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XBR2 Fail 1080p Testing

post #1 of 15
12/20/06 at 6:07pm
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I can't recall where I read the article, but it was written not too long ago from a tech guy who ran some 1080p tests on a XBR2. Apparently, the 1080p test failed and he contacted Sony about the . They replied saying all XBR2s manufactured from Sept. 2006 onward no longer have this issue.

Does this ring anyone's bell? Is it true?
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post #2 of 15
1/26/07 at 5:12am
Don't know if you're still checking your thread, but yes. I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. There's a whole mystery to me behind this entire subject, but most users just want to move on and assume they have 1080p capability. Here are a couple of quotes from Sony Tech Support for your consideration or amusement as the case may be:

"We understand that you would like to view full high definition 1080p input signals on the Television KDL-40XBR2. Unfortunately, the TV supports 1080i,720p, 480i and 480p input signals. We are glad to inform you that the all the devices (which output 1080p signals) have the ability to 'downrez' (lower the resolution) to output an image to ANY TV. You will need to make required settings for the resolution you want to display in the devices which output 1080p signals."

"We understand your concern regarding the Sales Literature and the Instruction Manual that say that the television accepts the 1080P input signals. It is true that your television is having the capability of receiving the 1080p signals. However the output would not be 1080p as it is capable of displaying till 1080i signals. Please be informed that the display would be 'downrez' (lower the resolution) on your television."
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post #3 of 15
1/26/07 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarls View Post

Don't know if you're still checking your thread, but yes. I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. There's a whole mystery to me behind this entire subject, but most users just want to move on and assume they have 1080p capability. Here are a couple of quotes from Sony Tech Support for your consideration or amusement as the case may be:

"We understand that you would like to view full high definition 1080p input signals on the Television KDL-40XBR2. Unfortunately, the TV supports 1080i,720p, 480i and 480p input signals. We are glad to inform you that the all the devices (which output 1080p signals) have the ability to 'downrez' (lower the resolution) to output an image to ANY TV. You will need to make required settings for the resolution you want to display in the devices which output 1080p signals."

"We understand your concern regarding the Sales Literature and the Instruction Manual that say that the television accepts the 1080P input signals. It is true that your television is having the capability of receiving the 1080p signals. However the output would not be 1080p as it is capable of displaying till 1080i signals. Please be informed that the display would be 'downrez' (lower the resolution) on your television."

Here is the article you are looking for: http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

The reply you received from Sony is incorrect!! "However the output would not be 1080p as it is capable of displaying till 1080i signals. " LCDs are incapable of displaying any interlaced signal. If they are talking about CRTs or Alis sets then the answer could be correct but it is incorrect for most plasma and LCD flat panels.
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post #4 of 15
1/31/07 at 12:36pm
Thanks. That's another data point that helps. As best I can tell, one of the rampant communications problems is that people often refer to 30 frames of information per second as "1080i" and 60 frames of information per second as "1080p" - regardless of what's being displayed. And since (I gather) no one is actually transmitting 60 non-duplicate frames per second, it hardly matters. But it occurred to me it may be causing some incompatibility with other equipment that is trying to refresh (or whatever other operation) at 60 frames per second.

If that theory is all scewed up let me know, and I'll start reading all the threads again.
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post #5 of 15
1/31/07 at 12:50pm
Sheesh. More Sony smoke & mirrors.

I'd like them to stop by and set my PC to 1080i output and leave it capable of using a Sony TV's 1920x1080 resolution.

Hah - maybe this is why I didn't buy a Sony
Didn't all their early SXRDs also lack 1080p input capability?
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post #6 of 15
1/31/07 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarls View Post

Thanks. That's another data point that helps. As best I can tell, one of the rampant communications problems is that people often refer to 30 frames of information per second as "1080i" and 60 frames of information per second as "1080p" - regardless of what's being displayed. And since (I gather) no one is actually transmitting 60 non-duplicate frames per second, it hardly matters. But it occurred to me it may be causing some incompatibility with other equipment that is trying to refresh (or whatever other operation) at 60 frames per second.

If that theory is all scewed up let me know, and I'll start reading all the threads again.

Read this http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

What it boils down to is for viewing movies, reg. tv shows etc. there is no difference in 1080i and 1080p as long as sets properly deinterlace. It does state that "If you're a gamer, then there is a difference, as 1080p/60 from a computer can be 60 different frames per second (instead of 24 different frames per second doubled and tripled, as with movie content)."
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post #7 of 15
2/1/07 at 8:29am
Thanks again infecti0n! With that in mind, my read on the Sony Tech Support responses (actually I got essentially the same message from two different reps) was that they were telling me the XBR2 will only support 30 frames of unique info per second. Somewhere between input and display there is some subcomponent that will not pass 60 frames of non-duplicate info per second. Do you have other sources to indicate that they are just plain wrong, or might it be that the XBR2 was never built to support gaming at 60 frames/sec?
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post #8 of 15
2/1/07 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarls View Post

Thanks again infecti0n! With that in mind, my read on the Sony Tech Support responses (actually I got essentially the same message from two different reps) was that they were telling me the XBR2 will only support 30 frames of unique info per second. Somewhere between input and display there is some subcomponent that will not pass 60 frames of non-duplicate info per second. Do you have other sources to indicate that they are just plain wrong, or might it be that the XBR2 was never built to support gaming at 60 frames/sec?

Sorry, I'm confused.

The KDL 40 or 46 XBR2 or XBR3 clearly shows in their specs and in the manual for the PC input that it supports 1920x1080 at 60Hz. Doesn't that answer your question?

Also if you go and READ the references (the Home Theater articles) you can see, that the XBR2 does pass the DeInterlace and 1080p Bandwidth tests (with DRC off). Also the post about models manufactured after Sept does NOT even apply to the XBR2 that was the the Rear Projection S50A2000.

Finally, I find "information" like the second Home Theater link to be very misleading. As he is answering like an engineer to what he postulated the question (of 1080p vs 1080i) to mean.

His answer is NOT incorrect, but applies only to HIS question.

To a consumer standing in a store asking 1080p vs 1080i, he is referring to the stickers on the sets. Before "full HD 1080p" panels (of 1920x1080) came out, most panels were around 1280x720, BUT support 1080i. I guarantee you if you look at 1080p panel vs a "1080i" panel (meaning a 720p panel that supports 1080i), you WILL see a difference (if the TV has a decent scaler). WITHOUT regard to the signal input (meaning you will see improvement whether 480, 720, or 1080).
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post #9 of 15
2/6/07 at 6:51am
As I recall, all this started when I was in communication with Oppo tech support. Some Oppo users were complaining that their 1080p upconverting players were showing maximum upconversion to 1080i when connected to some "1080p" sets. They said that a number of advertised "1080p" sets really only support 1080p/24 or in some cases do not support 1080p at all.

So anyway, I started engaging Sony Tech Support on what the XBR2 really supports, and two different reps basically said "sorry, the XBR2 isn't really a true 1080p set in spite of what the manual says and in spite of all the advertising". My sense was that if two independent Sony tech support reps come to the same conclusion about their own set, that ought to be better than any contrary opinion from Home Theater, Sound and Vision, CNET, or anyone else. But that was just a guess.
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post #10 of 15
2/6/07 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarls View Post

As I recall, all this started when I was in communication with Oppo tech support. Some Oppo users were complaining that their 1080p upconverting players were showing maximum upconversion to 1080i when connected to some "1080p" sets. They said that a number of advertised "1080p" sets really only support 1080p/24 or in some cases do not support 1080p at all.

Old news. There are many 1080p display sets that do not accept 1080p inputs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarls View Post

So anyway, I started engaging Sony Tech Support on what the XBR2 really supports, and two different reps basically said "sorry, the XBR2 isn't really a true 1080p set in spite of what the manual says and in spite of all the advertising". My sense was that if two independent Sony tech support reps come to the same conclusion about their own set, that ought to be better than any contrary opinion from Home Theater, Sound and Vision, CNET, or anyone else. But that was just a guess.

Who wrote "contrary" opinions"? You need to reread. ANY display of 1920x1080 is a 1080p set. This does not mean they will all accept 1080p inputs but that everything they display is 1080p. Sony 'coined' the phrase "true 1080p" to market sets that both accept and display 1080p.
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post #11 of 15
2/6/07 at 7:55am
Sorry, my points tend to get lost in these threads as different definitions get thrown around. The simplistic basis of my questions to Sony and others has been this... 1920 x 1080 pixels x 60 frames per second = 124.4 million pixels per second. If I have a source (or if I get a source in the future) that can transmit 124.4 million pixels per second of unique data to the TV (not by doubling or tripling lesser data to get duplicate information for the display), can my TV take advantage of that much unique information from input to output display? It seems that the Sony tech support answer is no. It seems that other authors will say yes or no depending on who you ask. And it seems that most people/publications can't get on the same wavelength (so to speak) to answer the question because they're stuck on some definition or other. The closest I got was when the Home Theater test showed that earlier XBR2's literally did not have the bandwidth in their internal circuitry to pass that much information per second. But other than that, I have never been able to sort it out.
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post #12 of 15
2/6/07 at 8:51am
my gosh this gets so confused:

-there is no difference between 1080i/1080p [for all practical purposes] as long as the 1080i is properly deinterlaced

-Flat panel displays are fixed pixel: meaning they display a progressive signal: if they receive an interlaced signal, it first has to be deinterlaced

-some displays do not properly deinterlace a 1080i signal because of limitations of the processor [ they drop some of the signal]: however many newer 1080 displays have more powerful processors and do handle the deinterlacing properly

-some displays are 1080p but only accept a 1080i signal: this means the 1080i signal must pass through the display's built in deinterlacer: however many newer 1080 displays now accept 1080p directly
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post #13 of 15
2/6/07 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

my gosh this gets so confused:

-there is no difference between 1080i/1080p [for all practical purposes] as long as the 1080i is properly deinterlaced

ONLY when you compare 1080p24-sourced material that has been correctly interlaced to 1080i60 and can therefore (hopefully) be correctly deinterlaced to 1080p again. However, once 1080p60 cameras become commonplace, the only way to transmit that WITHOUT LOSS would be 1080i120 (debunking your 'no difference by adding this caveat). And digitally rendered movies, as wella s 1080p movies (LOTR, Shrek and whatnot) can be rendered at 1080p60 onto BluRay ad HDDVD discs. If your TV is only 1080i capable, you WILL lose information (a lot, if it is a non projector, meaning it will downconvert the resolution to 720p or thereabouts, also!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

-Flat panel displays are fixed pixel: meaning they display a progressive signal: if they receive an interlaced signal, it first has to be deinterlaced

Correct. And this one is VERY important, and people always forget it. I hate it when someone describes their DLP/Plasma/LCD as being a 1080i TV. It is 1080i CAPABLE, but its native display is ALWAYS progressive, and if its resolution is 720p (or worse, like 1024x768), then it needs to deinterlace AND downsize that 1080i source!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

-some displays do not properly deinterlace a 1080i signal because of limitations of the processor [ they drop some of the signal]: however many newer 1080 displays have more powerful processors and do handle the deinterlacing properly

Absolutely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

-some displays are 1080p but only accept a 1080i signal: this means the 1080i signal must pass through the display's built in deinterlacer: however many newer 1080 displays now accept 1080p directly

This is now VERY uncommon. For a while it was the norm (early Sharp Aquos LCDs and the first batch of Sony SXRD 1080p dumbo-ears versions. Almost every 1080p TV available now, and released in the last year or more recently, also accepts 1080p signal via one or more inputs!
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post #14 of 15
2/6/07 at 12:16pm
Let's say I buy a plasma with a max. res of 720P. Can I view a Blu Ray on it even though the plasma is not 1080p?
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post #15 of 15
2/6/07 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paleman27 View Post

Let's say I buy a plasma with a max. res of 720P. Can I view a Blu Ray on it even though the plasma is not 1080p?

Yeah, you can. The player would have to output it in 1080i, assuming your plasma can handle 1080i and then the plasma deinterlaces and downconverts to 720p (or its 1024x768 resolution, which is more common.

For kicks and gigles, have the player send out 720P, if it's capable of that, so the TV gets a (nearly) ready-to-display format. Compare the PQ. It is likely that the TV will have a better scaler, but one never knows!
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