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Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3] - Page 111  

post #3301 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJR View Post

Amir,
Many of us that are using crt projectors with the vga connection see and know of the broken video timing issue, we see it. Some of the best in the crt projector field are using the xbox because of the clean incredible image it puts out.

But, we are hoping that this will be addressed and fixed, it would make the 360 perfect, imagewise. To take the 360 to the next level there are some mods that can be done to it to improve the image it puts out, but, I won't discuss them here. If you don't know what you are doing you could destroy your xbox.

I am using a highly moded 9" (Marquee 9500) crt projector with the 360 and just love it, and amaze anyone who happens to see it.

Amir, I hope you can look into this further and find out if they will correct the timing problem. Thanks

I am not quite sure if timing issues you speak of in this situation is fully fixed. I got an answer from the Xbox folks that there are additional resolution settings in the spring update which may help out with this. What exactly this means, I haven't had time to investigate. As I learn more, I will report back.
post #3302 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_S View Post

Perhaps you or Amir would care to illustrate how in more detail using the figures from King Kong here..... ??

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make Ian. The video part is not a fixed number. One can fine tune it more and squeeze it down as needed. Remember that the quality curve for VC-1 is highly exponential and approaches a very horizontal asymptote quickly. So looking at the file size for video doesn't tell you anything about what else you could put in there.

Put another way, when the bit budget is allocated for the various parts of the title, the data rate for video is dialed in and then encoding begins. Any trouble spots are then optimized. Given this process, you can't say that the file size had to be the number that was picked. A smaller number could be picked with potentially more hand tuning needed without degradation to the movie.

As to LOTR, you can't draw direct conclusions by looking at KK. The movies are different. They are encoded by different shops and amount of labor going into them is different. I can't give you any details about LOTR but having read the closed thread started by beatboy, I can tell you that whoever is feeding him data, is feeding him more incorrect information than correct. There is a much more correct post later in that thread . And even that may turn out to be incorrect given the fact that the project is ongoing. The other thing I will hint at is that NL is really quality focused. They absolutely care about audio/video performance on this series.

Is LOTR going to be easy to encode? No. It is going to take work. As Ben pointed out though, we have shown that we can handle long length titles in HD DVD-30 with superb quality so we are no stranger to this work. Other than noting this fact, back of the envelop math on data size of other titles, etc. is going to make for long threads but provide you with little real data. If all movies behaved the same, we would have the same data rate for all of them but we don't. Unless you are compressionist and have a ton of experience with VC-1 and have access to the master, you cannot make a-priory judgment about the quality of some title at certain data rate. After all, prior to launch of HD DVD, everyone thought the only way to get good picture was to use BD and we know clearly now that is not the case. And it has been the other guy on the defensive, having to show that they can produce good quality with their format.

Your other commentary regarding dubbed tracks is also problematic in my opinion. The consensus here and elsewhere has always been that it is the original track that has the highest fidelity and should be preserved as well as possible. Beyond that, a dubbed track simply does not need same level of quality because the mater isn't of the same quality. This is not to say that it is less enjoyable by people listening to it. I guarantee you that the people who listened to dubbed track on that title are not complaining about the quality or I would be hearing from about it, and you would be posting a reference to it. But we have seen none. The dubbed tracks simply are not for the enthusiasts - in the original or compressed form. But to average person, they still sound great.

But let's say you are right and there are people marching in streets, complaining about the dubbed tracks in KK. In that case, my answer is let's use the interactivity features of HD DVD and download those tracks to persistent storage. We have mandatory networking in HD DVD so we can always rely on that. And menus in HDi dynamically update after the download, letting the user select the other tracks as if they were always there.

As I responded to Darin last week, this whole notion that everything must fit on disc or else, is an antiquated concept. With DVD, we didn't have the internet. We do now. And we have a format in the form of HD DVD that fully provides this capability. As we have shown, HD DVD studios are pretty aggressive about using these capabilities. So while one may doubt the will of the other format to adopt anything but a straight disc format, you are not going to see us be shy here. Of course, if there is no market for a lossless dubbed Spanish track, you may not see this there. But why should we provide something where this is no market? And for whom? It is clear that you speak and understand English .
post #3303 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAlien View Post

On behalf of the masses, THANKS AMIRM!!!

Obviously alot of us were disappointed/mad after hearing your info, and some become less than polite and demanding. Yet, you continue to answer questions, mad respect for you and thanks on behalf of everyone (We know its not YOUR fault) regardless of the tone of our posts. Keep up the good work, and may the gaming gods be with you.

Thanks much. It is sometimes hard to read the sentiments of the majority who don't post. So appreciate the feedback.
post #3304 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by BozQ View Post

Dear Amir

Sorry for being a nudge here. But did you miss this question or are you unable to respond for some reason?

If you don't have the answer or not allowed to, I'm completely fine with it.

No reason other than hitting my limit of how many questions I ask the Xbox guys over the weekend . They tell me they have added other resolution settings. So maybe one of them is what you are interested in.
post #3305 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make Ian. The video part is not a fixed number. One can fine tune it more and squeeze it down as needed. Remember that the quality curve for VC-1 is highly exponential and approaches a very horizontal asymptote quickly. So looking at the file size for video doesn’t tell you anything about what else you could put in there.

Put another way, when the bit budget is allocated for the various parts of the title, the data rate for video is dialed in and then encoding begins. Any trouble spots are then optimized. Given this process, you can’t say that the file size had to be the number that was picked. A smaller number could be picked with potentially more hand tuning needed without degradation to the movie.

As to LOTR, you can’t draw direct conclusions by looking at KK. The movies are different. They are encoded by different shops and amount of labor going into them is different. I can’t give you any details about LOTR but having read the closed thread started by beatboy, I can tell you that whoever is feeding him data, is feeding him more incorrect information than correct. There is a much more correct post later in that thread . And even that may turn out to be incorrect given the fact that the project is ongoing. The other thing I will hint at is that NL is really quality focused. They absolutely care about audio/video performance on this series.

Is LOTR going to be easy to encode? No. It is going to take work. As Ben pointed out though, we have shown that we can handle long length titles in HD DVD-30 with superb quality so we are no stranger to this work. Other than noting this fact, back of the envelop math on data size of other titles, etc. is going to make for long threads but provide you with little real data. If all movies behaved the same, we would have the same data rate for all of them but we don’t. Unless you are compressionist and have a ton of experience with VC-1 and have access to the master, you cannot make a-priory judgment about the quality of some title at certain data rate. After all, prior to launch of HD DVD, everyone thought the only way to get good picture was to use BD and we know clearly now that is not the case. And it has been the other guy on the defensive, having to show that they can produce good quality with their format.

Your other commentary regarding dubbed tracks is also problematic in my opinion. The consensus here and elsewhere has always been that it is the original track that has the highest fidelity and should be preserved as well as possible. Beyond that, a dubbed track simply does not need same level of quality because the mater isn’t of the same quality. This is not to say that it is less enjoyable by people listening to it. I guarantee you that the people who listened to dubbed track on that title are not complaining about the quality or I would be hearing from about it, and you would be posting a reference to it. But we have seen none. The dubbed tracks simply are not for the enthusiasts – in the original or compressed form. But to average person, they still sound great.

But let’s say you are right and there are people marching in streets, complaining about the dubbed tracks in KK. In that case, my answer is let’s use the interactivity features of HD DVD and download those tracks to persistent storage. We have mandatory networking in HD DVD so we can always rely on that. And menus in HDi dynamically update after the download, letting the user select the other tracks as if they were always there.

As I responded to Darin last week, this whole notion that everything must fit on disc or else, is an antiquated concept. With DVD, we didn’t have the internet. We do now. And we have a format in the form of HD DVD that fully provides this capability. As we have shown, HD DVD studios are pretty aggressive about using these capabilities. So while one may doubt the will of the other format to adopt anything but a straight disc format, you are not going to see us be shy here. Of course, if there is no market for a lossless dubbed Spanish track, you may not see this there. But why should we provide something where this is no market? And for whom? It is clear that you speak and understand English .

Amir -

Instead of downloading, is their any provision for preloading another audio track from a second disc? It seems that even a 1 mbps second language audio track could be loaded at over 30x real time. Thus for a 3 hour (180 minute) movie you could have many extra language tracks all on a 2nd (DVD-9?) disc if needed. And any selected track could be pre-loaded from that disc in about 5-6 minutes, even for folks with slow Internet connections. Heck, if the concern was max bandwidth instead of disc capacity that preloading could even be done from the first disc if the extra audio files were not muxed in but packed separately at the back.

- Tom
post #3306 of 4841
amirm, I know you can't comment on products in development, but would it be possible for you to comment on the ability of the Elite to support lossless audio in the future (either through a software update, or perhaps a new Elite version of the HDDVD add-on)?

If it is not physically possible at any point in the future, due to hardware constraints inside the Elite, I would like to know. In that case, I will buy a stand alone HDDVD player.

Also, could you please clear up a question related to the Spring audio update. Is the Spring update for audio only for HDDVD movies, or will it also upgrade the sound for games? Specifically, what audio can we get for each. Do we get DTS 1.5M for both? But it isn't 5.1? I assume thats the best the Elite will be able to put out?

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions in this forum. It means a lot to us...
post #3307 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

Amir -

Instead of downloading, is their any provision for preloading another audio track from a second disc? It seems that even a 1 mbps second language audio track could be loaded at over 30x real time. Thus for a 3 hour (180 minute) movie you could have many extra language tracks all on a 2nd (DVD-9?) disc if needed. And any selected track could be pre-loaded from that disc in about 5-6 minutes, even for folks with slow Internet connections. Heck, if the concern was max bandwidth instead of disc capacity that preloading could even be done from the first disc if the extra audio files were not muxed in but packed separately at the back.

- Tom

Hey, that would work too! Great suggestion...
post #3308 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBS G35 View Post

That's weird...According to the poll below, 77% of the voters in the HD-DVD forum are not getting the Elite because it does not output uncompressed/lossless audio. I know poll's are not 100% accurate, but c'mon, 99% huh..

You did a poll on how many people asked me about HDMI? I am getting older but I don't think I need a poll to remind me what questions people have asked me .

Regardless, I appreciate your passion. I really do. I just wish you would wait a few weeks to try out the software update and see what people think after that.
post #3309 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by lffisher View Post

amirm, I know you can't comment on products in development, but would it be possible for you to comment on the ability of the Elite to support lossless audio in the future (either through a software update, or perhaps a new Elite version of the HDDVD add-on)?

If it is not physically possible at any point in the future, due to hardware constraints inside the Elite, I would like to know. In that case, I will buy a stand alone HDDVD player.

Also, could you please clear up a question related to the Spring audio update. Is the Spring update for audio only for HDDVD movies, or will it also upgrade the sound for games? Specifically, what audio can we get for each. Do we get DTS 1.5M for both? But it isn't 5.1? I assume thats the best the Elite will be able to put out?

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions in this forum. It means a lot to us...

Keeping in mind that I didn't design the Xbox 360 hardware or manage its development, I don't think it is wise to wait for PCM update when you can pick up a cheaper HD DVD player which has it now.

On spring update, it is only for HD DVD. Changing the encoder for games would modify the performance profile of the machine (due to different load of various encoders) which is not something we wanted to do as that may impact gaming performance. Of course, it is possible in the future to add this functionality after more testing and possibly more optizimations. But for now, there is no plan around it.

So here are the specs:

Gaming: current Dolby Digital 5.1 encoder. No change.

For HD DVD:
Stereo uncompressed PCM
Current Dolby Digital (5.1)
DTS at 1.5 Mbit/sec (5.1)
WMA-Pro at 1.5 mbit/sec (5.1)

There is a new dashboard UI that lets you select the above choices and turn the dynamic range compression on/off (currently it is stuck in ON position).
post #3310 of 4841
Hello Amirm, you've given us all some fantastic information and just by reading this thread it made me want to sign up for the forums here. Wow! A topic thats 111 pages long that isn't a massive burning wreck? This must be a nice place!

Anyway, I know you've kinda already gone into this sorta....but if you could somehow confirm 1680x1050 VGA support I will be the first in line to donate my kidney to you when one of them bursts from the frustration of being asked the same questions over and over again I understand it's the weekend so it might be impossible for you to find out....but hey, worth a shot I guess...maybe?
post #3311 of 4841
Back to the importing thing - do the US toshibas work in 50Hz mode? If not then that would be a problem when importing one since you wouldn't be able to play back titles released in that format for current PAL countries (europe/australia).
post #3312 of 4841
Hey Amir,

I've been reading this forum for a long time and I've found your feedback to be very helpful and insightful...now it's time for my first post. I don't know if this is out of your scope, but I hope you can help. I have a panasonic 50" plasma and I really like the music streaming feature of the 360. The problem is that the current visualizer has a .5" letter box band at the top and bottom, so I'm concerned about burn in. Do you know if there's anything I can do to fix this or if the team is considering adding a feature to stretch the visualizer (like you can do with arcade games)? Also, do you know if they're going to be offering any new visualizers - I tried out Apple TV and really liked the photo screen saver effect (different from a standard slideshow); I returned the ATV though cause the 360 did everything except read the DRM'ed
music...which isn't much of a problem anymore thanks to some helpful tools

One more question...are there any plans to include native support for streaming non-DRMed AAC (.m4a)? It plays off an iPod but not streamed over the network. I just installed TVersity (which transcodes to other formats to wma on the fly) and that's doing the job for now (including supporting playlists), but it's hogging the CPU on my PC (and annoying my wife). I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Prev
post #3313 of 4841
ONCE AGAIN HERE IS THE RULES FOR THIS THRED. PLEASE FOLLOW MANY POST DELETED.


Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such in their sig : subject to AVS approval
Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions [only questions please] for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing

AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Remember: Questions only: no off topic posts: they may be removed: and only Insiders [who have been recognized by AVS moderators] may answer

Insiders: please PM Ken H and myself with your credentials: mods and only mods will make the determination of who qualifys as an insider and all such discussions will be done off line: not to be discussed here

This is a continuation of the original thread Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please which did not end well: any more of this and we will take strong action: Insiders are to be treated with respect:

Please help us make this a flagship thread on AVS by observing these rules
post #3314 of 4841
I'm just going to start giving out suspensions to those who can't follow the very simple rules of this topic.
post #3315 of 4841
Amir:

I understand the lossy vs. lossless codec arguement, but doesn't the 1.2 HDMI profile allow for some pretty high bit-rate codecs that you could add to the HD DVD playback software down the road?

For example, DTS-HD, according to this chart (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5577/untitledjr5.jpg), can output up to 6mbps over HDMI 1.2. I would think that would be more than enough to put up against a lossless stream. Any thoughts on moving in that direction as time goes on?
post #3316 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

Amir:

I understand the lossy vs. lossless codec arguement, but doesn't the 1.2 HDMI profile allow for some pretty high bit-rate codecs that you could add to the HD DVD playback software down the road?

For example, DTS-HD, according to this chart (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5577/untitledjr5.jpg), can output up to 6mbps over HDMI 1.2. I would think that would be more than enough to put up against a lossless stream. Any thoughts on moving in that direction as time goes on?

I guess that is a possibility. But until there are DTS-HD decoders out there that can go above 1.5 mbit/sec, it doesn't make sense to support it (nor would we have a way to test it).
post #3317 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by uscboy View Post

This update to VGA output... will it help with TVs that don't offer many picture adjustments
via the VGA input? My set doesn't offer sharpness for one... but the picture over VGA
always looks a little softer and more washed out it seems... does the update fix that or is
that still dependant on the television's input?

I'm wondering this myself, Amir. Thanks for listening.
post #3318 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by uscboy View Post

This update to VGA output... will it help with TVs that don't offer many picture adjustments
via the VGA input? My set doesn't offer sharpness for one... but the picture over VGA
always looks a little softer and more washed out it seems... does the update fix that or is
that still dependant on the television's input?

Unfortunately, there are no "proc amp" controls of this sort that I know of. Best to see if your TV supports seperate memories for different inputs and dial in the appropriate amount there.
post #3319 of 4841
Will the Xbox 360 Elite be capable of 1:1 pixel mapping with the HDMI output?
post #3320 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Will the Xbox 360 Elite be capable of 1:1 pixel mapping with the HDMI output?

Say what? 1:1 pixel mapping is an issue with the receiver, not transmitter. If your display can do it, then it works with any source, 360 or otherwise.

People should always look for this feature when they buy a new display. It is called "native" mode, or "direct" mode or some such thing. If you don't see it in the menu, skip the unit and keep looking for one that does.

Without 1:1, the display will attempt to enlarge the image by 5-10%, causing the image to become softer in addition to losing picture detail on each side.
post #3321 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

Hmmm, thanks for the quick answer. Let me get one follow up in then, because I'm just trying to wrap my head around the PCM issue as well. It was my understanding, and I could be off goodness knows, that you could pass an uncompressed stream through the 1.2 profile without limiting it to a 2.0 track. If the Xbox 360 could simply decode an LPCM or re-encode say a True-HD track to uncompressed LPCM that you could send it out to a receiver that way?

Let me qualify this. I'm right now limited to optical because of my HT setup. But there is a possibility of a new receiver this year. At this point I'd get something with HDMI onboard. That would open me up to a 360 upgrade as well.

Feel free to correct whatever I am missing in this. And thanks again!

The answer is a few pages back . Yes, HDMI 1.2 allows uncompressed PCM. But the 360 data path to that bridge is not wide enough to support it.

HDMI will work with your new receiver by the way. You will be able to select DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec which should sound pretty good although no better than optical out.
post #3322 of 4841
Just to clarify, I think the people asking about 1:1 mapping are wondering whether the 360 will support resolutions and framerates other than ATSC using the HDMI output. Will 1366x768 be a possible resolution using it for instance?
post #3323 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frode View Post

Just to clarify, I think the people asking about 1:1 mapping are wondering whether the 360 will support resolutions and framerates other than ATSC using the HDMI output. Will 1366x768 be a possible resolution using it for instance?

There are no new updates here. So whatever is there in the fall update that allowed 1080p, is what is supported. This is list is not supposed to be comprehensive but is what I found for "DVI/IT" class displays:

640x480
848x480
1280x720
1024x768
1280x768
1360x768
1280x1024
1920x1080

For devices which identify themselves as "DVI/CE", just the standard ATSC rates are supported (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p). What classifies as IT/CE is a bit complicated but we query the display to see which class it thinks it is and then double check its resolution EDID against the above list to determine for sure.

Folks create the mess above and then come and complain about having two optical formats .
post #3324 of 4841
Hi, does the Elite 360 have new software for video playback? Just wondering if this was changed or not with the new digital output and scaler.
post #3325 of 4841
Quote:


benwaggoner wrote:

No, since neither lossless codec is mandatory or de-factor standard in BD players.

So even if a lossless track is included, lossy tracks must also be included.

For example, many BD discs include an AC-3 @ 640 and a PCM track, while a HD DVD version of that same title could include a 1.5 Mbps DD+ track for an equivalent or superior experience at less than 25% of the bitrate.

Actually, don't BD players all decode a "core" legacy stream out of both Dolby Digital TrueHD and DTS-HD MA signals? In the case of Dolby Digital TrueHD the "core" (not provided on HD DVD) is a separate stream from the MLP-based TrueHD encode so yes, technically this could be argued to be less efficient than a Dolby TrueHD stream on HD DVD which relies on trascoding to DTS in current players for those without HDMI output (since no core DD stream is provided). But DTS-HD also provides a legacy "core" output for all listeners from BD playback... so I fail to see how a separate lossy track needs to be included?

On BD simply providing a Lossless Dolby TrueHD stream (bundled with its core stream) or DTS-HD stream provides exceptional sound to all listeners from all BD players (even if not fully decoded to lossless). Could you please explain why your comments seem to ignore this fact?

To the my ears and those of my audiophile friends, DTS at 1.5 mbps sounds better than DD+ at 1.5, so again I fail to see, given that BD can provide exceptional sound at a 1.5 mbps rate using DTS, how is it a less-efficient format than HD DVD utilizing DD+ at 1.5 mbps?

Or are your generally stated comments about the efficiency of HD DVD/BD limited to the specific context of Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD?
post #3326 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Say what? 1:1 pixel mapping is an issue with the receiver, not transmitter.

Not all video sources are really capable of 1:1 pixel mapping since some actually crop pixels on the sides of the images. To rephrase my question will the Xbox 360 be capable of 1:1 pixel mapping without cropping any pixels?
post #3327 of 4841
Hi Amir
If I was to say "not this week but next week?"
Could you say yes or no...... because I could mean anything.....
post #3328 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Actually, don't BD players all decode a "core" legacy stream out of both Dolby Digital TrueHD and DTS-HD MA signals?

Can't tell who you are quoting . But Dolby THD does not have a concept of a "core." It is just an MLP codec like it is in HD DVD. The difference is that in BD, they mandate a standard dolby digital track to go with it. In HD DVD we do not, and as such, we get to choose to have DTS, DD+, etc.

DTS-HD-MA is a true core+extension codec and acts the same in both formats.


Quote:


In the case of Dolby Digital TrueHD the "core" (not provided on HD DVD) is a separate stream from the MLP-based TrueHD encode so yes, technically this could be argued to be less efficient than a Dolby TrueHD stream on HD DVD which relies on trascoding to DTS in current players for those without HDMI output (since no core DD stream is provided). But DTS-HD also provides a legacy "core" output for all listeners from BD playback... so I fail to see how a separate lossy track needs to be included?

I am not quite following your argument . But since there is no mandatory "core" in HD DVD's use of TrueHD, and all players decode TrueHD, one could leave out the backward compatible codec and save space that way.

Quote:


To the my ears and those of my audiophile friends, DTS at 1.5 mbps sounds better than DD+ at 1.5, so again I fail to see, given that BD can provide exceptional sound at a 1.5 mbps rate using DTS, how is it a less-efficient format than HD DVD utilizing DD+ at 1.5 mbps?

You mean to your ear 1.5 mbit/sec DTS sounds "exceptional" but DD+ at 1.5 mbit/sec does not? And regardless, if that is exceptional, then I assume you are not a fan of lossless audio? If so, what verb would you use to describe that experience?
post #3329 of 4841
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Of course, the additional bandwidth and datacapacity of BD more-than-offset the gain in "efficiency" of Dolby TrueHD on HD DVD (ie, even with the added 640 "core", BD ends up with more bits to spare).

Only if all of your BD discs are BD-50. That is not the case today.

Quote:


Amir,

Re-read my post. I know that The "core" 640 dolby track of "Dolby TrueHD" on BD is an additional stream not intrinsic to the MLP base encode. I mention that. My point was that benwaggoner was suggesting that one needed to provide additional lossy tracks on BD since advanced audio decoding wasn't required... which seems a strange play on words given that the lossy 640 "core" *is* a requirement on BD for Dolby TrueHD streams.

Boy, I don't understand what you are getting at . So let me ask you this. Which system you like better? One that forces you to always use an older companion codec with your lossless one or one that lets you choose? And which system is better, the one that mandates lossless decode or the one that doesn't?

Quote:


Yes, the Lossy DTS streams behave the same way.

They do? How? DTS uses a smart encoding of the two layers and acts very differently than DD+THD.

Quote:


Naturally lossless is preferred above all else. My point about the sound of 1.5 mbps DTS was in comparison to 1.5 mbps DD+. If any disc producer considered a 1.5 mbps DD+ stream acceptable for his disc, then I fail to see why HD DVD offers an advantage with that Dolby datarate given that equal-or-better sound quality can be obtained with DTS running at the same rate...

DD+ is not limited to 1.5 mbit/sec. It can go higher if needed. As such, it can outperform the standard DTS decoder in BD format if one goes by bitrate alone. The fact that both DTS and DD+ are standard in HD DVD most definitely gives it an advantage.

Quote:


Now if disc producers would stop applying dialog normalization to their Dolby Digital encodes (lossless or otherwise)... perhaps my preference for DTS would change...


Oh, you mean your preference was due to level normalization and not the supriority of DTS algorithm? Wish you had said that before. So if normalization is taken away from TrueHD/DD+, you now agree that HD DVD is better off since both of those layers are mandatory there and not in BD? Assume you know that nothing in HD DVD mandates DD/DD+/DTHD encode to work one way or the other.

Really, I don't understand how you consider BD just as good. HD DVD mandates two more codecs than BD. That ought to provide more flexibility than not. No BD disc can have a single lossless codec and expect it to play everywhere. Whereas in HD DVD, we clearly can do that. That is efficiency. Not big efficiency. But good enough for an Internet argument .
post #3330 of 4841
I'm a bit confused here.
Dialog normalisation, isn't that only a metadata value, that you apply (together with compression profile), in the encoder, but is only altering the sound, IF you enable it in the interface of the decoder?
So simply a post decode compressor, that you can set the threshold of in the encoder.

So there is no difference in the encode between it set to -31db (off) and any other value, just the metadata will change?

And if the user disables "Nightmode" in the decoder, it will sound exactly the same as the normalization set to -31db?
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