HIGH POWER a Review! Part 1 - Page 51

We just got set up with an Epson 6500UB and a 106" Picture King portable screen with High Power material in a non-light controlled living room with several windows. The projector is about 18' from the screen and we sit between 11 and 14' away with eye height about at the same level as the projector and close to on axis. We set the screen as low as it will go, about 12" off the floor so our eye height and the projector are close to the middle.

At night on Theater Black, with the lights out and the only street light nearby from the side, it is spectacular with reasonable blacks and dazzling whites compared to a Pioneer Kuro 50" plasma TV. In late afternoon with enough light coming in the windows to very comfortably read by, using Living Room, it is quite watchable. Fortunately there isn't much direct light from the direction of the projector.

Moving from side to side, it seems to me that if you are at a comfortable viewing angle, the screen brightness is fine. There is some fall off, but by the time it gets to really being an issue, you're so far off axis that it isn't pleasant to watch anyway.

BTW - we got all this from the Projector People and were very happy with their price, service and delivery.

Bottom line - What's not to like?

My setup is somewhat similar, so I know just where you are coming from. Enjoy!

I am excited as I just got an Epson 6500UB and am trying to decide on a screen. I have been reading about the many happy viewers and am considering the high power, but am not sure it is the right choice.

Here is my situation. Due to a low roof with duct work in the middle I was not quite sure where to place the projector. (Ceiling mount not really an option and I can't shelf mount on the back of the room due to distance and counter seating) With the 6500s good horizontal lens shift I am actually going to place this at a somewhat unique position. I am going to place it on the right side wall of my long and somewhat narrow basement. I know this is not as ideal as directly on axis, but I will be placing it fairly close to eye level.

When I plug the numbers into FLBoys calculator (thanks FLBoy) these are my approximate gain numbers
Screen left 1.6, Screen center 1.4, Screen right 1.35

I have not heard much discussion, if any about mounting it off to the side. What opinions do you have about a high power screen for my situation?

I don't really need the gain since I have a bright projector, but I am intrigued by some of the other benefits such as no screen waves,etc since I will be using a manual pull down screen. Cost is a factor as I am considering a model B high power screen or alternatively maybe just an Elite manual screen if the high power is not the best option.

Thanks for any opinions.

pelly- With your proposed far right PJ position, your right side viewers will experience a bright picture with the HP, while your left side viewers will see a dim picture--not good. If you do use the HP, I believe you will be much more pleased with the results if you mount the PJ on a stand high enough to clear the heads of your viewers and centered with the screen just behind your seating.

Alternatively, if you feel you MUST use the far right PJ mount, I would recommend a matte white, unity gain screen, which should give you a balanced brightness for all seats. If you are worried about waves, consider a fixed frame screen.

ETA- Are you sure the 6500UB has enough horizontal lens shift to place your PJ against the right wall in the first place? The horizontal lens shift is limited to 47% if you use no more than 9% vertical lens shift--less if you use more vertical. This means your PJ lens will have to be slightly inside the viewing area of the screen (horizontally), or you won't have enough lens shift to center the image. This would imply that your screen is jammed against your right wall, which itself is not a good idea. Am I missing something here?

I am sold on the high power fabric but would really like to have the remote operation functionality. Electric models in 96" length run around $800+, and is outside my budget.

Does Da-lite sell replacement screen fabric/elements? I have found an early model Cosmopolitan with a glass beaded screen and was considering purchasing it and replacing the fabric. Has anyone tried this?

The other half of tells me I should just buy a Model B or C high power and be done with it.

A friend of mine has a manual HP pull down. The operation is smooth and easy. I, for one, would be reluctant to try to replace fabric the way you suggest. Be off by just a tiny fraction of an inch at one end and the fabric will bind. Could be ugly.

I chatted with Damien at Da-Lite. They do offer instructions in PDF format on how to replace the screen elements in their screens. However, he also said that not all models have the same attach mechanisms. I believe he said their Electrol series fabric element attaches to the roller dowel with "gaffers tape"

Da-lite sells the high power replacement element for the older Cosmo Electrol but the 96"x96" it was over $600. For a little more than that I can buy a new unit turn key.

Am still interested in doing this if I can make fabric from the cheaper B model work

The high power sounds like the ticket as I like a bright picture but would the high power be overkill at a throw distance of about 9 feet 8 inches with a 6500UB? From what I have read it should do splendidly with longer throws and lower lumen projectors but the epson is bright and my throw distance is short, would I be better off with pearlescent or even a matt white? Projector will likely be mounted near the ceiling.

Absolute nonsense. My HP screen at rougly the same distance (a little further back) with a bright IN82 projector. I have no problems with the brightness level and love the quality and color of the picture I see. My eyes are normal and like those of most people.

You are one of many that seems to think with absolutely no proof given that there is some absolute brightness level which is optimum.

Give us a reference for the optimum brightness level you seem to think exist since most of us have never heard of it.

The iris of your eye automatically adjust the light level to a level that it has decided is best after millions of years of evolution. Unless you have some horrible eye disease, just let you eye handle it. Your eyes are most likely a lot better than your thinking aout brightness.

I think you misunderstood me, when I refer to overkill I refer to it being too bright (such that it may cause eye strain over extended periods) rather than actually a "perfect" amount of brightness (preference for brightness would differ from person to person). Perhaps my choice of words was wrong but I was just trying to put across the question that would the HP be too bright at this distance resulting in eye strain.

The largest diagonal the 6500UB can fill at 9'8' is 99". Your picture should be plenty bright with a unity gain screen. I know it's blasphemy to say it in this thread, but I would recommend a matte white screen unless you have ambient light issues. In that case, I would recommend a gain screen, but still not the HP unless you can lower the PJ to near seated eye level. Using the HP with a PJ on the ceiling will seriously reduce both its gain and (as a result) its ability to reject ambient light.

Yikes... so hostile to such an innocent question.

I think a case CAN be made for "too bright" in a dark room. A blazingly bright screen surrounded by a black room can be too intense. For example, I can't watch a regular TV in a pitch black room. It just reams my eyes out... way too bright.

I have to agree with this assessment. The HP isn't for everyone. We'd need more information to help out the original poster with his particular situation.

What exactly do you mean by a "unity gain screen" ?

There probably should be a little ambient light unfortunately I cannot test it as the room is still under construction. There is one large window in the room which will be behind a ceiling to floor curtain which I estimate should cover it nicely but would still leak some light but this is just a guess.

I am thinking about a 96" 16:9 image with the lens throw distance at about 9 feet 8 inches and "eye" viewing position at about 10 feet maybe 10 feet 2 inches. The ceiling is low about 95-98" off the floor and the PJ will likely be about 6" from the ceiling (top of the PJ), I could try to position it lower around 35" from the floor but then I would need horizontal lens shift, again this is kind of hard to be sure of as nothing is finished so I can't quite test it.

The room walls have soundproofing on it but nothing else so far, most likely will be putting cotton cloth on it, colors are undecided so could probably make it a slightly dark color if needed.

I do really like the brighter picture of an LCD TV so I'm looking for a LCD TV look @ 96".

I'm curious...

Have you ever actually OWNED an HP screen?

I only ask this because I've owned one for 4 years now. I first used it with a Sanyo Z2, a Sanyo Z4, and now, an Epson 6100.

Even in low lamp mode and using the Theater Black 1 setting, the HP gives an extremely gloriously BRIGHT image. When you move outside the "viewing cone", you are correct, there is a distinctly visable drop in gain.

Mind you, the resulting image when viewed from outside the viewing cone is still quite excellent. As a matter of fact, with the Epson 6100 (and I'm sure with the 6500 as well), moving from eye level with the projector to outside the viewing cone taes the image from AWESOME to EXCELLENT.

I would go as far as to say that, with either the Epson 6100 or 6500UB the HP screen would look far better from outside the viewing cone than any matte white screen. The image is MUCH more vivid, has way more plasma-like pop, even off-axis.

The Da-Lite Hi Power screen is one of the most maligned screens in existence. Maligned, mainly, by people who have never actually seen one in person.

Oh, did I just blaspheme?

Yes, I am currently using the HP and have been for the past two years. I love this screen, BUT my PJ is mounted at eye level to fully enjoy its retro-reflective goodness. I would never in my wildest dreams consider using the HP with the PJ mounted high on the ceiling--nor would I recommend that anyone else do that. YMMV.

Sorry, "unity gain" means a gain of 1.0.

If you want a bright picture and you can find a way to mount your PJ either at eye level between your viewing positions, or centered just above the heads of your viewers, then I would recommend the HP. Using a lot of horizontal lens shift is not recommended with the HP, as it will make seats on one side of the room brighter than the opposite side. Suggest you check out the screen gain calculator in my signature for further info.

I checked your screen gain calculator and I thought the default values were for the HP?

I didn't know some of the values requested so I assumed it was the HP values (it looked like it anyway) and filled out with my room info and received a gain of about 1.2 on axis and a little more off axis from your calculator with the default settings on the screen.

The HP would not seem like a good idea unless I am able to lower the PJ as you have said. Would the 1.0 matte white be bright enough with just a 1.0 gain? The projector central calculator says 28 fL for 1.0 on the epson which is considerably more than what I've read is generally recommended, between 15-22 fL, unfortunately I have no idea how bright this would be in a dark room. I do know that I think that the images at the theaters are not bright enough.

I also just looked into what the fL of LCD TVs would be and it seems they run about 130 fL for 450 cd/m2 (and often more) which is a lot for a PJ, running the numbers into the calculator at projector central I got 78 fL for a 2.8 gain screen with a 9 feet 8 inch throw and a 96" image for the 6500UB. I also tried using my LCD TV with all the lights off and it was straining on the eyes although the brightness did look good. I also noticed it was kind of lighting up the room quite a lot and its only a 32" LCD. I would imagine a PJ would be a bit too much at those brightness levels in a dark room.

Yes, as I recall, I did use the HP values as the default screen values in the calculator. Your gain numbers seem about right to me for a high ceiling mount.

Since you seem to like a bright picture, you will probably be happiest with the HP if you can put the PJ near seated eye level. Some members have used a telescoping extension pole with a ceiling mount to allow lowering the PJ during use and then raising the PJ back to the ceiling when not in use. I think Chief Manufacturing makes some of these.

I personally like a bright picture. I use the Epson 1080 Home with a 100" 16x9 HP screen. The PJ is mounted on a 36" high pedestal a few feet behind my main viewing seats, and it shoots between the heads of the two viewers. IIRC, my gain is around 2.3 for these two seats. I use low bulb in Theater Dark mode and estimate my screen brightness at 25-30 fL.

If you decide to use a high, fixed ceiling mount for the PJ, you will get better results with an angular reflective screen. I would suggest that you stay under 1.5 gain, because high gain AR screens are subject to hot spotting, especially at short throw. I also recommend getting a sample before buying, as some have highly visible surface texture.

Hope this helps.

Extremely helpful post! Thanks.

Now I want to look into the HP some more and try to bring the PJ down as close to eye level as I can so I can see what all the fuss is about , I don't think the viewing angle should be much of a problem as it would generally be used by 1-2 people at a time. Would it work best above the eyes rather than to the left or right?

If I could bring it down it would most likely be around 12" below eye level and to the left by about 25-30". I just used your calculator again (I must say absolutely brilliant tool!) and I'm getting about 2.3 center/left/right if I change it to the position I am thinking of.

I read that after calibration the 6500UB gives 587 lumens? In which case -

587 X 2.3 / 27.416 Sq/feet (84" X 47") = 49.24 fL

If I'm correct?

Edit - I just used the optional inputs and it gave me a gain of 1.4 for the center and 1.5 on the left and almost 1.6 on the right. When it says left or right of the screen center do you mean from the viewing position (my left/right) or from the screens perspective ?

Thanks! Not sure I understand your first question. I prefer to have the PJ at seated eye level and to sit on either side of the PJ beam. This allows room for a low table between the viewers for resting drinks and food. Someone who uses a sofa for seating or who needs three seats might prefer to locate the PJ just high enough for the PJ beam to clear the heads of the center viewer.

For best results the PJ should be centered horizontally on the screen. If the PJ is located to one side, viewers on that side will see a brighter image than viewers on the opposite side. A retro-reflective screen always reflects most of its light back towards the PJ lens. Using horizontal lens shift does not change that fact.

For the optional inputs, the calculator is asking how far the PJ is to the right or left of the screen center. This value is not affected by your viewing position. Please also be sure to use consistent measurement units (generally inches) when changing input values.

If I have misunderstood any of your questions, feel free to rephrase and ask again.

FLBoy was quite humble in his response to this. I consider FLBoy to be one of the HP "gurus" and he was instrumental in supplying the info that lead to me purchasing a HP screen. I'd reckon he spent quite a bit of time creating the calculator. He posts constantly in this thread and I don't know how it's possible to even fathom that he doesn't own a HP. Anyway, just giving due respect to FLBoy.

Thanks so much for your kind words, Chad T. I don't want to dismiss anyone's opinion in this forum, so I try to roll with the punches. I will say so when I disagree, but I attempt to never say anything I can't back up. I find that most members are very supportive. Kilgore is an obvious advocate of the HP, as am I. I think he just misread the substance of my overall message. Anyway, no problemo.

I mean to ask whether it would be better to keep the PJ to the left or right of the viewer or just slightly above their heads?

I understand that it means to the left or right of the screen but is it from my perspective across the room (so my left/right) or is the right/left from the screens perspective facing me? I would assume its from my perspective?

Neither up/down nor right/left is "better" for maximizing the gain. What determines the gain is the angle between a first line from the PJ's lens to a point on the screen and a second line from the viewer's eyes to the same point on the screen. The gain calculator uses 3-D vector math to calculate the angle. Ideally, for maximum gain you would want the PJ lens to be placed at the same position as the viewer's eyes, thereby producing a zero degree angle between the first and second lines. For obvious reasons, a compromise is required! For practical reasons, about the best you can expect to achieve is a 10 degree angle and a corresponding screen gain of around 2.3 for the HP. Whether your departure from the ideal of zero degrees is vertical or horizontal depends on your personal preference.

Yes, right and left are from your viewing perspective.

I just recalculated everything and I think that in TheaterBlack1 at low lamp power after calibration at max zoom I should be getting about 534 lumens (using - http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...erformance.php) and the screen gain is about 1.67 in the center with the HP. About 32 fL. Should be plenty bright.

Edit - To achieve this though the PJ would be quite close to my head, would the noise from it be a problem?

Depends on the PJ--and whether you use high or low power lamp mode. You will also have to consider the direction in which the PJ exhausts hot air. (You don't want it to blow hot air on you.) I solved both problems with my Epson 1080 Home by placing the PJ about 3 feet behind my seating and using low power mode.

Thanks a lot

Could you suggest a screen instead of the HP if the HP is not feasible? Planning to use the european/asian version of the 6500UB, the EH-TW4000.

If you have to go angular reflective, I'd generally suggest staying under 1.5 gain. I'm hesitant to recommend anything specific, as my only hands-on experience is with the HP. If you want to start your own thread, you might specify size, type (manual pull down, electric, or fixed frame), budget, etc., and see what kind of replies you get.

Good luck!

Got my 133" HP Cinema Contour up today. It really adds a ton of life to the picture. Detail and "POP" have increased immensely over my old Matte White. The blacks have increased as well, but the trade off is well worth it (and I'm big on black levels). It's really only noticeable in very dark scenes or if you're staring at the black bars of a cinemascope film. I'll probably rig up some sort of masking system for it.

The ability to reject light and still stay bright and watchable with tons of ambient light is one the most impressive things about it. It is better than I was expecting. Same with the viewing cone. It is really a non-issue. It is very watchable well off axis.

Still very highly recommended. I can't imagine ever going back to Matte White.