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2 DVDs just destroyed by my 5 mth old Panasonic EH-75V DVR

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
Have created ~ 300 DVDs since purchasing my Panasonic EH-75V DVR in July.

This morning when I was finalizing 2 DVD compilations that I was going to send as Christmas gifts, it wiped both DVDs.

Both already had ~ 2 recordings on them already. I was adding a third and going to finalize them.

Both ended with Copy Failed, and this extra munching sound. The onscreen message was that there was a problem with the disc, and the unit would power off and power back on and attempt a recovery, which I guess didn't work.

I've cleaned it twice with one of those cleaning discs, once 2 months ago, and once after the first failure.

The discs are HP DVD -R's. One very new, and one from August.

I would cry if it wiped another DVD that contains different short recordings over a long period.

Any suggestions?

Stachel
post #2 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

Have created ~ 300 DVDs since purchasing my Panasonic EH-75V DVR in July.

This morning when I was finalizing 2 DVD compilations that I was going to send as Christmas gifts, it wiped both DVDs.

Both already had ~ 2 recordings on them already. I was adding a third and going to finalize them.

Both ended with Copy Failed, and this extra munching sound. The onscreen message was that there was a problem with the disc, and the unit would power off and power back on and attempt a recovery, which I guess didn't work.

I've cleaned it twice with one of those cleaning discs, once 2 months ago, and once after the first failure.

The discs are HP DVD -R's. One very new, and one from August.

I would cry if it wiped another DVD that contains different short recordings over a long period.

Any suggestions?

Stachel

Were these recorded with the FR mode or the preset modes?

Using a 2005 Panasonic (ES20) I have done compilation DVDs over time (up to 12 months in between) on various DVD-R brands. The only time I had a problem is when I tried to mass-edit title-names on a DVD with many short titles (music videos)
post #3 of 36
Is the recorder still functioning?
post #4 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

Is the recorder still functioning?

Westly, Yes. The Recorder to HDD is still working, and I just copied a Sunrise Earth (the new one) to a DVD, and am finalizing it now.

What I'm mildly panicing about is that I have 100 DVD's that are un-finalized...

And I'm still hearing this extra CRUNCHing sound at times as the DVD records. It makes me wince each time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncaahoops View Post

Were these recorded with the FR mode or the preset modes?

Hi ncaahoops, these were all recorded *to* the Panasonic HDD by going from my Scientific Atlantic 8300HD "copy to VCR" function, and then the DVD was created by copying in High Speed mode.

One of the DVD's destroyed had 1 43-minute recording on it, and I was adding 1 15 min recording to it (high speed mode). The other one had 4 or 5 10-minute recordings on it.

If I get a different DVD-recorder (different brand) will those finalize the ones burned by my Panasonic?

Stachel
post #5 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

If I get a different DVD-recorder (different brand) will those finalize the ones burned by my Panasonic?

unfortunately,definitely not.
post #6 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Lococco View Post

unfortunately,definitely not.

Hmmmmmm....... Sooooo...... to finalize my unfinalized discs on a different player, would the DVD-R have to be another Panasonic? Or..... the same model Panasonic?
post #7 of 36
I'm not sure,but I believe it was ncaahoops that was able to finalize discs he made on an es20,with an es15,hopefully he'll be along soon to confirm it.
post #8 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

Hmmmmmm....... Sooooo...... to finalize my unfinalized discs on a different player, would the DVD-R have to be another Panasonic? Or..... the same model Panasonic?

I had an unfinalized disc made on my 2 1/3 year old hdd model E85, so I attempted to finalize it on my year old vhs/dvd recorder combo, Panasonic E30. It worked. So another Panasonic recorder should do the trick, though as you mention it's still finalized another disc.
It just may have been that disc, probably a defect somewhere on it. What brand media are you using?
post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

It just may have been that disc, probably a defect somewhere on it. What brand media are you using?

It was 2 different discs - both HP DVD-R, from 2 completely different spindles, one very new, one 3 months old.

I would blame the discs, *except* for the munching sound that started to occur in my Panasonic while writing DVDs.

Both times the fatal error happened, I heard the munching sound, then the % progress halted. The munching sound started ~ 5 days ago.

Stachel
post #10 of 36
Not to be preachy but I will suggest that having hundreds of unfinalized discs is a bad idea.

From a post I made not too long ago at VideoHelp.com, in response to a similar problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

My blanks remain in a cake box until I am ready to, all at once, burn the content and finalize. None of this adding content over a period of time, and leaving it unfinalized. Fingerprints/dust may cause a problem during playback, but clearing the contamination will make it play again. Not so when recording and there is that kind of contamination. You're just screwed, unless you hold onto the source material until you confirm the complete burn. The more you handle the disc before you finish burning it, the more opportunity for such contamination to get to it.

The good news is that ISOBuster can apparently read the data off of unfinalized discs.
post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

Have created ~ 300 DVDs since purchasing my Panasonic EH-75V DVR in July.

This morning when I was finalizing 2 DVD compilations that I was going to send as Christmas gifts, it wiped both DVDs.

Both already had ~ 2 recordings on them already. I was adding a third and going to finalize them.

Both ended with Copy Failed, and this extra munching sound. The onscreen message was that there was a problem with the disc, and the unit would power off and power back on and attempt a recovery, which I guess didn't work.

I've cleaned it twice with one of those cleaning discs, once 2 months ago, and once after the first failure.

The discs are HP DVD -R's. One very new, and one from August.

I would cry if it wiped another DVD that contains different short recordings over a long period.

Any suggestions?

Stachel


Your going to have to first figure out if it's the discs or your recorder.

I would start by going out and buy some different media, something in a small quantity. Then do some test burns of stuff you like but don't delete anything off the hard drive until you can successfully finalize those discs. I would burn at least 10 discs and listen for that "extra munching sound" while its burning. If you can make it through at least 10 discs that are of a different batch/brand, then that might be implicating your HP media as the problem. But honestly, that "extra munching sound", IMO, sounds like it's your recorder starting to go bad.


nx211
post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

Have created ~ 300 DVDs since purchasing my Panasonic EH-75V DVR in July.

This morning when I was finalizing 2 DVD compilations that I was going to send as Christmas gifts, it wiped both DVDs.

Both already had ~ 2 recordings on them already. I was adding a third and going to finalize them.

Both ended with Copy Failed, and this extra munching sound. The onscreen message was that there was a problem with the disc, and the unit would power off and power back on and attempt a recovery, which I guess didn't work.

I've cleaned it twice with one of those cleaning discs, once 2 months ago, and once after the first failure.

The discs are HP DVD -R's. One very new, and one from August.



I would cry if it wiped another DVD that contains different short recordings over a long period.

Any suggestions?

Stachel

I know one thing- your DVD media was not DVD-RAM or TY?. There are so many errors in your technique that we cannot help but say it was screwed up from the beginning. It was. You used HP discs intead of Taiyo Yuden?- Your freaking fault. Why don't you read this board more often?
post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy View Post

I know one thing- your DVD media was not DVD-RAM or TY?. There are so many errors in your technique that we cannot help but say it was screwed up from the beginning. It was. You used HP discs intead of Taiyo Yuden?- Your freaking fault. Why don't you read this board more often?


Easy HG, you could be a little nicer to the Newbies.

He's right about Taiyo Yuden and DVD-RAM discs tho Stachel. If you want to isolate the problem as fast as possible, the premium line of Taiyo Yuden really shouldn't let you down. 10 or so successful burns to that brand would clearly implicate the HP media as the problem.

However, if you want to combine testing with permanence, I would avoid the DVD-RAM discs for archival use. But honestly, HP has a reputation at stake and my initial thought is still the recorder starting to go bad, rather than the HP media. Nevertheless, you need to do some testing.


nx211
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy View Post

I know one thing- your DVD media was not DVD-RAM or TY?. There are so many errors in your technique that we cannot help but say it was screwed up from the beginning. It was. You used HP discs intead of Taiyo Yuden?- Your freaking fault. Why don't you read this board more often?

So many errors in your technique?? Perhaps not finalizing discs as you create them is a poor practice, but this is a feature that is offered, so until you have problems it seems logical to do it. I assume one of the other "errors" you mention is poor media. HP is a well known company and if it was me I would trust it against some company called "Taiyo Yuden", at least until I learned better. That's two errors. Hardly "so many" and these are "errors" that anyone is likely to make. On top of that Stachel has made 300 discs with no glitches so far. Can you say the same HoustonGuy? As for reading the board more often, well believe it or not, some people don't have the time.
post #15 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

What I'm mildly panicing about is that I have 100 DVD's that are un-finalized...
Stachel

Leaving stacks of unfinalized DVD's is bad practice. Drop that habit in the future. Also: if you intend to continue assembling discs by adding segments over time, then make use of your HDD or store the segments on DVD-RAM until you are ready for final assembly and burning.
post #16 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

Not to be preachy but I will suggest that having hundreds of unfinalized discs is a bad idea.

In hindsight, yes. Even with hindsight though, I'm not sure what the alternative is given the nature of my project:

- The project involves combining 5 min (sometimes less) - 15 minute segments of video from different periods of time, on ~ 80 different subjects. Each DVD holds ~ 60 minutes of XP. It takes ~ 3 -5 months to fill up a DVD.

Not having hundreds of un-finalized discs would mean using tons more discs where 200 theoretically should be able to work.

or... (checking my assumption)
@5 min / segment ==> ~ 10 segments / disc = 10 discs where 1 should do
==> 2000 discs needed
@ 15 min / segment ==> ~ 4 segments / disk = 4 discs where 1 should do
==> 800 discs needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

The good news is that ISOBuster can apparently read the data off of unfinalized discs.

Thank you for this tip. I will google it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nx211 View Post

DVD-RAM discs

... I haven't seen this type of disc for sale in the stores, and thought that something this exotic (not in stores) would have less stability and long-term testing and results than DVD-R's, which are available everywhere. That's why I didn't consider it as viable for this project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nx211 View Post

If you want to isolate the problem as fast as possible, the premium line of Taiyo Yuden really shouldn't let you down. 10 or so successful burns to that brand would clearly implicate the HP media as the problem.

However, if you want to combine testing with permanence, I would avoid the DVD-RAM discs for archival use. But honestly, HP has a reputation at stake and my initial thought is still the recorder starting to go bad, rather than the HP media. Nevertheless, you need to do some testing.

Testing results:

I can finalize discs OK even with that extra munching sound. I have finalized 5 discs and created and finalized 10 new discs. (10 Sunrise Earths - long XP repordings copied in High Speed mode as a test.)

All with the HP media.

What I *haven't* tried (cos I'm afraid to) is adding on a short segment to an *existing* disc with 4 other short segments already on them. That was the use case that caused the 2 dead discs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy View Post

There are so many errors in your technique

What exactly were the errors?

According to all docs and everything I've read before bobkart's reply above, DVD-R's are meant for multi-session record-and-finalize later.

From ~ 10 hrs reading this forum, I decided on:
- which model DVDR to get
- which media to *avoid* (Memorex definitely, and bad quotes about TDK and Fuji). I never saw anything bad about Hewlett Packard media, it seems to be widely available, and I've always had good "luck" with their blank CDs (am calling it luck because I know my sample size of 1 doesn't imply statistically significant high quality.
- which DVD-type to use (DVD -R , not DVD +R for my purpose)
- what copy method to use (high-speed) after I started out using the lower rates which actually took lots longer

This forum is rich in true experts with lots of experience, and I do value that highly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy View Post

...that we cannot help but say it was screwed up from the beginning.

re: "screwed up from the beginning"

Wow, that's so... all-encompassing:
So...... I shouldn't have bought this model?
and/or, I shouldn't have used DVD-R's for my purpose?
and/or, I shouldn't have been using HP, because I never saw anything bad written about it, and because my personal experience with HP media has been very high quality?
and/or, I shouldn't be copying in high-speed mode?

Which?

re: "we"... just curious - Mr. We, who else are We speaking for?


I used to work with someone who had similar reactions as you did whenever anything started to go wrong on a project. And with really difficult projects, things rarely go perfectly. At the first sign of trouble, he would immediately switch into blame-mode, not analyze-mode, as others (Quoted above, and JeffWld quoted below) thankfully have. Knee-jerking into Blame Mode had a detrimental effect on resolving the problem. Root cause was blame and his early-life experiences. With some negative coaching from our boss ("Stop it or you're fired") and positive coaching from his peers, he fixed himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWld View Post

Also: if you intend to continue assembling discs by adding segments over time, then make use of your HDD or store the segments on DVD-RAM until you are ready for final assembly and burning.

Yep - I am trying to do that, and as a result, am constantly in 1 hour of running out of space on my HD.

Stachel
post #17 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stachel View Post

In hindsight, yes. Even with hindsight though, I'm not sure what the alternative is given the nature of my project:

- The project involves combining 5 min (sometimes less) - 15 minute segments of video from different periods of time, on ~ 80 different subjects. Each DVD holds ~ 60 minutes of XP. It takes ~ 3 -5 months to fill up a DVD.

WAG: One thing that might be causing a problem is "border zones" on your -R media?

These are lead-in and lead-out (non-recordable) zones required between successive recordings.

An expert article on +R vs. -R stated that -R requires as much as 132MB for border zones in a multi-session (3-title) recording.

A +R disc would require only 4MB for the same 3 titles (all zones are 2MB each).

So, for your future compilations, maybe you can shorten the total recording time at XP to ~4% less (57.5 min. for 5 titles?) than what you might expect since your discs will contain more than three titles and possibly twice as many border zones.

You don't need to double the 132MB 'cause the first zone on a -R takes up most of the extra space (32-96MB) compared to each succeeding zone (6-18MB).

OR you can try/test +Rs and see if they allow just a tad bit more multi-session recording time???
post #18 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy View Post

I know one thing- your DVD media was not DVD-RAM or TY?. There are so many errors in your technique that we cannot help but say it was screwed up from the beginning. It was. You used HP discs intead of Taiyo Yuden?- Your freaking fault. Why don't you read this board more often?

Well, okay HG. Merry Christmas to you too.

Stachel, the noise your machine is making is NOT a good sign. There is nothing wrong with the EH-75V as a machine, but you might have gotten one with a bad component in it. Since it is only five months old, I would seriously ask whoever you bought it from to give you a replacement.
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Lococco View Post

I'm not sure,but I believe it was ncaahoops that was able to finalize discs he made on an es20,with an es15,hopefully he'll be along soon to confirm it.

I think it was a couple of posters, perhaps Mike99 or some of the other early adopters/testers of the ES15. They were able to finalize the DVDs that the ES20 would not finalize, which is a good sign.

I only have the ES20 but I will take any recorder as a tape-delayed Xmas present ;-)
post #20 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncaahoops View Post

I only have the ES20 but I will take any recorder as a tape-delayed Xmas present ;-)

Hey, hoops, how 'bout one that only works upside down!?
post #21 of 36
Ideally one should finalize a DVD after it is recorded, or at least before the original source is deleted or overwritten. Especially if it is something that is a one-time program or something hard to find.

However, some types of DVDs (eg music videos, or sports highlights) take time. For example if you are makinga DVD of U2 music videos or performances, and you don't have a hard disk recorder, it may take a few months to find enough material to finalize the DVD. I have been doing this for 12+ months, and once I started using these two rules of thumb I did not have any problems:
1) Edit the title name or thumbnail right after you record a program.
2) Leave at least 20-30 LP minutes of unwritten space on the DVD. The more titles you have, the more space I leave.


What got me into trouble:
1) Mass-editing title names when the DVD is almost full
2) Filling up the DVD (eg 5 minutes LP left) and trying to finalize a DVD full of short titles (eg music videos).


This approach has the side-effect of not being able to watch the content on a dvd player before finalization. So I am also trying the DVD-RAM approach where I can watch it on my Panasonic DVD player at any time.

Obviously there are better ways to do this (eg DVD recorder with a HDD, or using a PC/Mac), but not everyone has that option or wants to be PC-editing.
post #22 of 36

I'll take that too :-) I'll use it on days where I am in an upside-down mood :-)
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nx211 View Post

However, if you want to combine testing with permanence, I would avoid the DVD-RAM discs for archival use.

Huh?

DVD-RAM was designed as a computer data archival medium, and as such is arguably better for archival storage than DVD-Rs are.
post #24 of 36
I didn't know that the speed of DVD-RAMs affected it's rewrite-ability. From Wikipedia:

"Long life without physical damage, data is retained for 30 years minimum.

Can be rewritten over 100,000 times (DVD±RW can be rewritten approx. 1,000 times). Faster DVD-RAMs support fewer rewrites (3x speed: 100,000, 5x speed: 10,000), but still more than DVD±RW. (Remember, these are theoretical numbers. In practice they could be smaller depending on the drive, the treatment of the disc and the file system.)"
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porker View Post

So many errors in your technique?? Perhaps not finalizing discs as you create them is a poor practice, but this is a feature that is offered, so until you have problems it seems logical to do it. I assume one of the other "errors" you mention is poor media. HP is a well known company and if it was me I would trust it against some company called "Taiyo Yuden", at least until I learned better. That's two errors. Hardly "so many" and these are "errors" that anyone is likely to make. On top of that Stachel has made 300 discs with no glitches so far. Can you say the same HoustonGuy? As for reading the board more often, well believe it or not, some people don't have the time.

For reference, HP does not make media, they buy from others and re-brand it. They are known to buy from CMC Magnetics (Taiwan) which is tier-4 bottom-of-the-barrel media (i.e. Memorex). Taiyo-Yuden from Japan sits near the top of tier-1 and is one of the best (if not the best) makers of media today.

The "munching" sounds reported could simply be sounds of distress the drive is having trying to cope with inferior media that may have degraded over the period of time between recordings. Inferior media is most problematic and error prone at the outer edge of the disk (often associated with dye-spread issues during manufacture). Since DVDs are recorded from the center out, problems with inferior media are most likely to arise with later recordings as the disk is filled.

I myself have heard my PC drives make some god-awful sounds as they eventually spit out a couple of CompUSA DVD-R (Princo, bottom of tier-3) from a small stack that was provided to me by a friend to do some burns on.
post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

For reference, HP does not make media, they buy from others and re-brand it. They are known to buy from CMC Magnetics (Taiwan) which is tier-4 bottom-of-the-barrel media (i.e. Memorex). Taiyo-Yuden from Japan sits near the top of tier-1 and is one of the best (if not the best) makers of media today.

HP does not make a lot of things they put their name on, however they are a company that is a household name and hold the #1 position in a number of categories related to the production/sales/R & D (I won't mention support lol) of computers, servers, printers and other PC peripherals. On top of that, they only guarantee their own media on their DVD burners, which I think would lead a person to believe that their discs would be of good quality. Unfortunately they don't put a sticker on their packaging announcing that their media is "tier-4, bottom of the line" product.

My point is, that in my opinion, it is understandable that a person would purchase HP discs. I don't think Taiyo-Yuden discs are available in stores (correct me if I'm wrong on this point), and therefor would not be known to the casual user, myself included (at least until I discovered this wonderful forum).

Now I am enlightened and I won't buy HP media for quality recordings.
post #27 of 36
Stachel, I collect some music vids, and some hard to find cartoons, such as original B&W Warner Bros. cartoons. I record them to -RW discs, in VR mode. When I have enough to fill a disc, I record them back to the HDD at HS, finish any needed editing, make a copy list, then dub them to a -R Video Mode disc in HS.
post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Stachel, I collect some music vids, and some hard to find cartoons, such as original B&W Warner Bros. cartoons. I record them to -RW discs, in VR mode. When I have enough to fill a disc, I record them back to the HDD at HS, finish any needed editing, make a copy list, then dub them to a -R Video Mode disc in HS.


Stachel,

Because the EH75V does not record to DVD-RW in VR mode, you can't do what kjbawc does with DVD-RW's, but you CAN do what he does with DVD-RAM discs and I suggest that you adopt his approach (using DVD-RAM). Best Buy typically carries Panasonic DVD-RAM, but you can also order DVD-RAM directly from Panasonic.com for a reasonable price (typically with free shipping). They have 25-disc spindles for about $29.99US and you can also get 15-pack DVD-RAMs with thin jewel cases for about $19.99US. Just join Club Panasonic (basically just a registered shopper - no charge to register) and they periodically run specials such as 10% off for Club Members and free shipping. DVD-RAM is the way to go for your projects vs. DVD-R. DVD-RAM is a more robust disc format for your usage pattern and RAM's don't have to be finalized. When you've filled the RAM, high speed dub it to the EH75V HDD and then high speed dub the compilation back to DVD-R for permanent archiving. I actually permanently archive to DVD-RAM or DVD-RW (in VR) mode rather than DVD-R because the RW/RAM discs have demonstrated a greater reliability for me vs. DVD-R and I like the playback features and metadata title and recording information you can store on them.

Good luck!
post #29 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari View Post

but you CAN do what he does with DVD-RAM discs [...] DVD-RAM is a more robust disc format for your usage pattern and RAM's don't have to be finalized.

Thanks vferrari, am taking this approach now.

Ordered and received the DVD-RAM discs. Have been traveling most of this month and have only attempted to finalize 10 more of my current DVD-R's.

My Panasonic's EH-75V's kill rate = it destroyed 2 of the 10.
1 kill happened during finalizing.
1 kill happened when changing the thumnail.

When this happens, I see an error "There is a problem with your Disc". It then tells me about a power-down sequence that will happen. When I power the system back on, the DVD-R is empty.


Started using the DVD-RAM. I started a copy from DVD-RAM back to HDD before going to bed. I remember wondering why I didn't see speed options... no speed options to choose from I believe. The next morning I had an hour + recording on my HDD of only the menu screen of the DVD-RAM. I will re-read the above to see what I'm doing wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari View Post

I actually permanently archive to DVD-RAM or DVD-RW (in VR) mode rather than DVD-R because the RW/RAM discs have demonstrated a greater reliability for me vs. DVD-R and I like the playback features and metadata title and recording information you can store on them.

What extra playback features and metadata extra info do you get with DVD-RAM or DVD-RW, that you don't get with DVD-R ?
post #30 of 36
First of all DVD-RAM can ONLY be dubbed back to the HDD in HIGH SPEED mode. Recordings from the HDD can be dubbed TO DVD-RAM in any quality mode (provided sufficient disc space is available).

The additional playback features of DVD-RAM include chase play/time slip (which is not available on non-VR mode discs on Panny recorders) and selectable thumbnails and chapter stops (on the fly). I also have a DVD-RAM editing program called Panasonic Movie Album - that allows me to add text notes and categorize recordings (e.g., comedy, drama, sports, etc) in the data field of the ifo file. This data can show up on some DVD-RAM capable players.
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