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*** The Official APERION Thread *** - Page 186

post #5551 of 6862
The product description now says it is an imitation finish.

That's a definite change.
post #5552 of 6862
Yeah, the finish change was expected, but the price change we were NOT expecting... that's a good thing for Aperion to do, transferring the savings to the customer. The base on the 4T tower is changed also, still looks cool.

I just ordered an Intimus 5C in cherry a month ago and now I can't tell if it's the imitation cherry finish or the real deal, wondering if they had the imitation cherry finish in stock before it showed up on the website. The cherry on my 5C is lighter than all my other Aperion speakers... but that just might be the natural cosmetics of the wood.
post #5553 of 6862
Well I'm happy to see a price drop of course but disappointed to see the finish change because I already have a pair of 4Bs and I was contemplating rounding out the set but it will stink to not be able to match the finishes.
I suppose for someone starting from scratch it will not be such a big deal.It is hard to say for sure judging from just the pictures but it looks like the new finish can't hold a candle to the old.
The 5 series are still listed with the old finish but I wonder if they will stay that way or follow the path of the 4 series in the future?
post #5554 of 6862
I would imagine the 5 series is probably not going to stick around.
post #5555 of 6862
Ever seen any different colour finishes on the V.Grand?
post #5556 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by ser_renely View Post

Ever seen any different colour finishes on the V.Grand?

When they did the finish change I asked about the Verus line and was told there was no planned changes to their finish choices.
post #5557 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhereToStart View Post

When they did the finish change I asked about the Verus line and was told there was no planned changes to their finish choices.

I see no finish change in the Verus line and I would not expect to see any.
The only change I see is in the 4 series and while I have not looked I remember that one was coming for the subs.
post #5558 of 6862
While I'm glad to see the prices go down in the Intimus 4 series speakers, I honestly feel Aperion had to lower the pricing given the cutbacks in the products themselves.

With that savings, the customer loses the real wood veneer or gloss black, loses 5 years off the warranty, and gets thinner 15mm MDF cabinets... So gone are the nice finishes, 10 year warranty, and 3/4" HDF cabinets... I'm especially disappointed to see them switch to thinner, less dense cabinets - which actually makes me wonder, are the current website specs correct? The weights are the same as before... but no way the cabinets didn't get lighter going from 3/4" HDF to 15mm MDF.

Shame that manufacturing costs are going up the way they are, since on the consumer end, we either pay more for equivalent product, or get a lesser quality product.
post #5559 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I would imagine the 5 series is probably not going to stick around.

Yeah, I would expect the Verus Forte will replace the 5 series altogether since they're in the same price range.
post #5560 of 6862
I Actually worded my last question wrong, but meant do they ever expect to have a couple of other colour selections for the grand? a dark mahogany or light coloured maple?
post #5561 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

While I'm glad to see the prices go down in the Intimus 4 series speakers, I honestly feel Aperion had to lower the pricing given the cutbacks in the products themselves.

With that savings, the customer loses the real wood veneer or gloss black, loses 5 years off the warranty, and gets thinner 15mm MDF cabinets... So gone are the nice finishes, 10 year warranty, and 3/4" HDF cabinets... I'm especially disappointed to see them switch to thinner, less dense cabinets - which actually makes me wonder, are the current website specs correct? The weights are the same as before... but no way the cabinets didn't get lighter going from 3/4" HDF to 15mm MDF.

Shame that manufacturing costs are going up the way they are, since on the consumer end, we either pay more for equivalent product, or get a lesser quality product.

I did not catch the change in cabinet material or the lesser 5 yr warranty.I have to say that I'm rather dissapointed to see them lower the quality and shorten the warranty as those were realy big draws for me.
I guess that they felt that it was a good move business wise to have lower prices since more people buy in the lower price categories than the higher price categories and the only way to accomplish that was to trim cost by cutting back.
Personally I hate to see it though because that quality and long warranty made Aperion stand out as a higher quality product than the average speakers.
post #5562 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by ser_renely View Post

I Actually worded my last question wrong, but meant do they ever expect to have a couple of other colour selections for the grand? a dark mahogany or light coloured maple?

I doubt it because they seem to be cutting back and simplifying on other products such as the subs and the Intimus 4 series.To add more finish options would add cost and complicate the manufacturing,inventory,ordering,etc.
They are a business though so if there were enough demand anything is possible.
post #5563 of 6862
Didn't know they changed to MDF. Wonder if going from HDF to MDF changed the sound? It's a shame that commodity prices have gone up the way they have, because it affects small businesses like Aperion as we are noticing now. We can blame Bernanke for all that, but that's an entirely different discussion altogether.
The imitation cherry wood finish looks nice IMO.
post #5564 of 6862
Looking at the pics at least, I don't mind the look of the faux cherry finish either... For a faux wood vinyl, it looks pretty nice. What bothers me is that with the lower price came thinner, less dense cabinets and 1/2 the warranty length.

How audible will the difference in sound would be by switching from 3/4" HDF to 15mm MDF? I don't know... But I do know that cabinet resonances like to muck up the midrange, and moving to thinner/less dense cabinets means resonances will increase.

I realize though that MDF is the industry standard, not HDF, and not everyone even uses 3/4" MDF in that price range... But the extra care in cabinet build quality - using denser HDF; 3/4" thick in the 4 series, and 1" thick in the 5/6 series - is one area where Aperion's products stood out. Take that away, chop the warranty in half, and dumb the finish down to vinyl (even if I don't think it looks bad)... and the products start to stand out less...


On the other hand, the Verus Grand and Forte speakers have been very well received, and live up to Aperion's reputation for build quality (although I think they use MDF and not HDF for these). The 6 series is gone, and the 5 series looks to be going away (although I could be wrong about that - Aperion hasn't stated this that I've seen)... so that leave just the 4 series... Since manufacturing costs are up, they're faced with either raising prices or making cutting costs. It's not surprising they chose to "cut some corners" on the 4 series, given the likely target buyer for that line. By doing this, they're able to bring down prices a bit too, which helps people feel better since they aren't getting the pretty gloss or wood finish anymore.

For the not so average buyer like those of us here at AVS that care about the fine details and want the higher build/finish/sonics - we're going to have to pay for it in the Verus lines.
post #5565 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcg44s View Post

I doubt it because they seem to be cutting back and simplifying on other products such as the subs and the Intimus 4 series.To add more finish options would add cost and complicate the manufacturing,inventory,ordering,etc.
They are a business though so if there were enough demand anything is possible.

Yeah, I figured. I would be willing to pay a bit more for the colour I want, but it also depends on how much more.

The dark Cherry just doesn't seem dark enough for me.
post #5566 of 6862
Got my Verus Forte 5.1 set all hooked up

Had a little trouble early on. I forgot my receiver was set to full band and notice slight crackling from the left tower on very deep bass at high volume. My guess is it was a little too much - I tweaked the settings to crossover to the sub at 60hz which solved the crackling. Otherwise they are sounding really nice.

I want to wait through the break-in period before I really test out different audio sources
post #5567 of 6862
Anyone notice the price of the Verus Forte tower went up $50 ($495 to $545)?

I really hope all prices don't start going up... since I still have my eye on the Grand Bookshelf...
post #5568 of 6862
Hey guys,

Sorry I wasn't around to address questions, I am working a new schedule where I'm doing 8am-7pm Pacific Mon-Thurs with Fridays off to try and help folks out that can't call us during our normal hours.

In any event, yes new Intimus is here although the quantity we got of the black finish was unfortunately quite limited and the 4Ts and 4Bs sold out over the weekend, but we do have a good amount in the cherry.

They are indeed a vinyl wrap, but I think the cherry in particular looks pretty convincing myself.

As alphaiii noted it was either raise prices or go this route due to increasing production costs. On top of that, I think that this will help differentiate the Verus and Intimus lines a bit better than before and help folks make their decision as to which are the right speakers for them.

For folks like dcg44s that were hoping to round a system I have good news, we will be getting one last shipment of all the four and five series speakers in the original high gloss black, except for the 5DBs, around 11/15. Those should be up on the site for pre-order in the next couple of weeks.

The five series speakers will be released in the vinyl finishes in November, there are no plans to phase the five series out.

As for the thinner cabinets, I would mention that the four series has always been a 3/4" MDF, it was the 5 and 6 series that were HDF.

In any event we did revoice these speakers to take that into account and I think our speaker designer Ken did a great job, they sound nearly identical to their old Intimus counterparts to my ears and the measurements look great too. One advantage that they do have is that they are slightly more sensitive than the previous Intimus speakers.

Finally yes we did have to increase the cost of the VFTs recently, but I still think they offer a great value at $1090/pair and there are definitely no plans to raise any of the other Verus prices in the immediate future.

Please let me know if you have any other questions and thanks for being a great group of people, I really appreciate those of you that reach out to help your fellow Aperions, that is what it is all about!
post #5569 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

The five series speakers will be released in the vinyl finishes in November, there are no plans to phase the five series out.

As for the thinner cabinets, I would mention that the four series has always been a 3/4" MDF, it was the 5 and 6 series that were HDF.

In any event we did revoice these speakers to take that into account and I think our speaker designer Ken did a great job, they sound nearly identical to their old Intimus counterparts to my ears and the measurements look great too. One advantage that they do have is that they are slightly more sensitive than the previous Intimus speakers.

Finally yes we did have to increase the cost of the VFTs recently, but I still think they offer a great value at $1090/pair and there are definitely no plans to raise any of the other Verus prices in the immediate future. !

So in going from 3/4" to 15mm MDF, you don't feel it compromised performance of the 4T in any way? Can you get into how they were voiced differently at all?

From measurements I've seen of the Intimus line, they generally have a shelved up treble... and my guess is that with thinner cabinets = more resonance, you'd get some more low midrange/upper bass coloration... so, again guessing, but I'd think the tweeter would be padded down a bit less to compensate, which would explain the slight increase in sensitivity... Or am I way off here? I'm by no means a speaker designer, but I do tend to read the DIY stuff, so maybe (or maybe not) I've learned a little...

Will there be a change in the 5 series as well, from 1" HDF to a thinner MDF?


Glad to hear there are no plans for price raises on the other Verus speakers... as mentioned, I want to go after those Grand Bookshelves at some point, and price raise certainly wouldn't be friendly to my budget.
post #5570 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

Hey guys,

Sorry I wasn't around to address questions, I am working a new schedule where I'm doing 8am-7pm Pacific Mon-Thurs with Fridays off to try and help folks out that can't call us during our normal hours.

In any event, yes new Intimus is here although the quantity we got of the black finish was unfortunately quite limited and the 4Ts and 4Bs sold out over the weekend, but we do have a good amount in the cherry.

They are indeed a vinyl wrap, but I think the cherry in particular looks pretty convincing myself.

As alphaiii noted it was either raise prices or go this route due to increasing production costs. On top of that, I think that this will help differentiate the Verus and Intimus lines a bit better than before and help folks make their decision as to which are the right speakers for them.

For folks like dcg44s that were hoping to round a system I have good news, we will be getting one last shipment of all the four and five series speakers in the original high gloss black, except for the 5DBs, around 11/15. Those should be up on the site for pre-order in the next couple of weeks.

The five series speakers will be released in the vinyl finishes in November, there are no plans to phase the five series out.

As for the thinner cabinets, I would mention that the four series has always been a 3/4" MDF, it was the 5 and 6 series that were HDF.

In any event we did revoice these speakers to take that into account and I think our speaker designer Ken did a great job, they sound nearly identical to their old Intimus counterparts to my ears and the measurements look great too. One advantage that they do have is that they are slightly more sensitive than the previous Intimus speakers.

Finally yes we did have to increase the cost of the VFTs recently, but I still think they offer a great value at $1090/pair and there are definitely no plans to raise any of the other Verus prices in the immediate future.

Please let me know if you have any other questions and thanks for being a great group of people, I really appreciate those of you that reach out to help your fellow Aperions, that is what it is all about!

That's all well and good, but IMO, if you change the design of a product, it should be given a new product name or number so that there is no confusion.
post #5571 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

That's all well and good, but IMO, if you change the design of a product, it should be given a new product name or number so that there is no confusion.

But the Intimus line has an established reputation, and the 4 series, especially at the lower pricing, appeals to many potential buyers because of the small footprint. So why not use that well established/well reviewed name to market the revised Intimus product? And that's really what it is, a revised version of an existing product, not something new altogether.

While I don't necessarily like that they're playing on the reputation/reviews of the original, better built version, and not this (IMO) lesser quality version (regardless of whether sound is almost the same, build quality isn't)...

...The average buyer likely won't notice, or if they do, won't care, that they lowered cabinet build quality and revoiced to speakers to compensate... since the price has dropped, and according to Aperion (Jason), they've maintained almost the same sound. They might wish the Intimus speakers still had the nice veneer or gloss finish, but the price drop is likely to speak louder to those potential buyers than anything else.

It's easy to criticize Aperion with this move, but they're a business and need to make profits... so it's just the way they chose to handle the increased costs. Again, as the consumer, you either pay more for equivalent product these days, or pay the same (or in this case a little less) for a lesser product. While it may steer buyers like you or I away... I don't think it's going to hurt their sales much, since they were able to lower the prices... and for the average buyer, that's a much bigger bonus than thicker/heavier cabinets...
post #5572 of 6862
20011 Ford Focus. 2012 Ford Focus. Totally differed cars. Same name.
post #5573 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

So in going from 3/4" to 15mm MDF, you don't feel it compromised performance of the 4T in any way? Can you get into how they were voiced differently at all?

From measurements I've seen of the Intimus line, they generally have a shelved up treble... and my guess is that with thinner cabinets = more resonance, you'd get some more low midrange/upper bass coloration... so, again guessing, but I'd think the tweeter would be padded down a bit less to compensate, which would explain the slight increase in sensitivity... Or am I way off here? I'm by no means a speaker designer, but I do tend to read the DIY stuff, so maybe (or maybe not) I've learned a little...

Will there be a change in the 5 series as well, from 1" HDF to a thinner MDF?


Glad to hear there are no plans for price raises on the other Verus speakers... as mentioned, I want to go after those Grand Bookshelves at some point, and price raise certainly wouldn't be friendly to my budget.

Here's what Ken had to say on the topic:

Quote:


Coloration from the cabinet panels is very low because they are so stiff due to their small depth dimension -- changing thickness from 18mm to 15mm did not measurably change the freq response. The slight increase in air volume actually made for a greater change, which we compensated for by changing the dimensions of the port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

That's all well and good, but IMO, if you change the design of a product, it should be given a new product name or number so that there is no confusion.

I can see it both ways, on the one hand there are some differences but on the other hand the the drivers are the same and the sound is at the least very similar.

But I don't think we are the first speaker company to launch a new version of a product and keep the same name. Perhaps a version II denotation would be clarifying, but then again it could just create more confusion for folks that are new to our brand.

I think that we are going to jazz up the messaging on the site with some graphics to call a little more attention to the fact that this are new versions, since the last thing we want is for someone to order them thinking they are getting the previous finishes.
post #5574 of 6862
The 4T is essentially still the same product. I'm fine with the name. It would have been nice to have it called a MKII or something that noted the changes, along with the more affordable price tag, while ensuring customers that the product is/should be acoustically the same.

I have more of a problem when a company changes other people's words..
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/enthusiast3.html

Quote:


"The Hsu Research surround system of HB-1 Mk.2, HC-1 Mk.2, and VTF-3 Mk4 is outstanding by any measure."

While I am sure the VTF-3 Mk4 (recently came out) is no doubt a great sub...that version was not the one tested. The changes Hsu made from MK3 to MK4 are much different than the old 4T and the new 4T.
post #5575 of 6862
Isn't this the way most companies do after they get their products out there and get a following. They all start cutting materials and manufacturing processes to save money.They do have to make a profit hopefully to do more development.
post #5576 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post

Here's what Ken had to say on the topic:


Quote:


Coloration from the cabinet panels is very low because they are so stiff due to their small depth dimension -- changing thickness from 18mm to 15mm did not measurably change the freq response. The slight increase in air volume actually made for a greater change, which we compensated for by changing the dimensions of the port.

Thanks Jason (and Ken).

So my assumptions were off - I didn't think about the change in interior volume and how that would affect port requirements. This is why I am not a speaker designer.
post #5577 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post


For folks like dcg44s that were hoping to round a system I have good news, we will be getting one last shipment of all the four and five series speakers in the original high gloss black, except for the 5DBs, around 11/15. Those should be up on the site for pre-order in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for the reply Jason,unfortunately in my case I am looking to match a Med Cherry finish on my 4Bs so the final shipment of Gloss Black still won't help in my case.I'm not sure what I will do but the world won't end.Now if I had bought Verus Grands and the finish changed............
post #5578 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackzarg View Post

The 4T is essentially still the same product. I'm fine with the name. It would have been nice to have it called a MKII or something that noted the changes, along with the more affordable price tag, while ensuring customers that the product is/should be acoustically the same.

I have more of a problem when a company changes other people's words..
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/enthusiast3.html



While I am sure the VTF-3 Mk4 (recently came out) is no doubt a great sub...that version was not the one tested. The changes Hsu made from MK3 to MK4 are much different than the old 4T and the new 4T.

Must have been some kind of oversight. It looks like it is fixed now.
post #5579 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

But the Intimus line has an established reputation, and the 4 series, especially at the lower pricing, appeals to many potential buyers because of the small footprint. So why not use that well established/well reviewed name to market the revised Intimus product? And that's really what it is, a revised version of an existing product, not something new altogether.

While I don't necessarily like that they're playing on the reputation/reviews of the original, better built version, and not this (IMO) lesser quality version (regardless of whether sound is almost the same, build quality isn't)...

...The average buyer likely won't notice, or if they do, won't care, that they lowered cabinet build quality and revoiced to speakers to compensate... since the price has dropped, and according to Aperion (Jason), they've maintained almost the same sound. They might wish the Intimus speakers still had the nice veneer or gloss finish, but the price drop is likely to speak louder to those potential buyers than anything else.

It's easy to criticize Aperion with this move, but they're a business and need to make profits... so it's just the way they chose to handle the increased costs. Again, as the consumer, you either pay more for equivalent product these days, or pay the same (or in this case a little less) for a lesser product. While it may steer buyers like you or I away... I don't think it's going to hurt their sales much, since they were able to lower the prices... and for the average buyer, that's a much bigger bonus than thicker/heavier cabinets...

Because it's misleading. They can call it the 4n (new) or the 4s (special) or the 4x (xtra cheap) or the 2012 4 or whatever. I don't have any problem with what they're doing in terms of building a cheaper speaker as long as it's properly named/labeled. Specs should not change on an existing model, especially if it's not for the better. If I go to a friend's house and audition a "4" and order it, I expect the same speaker. I shouldn't be getting a radically different design (and this is a radically different design.)

What you have to ask is why didn't they change the model designation? I guarantee you they would have changed the designation had they made the speaker better regardless of whether they changed the selling price. They didn't change the designation because while they might want people to notice the lower price, they don't want people to notice that the specs are inferior.

End of story. Don't make excuses for them just because we like the company and their products.
post #5580 of 6862
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Because it's misleading. They can call it the 4n (new) or the 4s (special) or the 4x (xtra cheap) or the 2012 4 or whatever. I don't have any problem with what they're doing in terms of building a cheaper speaker as long as it's properly named/labeled. Specs should not change on an existing model, especially if it's not for the better. If I go to a friend's house and audition a "4" and order it, I expect the same speaker. I shouldn't be getting a radically different design (and this is a radically different design.)

What you have to ask is why didn't they change the model designation? I guarantee you they would have changed the designation had they made the speaker better regardless of whether they changed the selling price. They didn't change the designation because while they might want people to notice the lower price, they don't want people to notice that the specs are inferior.

End of story. Don't make excuses for them just because we like the company and their products.

I'm not making excuses for Aperion... What isn't clear from my post is the sarcasm embedded in this statement:
"But the Intimus line has an established reputation, and the 4 series, especially at the lower pricing, appeals to many potential buyers because of the small footprint. So why not use that well established/well reviewed name to market the revised Intimus product? And that's really what it is, a revised version of an existing product, not something new altogether."

After re-reading what I typed, I can see why you wouldn't get my disapproval of this type of product marketing. I guess I was playing devil's advocate a bit, as well as trying to point out that many folks aren't going to be as critical as your or I (the latter part of my post). Still, regardless of whether the average buyer notices or cares... I noticed and don't necessarily like the way the current 4 series is basically marketed as the same product.

I would however argue that it isn't a radically different design. The speakers have essentially the same sound (according to Aperion), same drivers, same xover (I do now wonder if Aperion moved to cheaper parts in the xovers given the other cost cutting measures), exterior cabinet dimensions...

BUT, you're right that this revised series IS DIFFERENT than the 4 series that has been well reviewed and has an established reputation because the build quality of the product has changed. While I don't think the products need renamed entirely, I certainly agree with others that there should be some sort of designation to distinguish the current crop from the previous Intimus 4 products (such as a mkII or .2 designation others have mentioned) for the exact reason you mentioned - so buyer don't expect to be getting the exact same (minus aesthetics - I'd think that difference is obvious) product they've read about in reviews.
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