is worth, I think Aperion may be making a big mistake in doing away with the current speaker finishes.

The speakers I have purchased from Aperion have all had the Piano gloss black finish. The finish as well as the sound quality has been the standard which has set Aperion apart from their peers. The owners of the cherry finish have echoed their feelings about the finish.

The finish process may be costly compared to other options speaker manufactures use, but that is one of the factors that make Aperion special in a crowded field. Before the speaker emits the first sound the finish sets the stage.

Aperion has always raised the bar when it makes a change, I certainly hope the proposed move to modifying the finish is not a lowering of the bar to become like everyone else.
post #5287 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

That's correct you will not be able to get the current cherry and high gloss finishes for much longer.

As for the replacements, I'll let you all know as soon as I'm given the go ahead by the Aperion authorities.

Will the Verus line retain the current finish choices, or will their finishes be phased out after the Intimus line's?
post #5288 of 6862
I agree that one of the things that set Aperion apart is the cabinet aesthetics/quality.... in addition to the customer service/warranty.

I'm curious what the new finish(es) will be...
post #5289 of 6862
I also agree. I think the Intimus line sounds great, but I dont think they sound good enough to sell on that merritt alone. What makes them work is the combination of sound quality + finish quality at that price point.

If the finish is reduced to a more "standard" level it would certainly drop them out of consideration for me. What would they offer that I couldnt get for a comparable price locally? Where I would not have to front he entire cost to audition them and then wait for delivery.

I took the jump and purchased my 5b's mostly because of the looks. I read enough positive reviews to believe that the sound would be decently high quality (and it was, I am quite happy), and I was unable to find anything comparably priced with what I would consider "furniture grade" finish. Without that finish what can it offer to stand out from its competition? Whats the selling point?
post #5290 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by calincole View Post

I also agree. I think the Intimus line sounds great, but I dont think they sound good enough to sell on that merritt alone. What makes them work is the combination of sound quality + finish quality at that price point.

If the finish is reduced to a more "standard" level it would certainly drop them out of consideration for me. What would they offer that I couldnt get for a comparable price locally? Where I would not have to front he entire cost to audition them and then wait for delivery.

I took the jump and purchased my 5b's mostly because of the looks. I read enough positive reviews to believe that the sound would be decently high quality (and it was, I am quite happy), and I was unable to find anything comparably priced with what I would consider "furniture grade" finish. Without that finish what can it offer to stand out from its competition? Whats the selling point?

From what I've heard of Aperion's products - S8-APR, 6C - the sound quality is good...

But lets be real... the Intimus speakers don't measure all that well, objectively....

Take a look at the measurements in reviews of the 5T-DB and 633-T systems from Ultimate AV Mag:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...m-measurements
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...m-measurements
...or the 633T and 4B/C systems from Sound and Vision Mag:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tes...eater-speakers
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/con...eaker-system-0

The measurements aren't bad, but aren't stellar either. Aperion has built a reputation on offering great build quality and customer service along with furniture grade finishes and quality sound for a good price.

But I would argue, with the Intimus offerings, they haven't built the reputation on audiophile sound quality, like say, Ascend Acoustics. The CBM-170SE and CMT-340SE measure ridiculously well, but they aren't much to look at at all.

Granted, frequency response isn't everything... and many people like Aperion's sound... But again, objectively, the measurements aren't impressive. Add to that the relatively low sensitivity of some of the Intimus offerings (4B,4C,5B come to mind)... and on paper they don't stand out.

But many people want high end finishes with good sound, and reasonable price, and Aperion seems to deliver on that.

Take away the high end finishes... and you put them in more direct competition with other speakers that, on paper (and in measurements), look more appealing. The PSB Image line comes to mind as just one example.

Now of course, this last point is all moot if the replacement finishes are some other furniture grade wood veneer that people like...

But I have to doubt that's the case... and assume doing away with gloss black and cherry is a means to cut costs...


I also want to add... the above is in reference to the Intimus line only. The limited measurements I've seen of the Verus line (review of the Grand system by Audioholics) look much more impressive...
post #5291 of 6862
Agree completely. This is what I was trying to say, but with more actual data.

They arent quality enough products to sell on the specs/performance. They need to the boost of the really attractive finish to become a winner.

Now, maybe the new finish will be nice.... but if the subwoofers are an indication they will be much more pedestrian.
post #5292 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by calincole View Post

Now, maybe the new finish will be nice.... but if the subwoofers are an indication they will be much more pedestrian.

I would have to assume this as well...that satin black is the likely replacement... but you know what they say about assumptions...
post #5293 of 6862
Stellar measurements do not guarantee listener enjoyment. Not even close.

I will refrain from comments regarding the finish until I see what the new ones look like.

I have to believe Aperion knows the finish of their speakers have helped their sales so I have faith that they will still have that advantage.
post #5294 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Stellar measurements do not guarantee listener enjoyment. Not even close.

Talking from a listener perspective only (not from a design perspective), measurements only tell a part of the story, and you're right, guarantee nothing... but that's because listener preference is so subjective.

Basic frequency response measurements do represent a good starting point, and provide info about the tonal balance and characteristics of a speaker. I never said Aperion speakers aren't good because they don't measure flat... just that, objectively, the measurements are not impressive.

Some people like certain "coloration" to the sound, like the shelved up treble of the Aperion Intimus speakers.... Others prefer a more neutral response. Hell, some don't know what type of response they prefer because they have no basis for comparison, and/or no measurements to reference... They just know they like their speakers and to that individual, the speakers sound balanced.

I've seen some of Ascend's speakers, which measure ruler flat, described as bright. I've seen speakers with a large upper bass bump described as neutral. It's all relative to what other speakers the listener has heard/is comparing to... and is also very dependent on room acoustics/interactions.

Granted, quasi-anechoic measurements tell nothing about room acoustics/interactions, and in-room response can differ drastically... so it should come as no surprise that perceived sound can vary so much.... not to mention how different listener preference can be. But I'd argue that still doesn't mean quasi-anechoic measurements are useless...

Again, I won't deny there is alot more to the overall sound than just what is seen in the frequency response measurements.... but just because you, or someone else, finds "listener enjoyment" in Aperion's products doesn't mean someone should discount the usefulness of these types of measurements. I think measurements provide a much better start point than owner opinions and subjective reviews.

On the other hand, I'm also not saying someone should completely eliminate a speaker just because the measurements aren't as impressive. In the end, I think we both agree that it's all about personal preference and how the speakers sound in your room... so the only way to know is to demo. Aperion makes that very easy with their free shipping both way policy.
post #5295 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I will refrain from comments regarding the finish until I see what the new ones look like.

I have to believe Aperion knows the finish of their speakers have helped their sales so I have faith that they will still have that advantage.

...and I'll speculate at the risk of being completely wrong in my assumptions...

I don't doubt you're right, that Aperion is aware of the role the aesthetics of their speakers has played in sales...

But they're a business that needs to make money... and they've already dropped cherry/gloss black from the subs in favor of satin black to offset rising costs, and instead of raising prices. So it's not way out of left field to think that might end up being the case for the Intimus speakers as well.

Again, just speculation... and I could be wrong... but it's fun to guess...
post #5296 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post


...and I'll speculate at the risk of being completely wrong in my assumptions...

I don't doubt you're right, that Aperion is aware of the role the aesthetics of their speakers has played in sales...

But they're a business that needs to make money... and they've already dropped cherry/gloss black from the subs in favor of satin black to offset rising costs, and instead of raising prices. So it's not way out of left field to think that might end up being the case for the Intimus speakers as well.

Again, just speculation... and I could be wrong... but it's fun to guess...

100% agree.
post #5297 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post


Talking from a listener perspective only (not from a design perspective), measurements only tell a part of the story, and you're right, guarantee nothing... but that's because listener preference is so subjective.

Basic frequency response measurements do represent a good starting point, and provide info about the tonal balance and characteristics of a speaker.

I never said Aperion speakers aren't good because they don't measure flat... just that, objectively, the measurements are not impressive.

Some people like certain "coloration" to the sound, like the shelved up treble of the Aperion Intimus speakers.... Others prefer a more neutral response.

Hell, some don't know what type of response they prefer because they have no basis for comparison, and/or no measurements to reference... They just know they like their speakers and to that individual, the speakers sound balanced.

I've seen some of Ascend's speakers, which measure ruler flat, described as bright. I've seen speakers with a large upper bass bump described as neutral. It's all relative to what other speakers the person has heard/is comparing to... and is also very dependent on room acoustics/interactions.

Granted, quasi-anechoic measurements tell nothing about room acoustics/interactions, and in-room response can differ drastically... so it should come as not surprise that perceived sound and listener preference vary so much. But that doesn't mean quasi-anechoic measurements are useless...

Again, I won't deny there is alot more to the overall sound than just what is seen in the frequency response measurements.... but just because you, or someone else, finds "listener enjoyment" in Aperion's products doesn't mean someone should discount the usefulness of these types of measurements.

On the other hand, I'm also not saying someone should completely eliminate a speaker just because the measurements aren't as impressive. In the end, I think we both agree that it's all about personal preference and how the speakers sound in your room... so the only way to know is to demo. Aperion makes that very easy with their free shipping both way policy.

100% agree.
post #5298 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by iAusio80 View Post

Anyone have more info on the Summit Wireless systems? I believe they are up for pre-order, but anyone 'professionally' tested this yet?

Thanks!!

There should be a New York Times review of the Summit System dropping on Thursday. I'll post a link here once I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhereToStart View Post

Will the Verus line retain the current finish choices, or will their finishes be phased out after the Intimus line's?

Nope no changes to the Verus line planned currently.

As for the Intimus finish changes thanks for the feedback, I'd just say that once we reveal fully what we are doing I think we can have a more complete conversation about it.
post #5299 of 6862
Those frequency response graphs for the 5T from the ultimateavmag URLs look much different than the graphs posted on Aperion's website. Is there a sort of "standard" used when measuring a FR in an anechoic room? If the standards are the same, then that shows me how accurate or worthwhile a frequency response really is...
post #5300 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w View Post

Those frequency response graphs for the 5T from the ultimateavmag URLs look much different than the graphs posted on Aperion's website. Is there a sort of "standard" used when measuring a FR in an anechoic room? If the standards are the same, then that shows me how accurate or worthwhile a frequency response really is...

Ultimate AV Mag's measurements are not done in an anechoic chamber. The only review mag I know of that measures in one is Soundstage, which uses the NRC's anechoic chamber. Ultimate AV Mag does pseudo-anechoic (or quasi-anechoic) measurements at 1m, with a nearfield response of the woofer/port spliced onto the frequency response graph.

There various possible reasons why the responses from Ultimate AV Mag and Aperion don't match up...

One thing to note is that the Aperion measurements are done at the edge of the baffle (so slightly off axis) at 1m... Whereas the AV Mag measurements are an average of response over a 30 degree horizontal window - not just one measurement point - and I imagine the measurements are taken at 0 degree (on axis) as well as +/- 15 degree (ie. 15 degrees off axis in each horizontal direction), then averaged.

Another possible reason for the discrepancy could be where the measurements were taken - as in the room/warehouse where the measurements were done.

There's a cool article at Audioholics today in which Ken Humphrey's (Aperion's designer) talks about design methods/goals (http://www.audioholics.com/education...ign-philosophy)... and he comments on doing "ground plane" measurements in an open warehouse so the mic/speakers are not close to any walls... Though he also makes mention of a listening room where he can switch from listening to objective measuring... So someone from Aperion would have to chime in where they do their measurements...

In any case, the point is... the smaller the space where the measurements are done, the closer the mic/speaker would be to a reflective wall/ceiling... which will influence the measurements more. Also, the level of treatments (acoustic panels, ect) within the room would affect measurements as well.

One other possible reason for discrepancy - the level of smoothing applied to the graph. Check out the measurements of the CBM-170SE at Ascend Acoustics' website, and note the description at the top of the page:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...bm170meas.html
"*All of the measurements you see below are unsmoothed and use a 5dB/division scale where appropriate. It is common for loudspeaker manufacturers to publish measurements that have been smoothed to 1/3 octave (meaning 3 graph points per each octave) and use a 10dB/division scale. This has a tendency to make the graphs look smoother than they are."

Neither Aperion or Ultimate AV Mag specify the amount of smoothing applied to their measurements.

Of course, the equipment/software used for measurement could differ as well... along with how they gate for reflections, ect... stuff that is beyond my level of knowledge on the subject.

This isn't a knock on Aperion - but ultimately I tend to put more stock in 3rd party measurements (when done by a credible source) than I do in the manufacturer measurements. Ascend Acoustics might be one of the few exceptions...

That said, I credit Aperion for making measurements available... since many manufacturers don't...
post #5301 of 6862
Where on the Aperion website can you find the freq resp charts?
post #5302 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post

Where on the Aperion website can you find the freq resp charts?

At each speaker's individual product page, click on the "Specs and Features" tab and then scroll all the way to the bottom.

The New York Times review of the Summit System is now live, check it out!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/te...view.html?_r=1
post #5303 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzbc View Post

Not to split hairs, but wouldn't it be to "toe in"? Not to "tow in"? Tow in is what I do when my car breaks down and I need to take it in to the garage. I tow it in.

Toed in right. I have had 5b's, 4t's, and now 5t's up front and I actually prefer them with zero toe in.
post #5304 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

At each speaker's individual product page, click on the "Specs and Features" tab and then scroll all the way to the bottom.

Are you planning on posting some results for the forte line?
post #5305 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Toed in right. I have had 5b's, 4t's, and now 5t's up front and I actually prefer them with zero toe in.

In looking at the 30 degree horizontal listening window measurements (average of on-axis and +/-15 degree off axis) of the 5T from Ultimate AV Mag... the treble is elevated.

By listening with zero toe in... this puts you off axis (horizontally) relative to both the front L/R speakers.... Off axis, the treble will roll off gently... which would bring it a bit more in line with the rest of the frequency range...

So by listening with zero toe in... I wouldn't be surprised if the perceived sound is more balanced.
post #5306 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

In looking at the 30 degree horizontal listening window measurements (average of on-axis and +/-15 degree off axis) of the 5T from Ultimate AV Mag... the treble is elevated.

By listening with zero toe in... this puts you off axis (horizontally) relative to both the front L/R speakers.... Off axis, the treble will roll off gently... which would bring it a bit more in line with the rest of the frequency range...

So by listening with zero toe in... I wouldn't be surprised if the perceived sound is more balanced.

It will be nice to see some measurements on the Forte towers.

Did you pick a pair up from Zetec? ...BTW, the forte towers integrate well with a sub and will surprise you with their ability to produce tight and accurate bass by themselves (if properly amplified). I cross mine over at 80 hz and regularly listen at 85-95 db spl C and I'm still saying wow. A lot of accurate sound, with great attack and decay for their size and they stay composed at ref levels ...at that point I'm giving in before the speakers do. A lot of bang for your buck, and even more for a slightly used set!

Who knows Hicks may even honor a trade up for the Grands!
post #5307 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post


In looking at the 30 degree horizontal listening window measurements (average of on-axis and +/-15 degree off axis) of the 5T from Ultimate AV Mag... the treble is elevated.

By listening with zero toe in... this puts you off axis (horizontally) relative to both the front L/R speakers.... Off axis, the treble will roll off gently... which would bring it a bit more in line with the rest of the frequency range...

So by listening with zero toe in... I wouldn't be surprised if the perceived sound is more balanced.

I was thinking it had more to do with how far away I sit from them. I am 9-10 feet away. Having zero toe in seems to open the soundstage up more. I'll have to experiment with it some more. Maybe try more toe in. How far do you guys go? To where the speaker is basically facing you?
post #5308 of 6862
I have to agree with the comments a little above about the finish, cost and sound of Aperion.

I picked up 6T/6C/5DB/12DII last November during their Thanksgiving sale. It was just before rumblings of the 6T demise, and 5DB revamp came out, and the pricing was very aggressive.

I was a bit disappointed that my 'brand new' speakers were suddenly 'old' and gone like a dinosaur for a new, better version.

But I'm way over that. I could not have gotten a system into my house for anywhere near the 'value quotient' that I did, and that was in part due to the fact they were end of life models. Aperion has always been good value, but I did extra good.

And most importantly, I REALLY enjoy their sound.

I have the piano finish, and a lot of people who saw my system for the first time blurted out 'wow', just for their looks.

Aperion has dropped the remote from their subs line, and are changing some finishes. Sometimes I think this can't be good, but truly it is too early to call it. Maybe it will broaden their offerings and expand their market/sales.

The Verus line is certainly a winner, so it can't be all bad. I'm watching all this with a great curiosity.

and oh yeah..... I sit about 10-11' away from my LCR, and use zero toe in. The sound field is very wide and transparpent. I tried a slight toe in, but went back to zero.
post #5309 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post

Are you planning on posting some results for the forte line?

Yes thanks for pointing out that they weren't up yet.

We should have those posted in the next few days.

In case anyone missed alpha's link you guys should check out the interview with our speaker engineer over at Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/education...ign-philosophy
post #5310 of 6862
Anyone own the Verus speakers? I am wondering about the treble and midrange. Would you consider them forward, bright or laid back? I am very sensitive to brightness (often get a headache listening to bright speakers). I'm curious as to how they sound.

Anyone done an AB comparision to other brands?

Thanks.
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