Originally Posted by Ian_S
Perhaps you or Amir would care to illustrate how in more detail using the figures from King Kong here
I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make Ian. The video part is not a fixed number. One can fine tune it more and squeeze it down as needed. Remember that the quality curve for VC-1 is highly exponential and approaches a very horizontal asymptote quickly. So looking at the file size for video doesn't tell you anything about what else you could put in there.
Put another way, when the bit budget is allocated for the various parts of the title, the data rate for video is dialed in and then encoding begins. Any trouble spots are then optimized. Given this process, you can't say that the file size had to be the number that was picked. A smaller number could be picked with potentially more hand tuning needed without degradation to the movie.
As to LOTR, you can't draw direct conclusions by looking at KK. The movies are different. They are encoded by different shops and amount of labor going into them is different. I can't give you any details about LOTR but having read the closed thread started by beatboy, I can tell you that whoever is feeding him data, is feeding him more incorrect information than correct. There is a much more correct post later in that thread
. And even that may turn out to be incorrect given the fact that the project is ongoing. The other thing I will hint at is that NL is really quality focused. They absolutely care about audio/video performance on this series.
Is LOTR going to be easy to encode? No. It is going to take work. As Ben pointed out though, we have shown that we can handle long length titles in HD DVD-30 with superb quality so we are no stranger to this work. Other than noting this fact, back of the envelop math on data size of other titles, etc. is going to make for long threads but provide you with little real data. If all movies behaved the same, we would have the same data rate for all of them but we don't. Unless you are compressionist and have a ton of experience with VC-1 and have access to the master, you cannot make a-priory
judgment about the quality of some title at certain data rate. After all, prior to launch of HD DVD, everyone thought the only way to get good picture was to use BD and we know clearly now that is not the case. And it has been the other guy on the defensive, having to show that they can produce good quality with their format.
Your other commentary regarding dubbed tracks is also problematic in my opinion. The consensus here and elsewhere has always been that it is the original track that has the highest fidelity and should be preserved as well as possible. Beyond that, a dubbed track simply does not need same level of quality because the mater isn't of the same quality. This is not to say that it is less enjoyable by people listening to it. I guarantee you that the people who listened to dubbed track on that title are not complaining about the quality or I would be hearing from about it, and you would be posting a reference to it. But we have seen none. The dubbed tracks simply are not for the enthusiasts - in the original or compressed form. But to average person, they still sound great.
But let's say you are right and there are people marching in streets, complaining about the dubbed tracks in KK. In that case, my answer is let's use the interactivity features of HD DVD and download those tracks to persistent storage. We have mandatory networking in HD DVD so we can always rely on that. And menus in HDi dynamically update after the download, letting the user select the other tracks as if they were always there.
As I responded to Darin last week, this whole notion that everything must fit on disc or else, is an antiquated concept. With DVD, we didn't have the internet. We do now. And we have a format in the form of HD DVD that fully provides this capability. As we have shown, HD DVD studios are pretty aggressive about using these capabilities. So while one may doubt the will of the other format to adopt anything but a straight disc format, you are not going to see us be shy here. Of course, if there is no market for a lossless dubbed Spanish track, you may not see this there. But why should we provide something where this is no market? And for whom? It is clear that you speak and understand English