AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HDTV Software Media Discussion › Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3] - Page 130  

post #3871 of 4841
4/14/07 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

I am not trying to be inflammatory, but I was wondering what MS thinks about the patent decision that was recently made by the MPEG-LA awarding just two out of the 125 patents used in VC-1 to Microsoft?

I will understand if the answer is no comment.

Actually, it is a good question. I think it is important to note how the process works here. The patent pool administered by MPEG-LA only includes issued patents. And it is up to each company to provide their patents to be evaluated against the standard as otherwise, they won't be included in the list, even if they read on the spec. So this is not the case of us showing them 100 patents, and them "awarding" two of them.

Microsoft currently has many patents for VC-1 technology under application status, as it takes five years or more for patents to be granted. Therefore, we expect Microsoft's patent position with respect to VC-1 to increase significantly over the next few years. More important than the sheer number of patents, however, is the level of innovation reflected in those patents. Many of the patents in the current list refer to older codec algorithms, whereas Microsoft's patents and pending patent applications reflect the core innovations in the codec.

The same is true of other pools btw. Some 150 companies contributed to AVC for example but I believe only 25 are represented in MPEG-LA pool today. As the new entrants have their patents granted and they choose to participate in AVC pool, the list will grow and percentage of patents from each company will change.

AVS Top Picks

post #3872 of 4841
4/14/07 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Actually, it is a good question. I think it is important to note how the process works here. The patent pool administered by MPEG-LA only includes issued patents. And it is up to each company to provide their patents to be evaluated against the standard as otherwise, they won't be included in the list, even if they read on the spec. So this is not the case of us showing them 100 patents, and them "awarding" two of them.

Microsoft currently has many patents for VC-1 technology under application status, as it takes five years or more for patents to be granted. Therefore, we expect Microsoft's patent position with respect to VC-1 to increase significantly over the next few years. More important than the sheer number of patents, however, is the level of innovation reflected in those patents. Many of the patents in the current list refer to older codec algorithms, whereas Microsoft's patents and pending patent applications reflect the core innovations in the codec.

The same is true of other pools btw. Some 150 companies contributed to AVC for example but I believe only 25 are represented in MPEG-LA pool today. As the new entrants have their patents granted and they choose to participate in AVC pool, the list will grow and percentage of patents from each company will change.

Thank you for your reply, I just don't want to see Microsoft giving up as VC-1 has the potential to be great.

So there is still a lot of IP left to be considered and MS should have a bigger holding in the next lot, will this be done by the MPEG-LA or by a different arbitrator?
post #3873 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:02am
Insiders from both camps -

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.

Is it possible on HD DVD (even though the second stream would be SD?) Is it possible on BD (assuming you have a profile 1.1 compliant player and software?)
post #3874 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

Thank you for your reply, I just don't want to see Microsoft giving up as VC-1 has the potential to be great.

Thanks .

Quote:
So there is still a lot of IP left to be considered and MS should have a bigger holding in the next lot, will this be done by the MPEG-LA or by a different arbitrator?

Yes, we will be submitting our patents as they are granted to MPEG-LA. We and other companies in the pool worked very hard to establish the terms and the program there. So we wouldn't want to go and shop for another system.
post #3875 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:09am
I have recently been reading and hearing more and more about Mediapile. I was wondering if any insider could comment on their thoughts concerning Mediapile, especially if they see it as future possible competition.
post #3876 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Digital output must have some for of copy protection. Is this what you are asking?


Only partially. If the ICT flags are not set why can't you just use VGA/RGB output on a normal non-HDMI video card? Is that specifically an AACS requirement for PC playback?

My apologies if that was answered years ago and I just forgot, but it came to mind again after your comment on the uncertainty of the effect of possible PC playback.

- Tom
post #3877 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:18am
amirm,

Not sure if you seen this or not. But still wanted to know if you have any kind of update on this situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

Any update on 1440x900 VGA resolution being added? If it is being added and doesnt make the spring release. Will we maybe see it in the fall update?
post #3878 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

Only partially. If the ICT flags are not set why can't you just use VGA/RGB output on a normal non-HDMI video card? Is that specifically an AACS requirement for PC playback?

My apologies if that was answered years ago and I just forgot, but it came to mind again after your comment on the uncertainty of the effect of possible PC playback.

- Tom

This was asked a while ago and when I researched, I could not get an answer to it either. I personally don't know a reason why they would enforce such a rule.
post #3879 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRn View Post

amirm,

Not sure if you seen this or not. But still wanted to know if you have any kind of update on this situation?

I don't think it will show up in the upcoming release. But I will keep pushing to see if we can get it implemented in the future.
post #3880 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:30am
Bummer. Thanks for the push!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I don't think it will show up in the upcoming release. But I will keep pushing to see if we can get it implemented in the future.
post #3881 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Insiders from both camps -

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.

Is it possible on HD DVD (even though the second stream would be SD?) Is it possible on BD (assuming you have a profile 1.1 compliant player and software?)

If I understand your scenario correctly, yes, this is simple to do in HD DVD. As soon as the user selects the PiP to go full screen, you switch to another encode of the PiP in full resolution. The advantage of this mechanism is that you do not need to share the bandwidth of the full-screen with the primary experience. Each can be full bandwidth because they are not playing at the same time.

HD DVD also allows zooming using HDi so you could choose the alternative full-screen encode to be at a different resolution, and have it be scaled. This would let you save space as most PiP content is not shot in highest fidelity anyway. You could also zoom it to a subset of the screen and show other stats/graphics, etc. in full screen mode. Things you could not do if you don't have a secondary scalar for the PiP picture.

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don't understand the requirement for it to be seamless. You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don't want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.
post #3882 of 4841
4/14/07 at 11:52am
Amir,

do you believe all "cheap" Chinese HD DVD players will decode lossless 5.1, like the Toshibas, once they hit the market?
post #3883 of 4841
4/14/07 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don't understand the requirement for it to be seamless. You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don't want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.

Thank you for the quick response. To clarify, I meant "seamless" in that you wouldn't have to start the movie over - it would just swap the IME content from the little window to the big window (with the movie now occupying the little window.) A little pause or "flash" is no big deal, imo.
post #3884 of 4841
4/14/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Thank you for the quick response. To clarify, I meant "seamless" in that you wouldn't have to start the movie over - it would just swap the IME content from the little window to the big window (with the movie now occupying the little window.) A little pause or "flash" is no big deal, imo.

Oh, then that is really easy . We can under HDi control jump into any part of a clip (think bookmarks). So all one does is keep track of where we are in PiP and when the switch comes, we play the alternate full screen one with that as the seek position.
post #3885 of 4841
4/14/07 at 2:14pm
dear amirm,

great work on the hd dvd player , the new upcoming update for it and the elite, my question is will the elite automatcally choose the reesolution for me over hdmi or will i be able to set it myself?
post #3886 of 4841
4/14/07 at 4:22pm
Should a 2.40 aspect ratio Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc be allowed to be advertised as "1080p"?

Does the 1080 mean 1080 lines of resolution or instead only 801 lines of actual resolution 1080*(1.78/2.4) with 279 lines of wasted filler?
post #3887 of 4841
4/14/07 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashoveridema0 View Post

dear amirm,

great work on the hd dvd player , the new upcoming update for it and the elite, my question is will the elite automatcally choose the reesolution for me over hdmi or will i be able to set it myself?

It will attempt to query the display and use what it tells it. However, you have the option of refusing that information and forcing it to use other timings if the display implementation (or the response it gives 360) is incorrect.

So yes, it is automatic with the user having the option to override if that doesn't work right.
post #3888 of 4841
4/14/07 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Should a 2.40 aspect ratio Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc be allowed to be advertised as "1080p"?

Does the 1080 mean 1080 lines of resolution or instead only 801 lines of actual resolution 1080*(1.78/2.4) with 279 lines of wasted filler?

Yes . 1080p or whatever talks about the signal being output, not how much information it has in it, or even how well it supports that level of resolution. This is very common in the industry. How many times have you seen "24-bit/96Khz DAC" for audio when in reality none of these devices can output such a resolution. And when the play something like the CD, the source is obviously 16-bits, not 24-bits.
post #3889 of 4841
4/14/07 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilsp View Post

Amir,

do you believe all "cheap" Chinese HD DVD players will decode lossless 5.1, like the Toshibas, once they hit the market?

I can't speak for them. What I can say is that we are providing them a platform which can support it. And if Paid is right and it doesn't cost them anything, they should do as we have and support 5.1.
post #3890 of 4841
4/14/07 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If I understand your scenario correctly, yes, this is simple to do in HD DVD. As soon as the user selects the PiP to go full screen, you switch to another encode of the PiP in full resolution. The advantage of this mechanism is that you do not need to share the bandwidth of the full-screen with the primary experience. Each can be full bandwidth because they are not playing at the same time.

HD DVD also allows zooming using HDi so you could choose the alternative full-screen encode to be at a different resolution, and have it be scaled. This would let you save space as most PiP content is not shot in highest fidelity anyway. You could also zoom it to a subset of the screen and show other stats/graphics, etc. in full screen mode. Things you could not do if you don't have a secondary scalar for the PiP picture.

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don't understand the requirement for it to be seamless. You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don't want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.

Amir;

I be confused.

Does this SWAP feature currently exist? I have the HD-A1 firmware 2.0 and I haven't found a button for it. Have I missed it?.

To put a finer point on this, and with specific reagrd to CHILDREN OF MEN;
does all of this PIP ishness have any negative effect on the resolution of the
main window in full screen?

I be suspicious that it could. cuz over the years I've professionally had WAY too many bad experiences with DVE processing adding nasty noise and artifacts to my video signal [ not so much of late thought. ]

I look forward to being wrong. How's THAT for a thread first ???


-30-
post #3891 of 4841
4/14/07 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincelluloid View Post

Amir;

I be confused.

Does this SWAP feature currently exist? I have the HD-A1 firmware 2.0 and I haven't found a button for it. Have I missed it?.

There are four programmable buttons (A-D) which can be used by HDi application running on disc to do this. Other buttons could also be used but that might confuse the user.

Quote:


To put a finer point on this, and with specific reagrd to CHILDREN OF MEN; does all of this PIP ishness have any negative effect on the resolution of the main window in full screen? I be suspicious that it could. cuz over the years I've professionally had WAY too many bad experiences with DVE processing adding nasty noise and artifacts to my video signal not so much of late thought.

Wow, someone who knows what a DVE is! Good to run into fellow video professionals around here. (For the benefit of others, DVE is a Digital Video Effects machine used to create picture in picture, 3-D effects and other fancy processing in real-time which you see on TV everyday).

Yes, there is video mixing going on. But no DVE action in the current PiP implementation as the current PiP is in SD so no resizing needs to occur. So if you will, there are more "switcher" issues to pop up here, than DVE. I don't know what Toshiba uses but in Xbox 360 we take extreme care to keep everything in proper YUV domain as to not disturb the original image. Others may map things to RGB, do the mixing there, and then back out to YUV if that is the output format.

HDi does allow the main video to be resized and there you are dealing with a DVE type of effect. First gen Toshiba players did not do well here and if you watch Miami Vice with interactivity on, you see fair amount of aliasing in the video. But with second gen, they do a great job here.
post #3892 of 4841
4/14/07 at 5:38pm
Dear amirm,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH AMIRM FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION , so esentialy aapril 29th when i get and plug in my elite it will automatically choose it for but i can also select the resolution myself, right?
post #3893 of 4841
4/14/07 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, that was a personal offer. I would have paid for it out of my own pocket. We do not make such performance guarantees. Nor does any other company that I am aware of in this space.

Amir,

I was afraid you were going to say that For the record Amir, outside of the AQ issues, the add-on has a great picture. The add-on (via a VGA cable) looks equally as good as my standalone Blu-Ray player (HDMI) on my 56" Samsung DLP.

Once you guys address the audio bugs, the add-on will be well worth the puchase price, and will tide me over for the next 12 months or so depending on what happens with this crazy format war. And I really appreciate your contributions to this board. Although it is frustrating waiting for a fix, I do honestly believe that you are doing everything in your power to get these issues addressed.

BTW, I would be more than happy to beta test any audio patches for the add-on should you need a few volunteers

Keep it up..

-Tim
post #3894 of 4841
4/15/07 at 1:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efralope View Post

Any insiders care to comment on Samsung's new dual-format player?

As I've mentioned before, at this point I think consumers are poorly-served by anything which extends the format war. With the vast majority of the CE and studio communities supporting Blu-ray, better specs in virtually every category, and already having effectively ended the format war in Japan and Australia, the release of dual-format players only increases the chances of a)neither HD format succeeding, or b)consumers being saddled forever players with largely redundant support for two formats, resulting in higher costs (hardware and patent burdens), increased complexity, poorer performance (due to compromises required to support two formats), and less innovation (due to development time focusing on integrating the formats and fixing twice the bugs rather than innovating in other areas).
Quote:


First Dreamworks as a major studio announces dual-format support, and now Samsung as a major CE company.

As a subsidiary of Paramount, Dreamworks was largely expected to fall into the neutral category.

- Talk
post #3895 of 4841
4/15/07 at 1:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Even more puzzling is why PS3 is behind in implementing it [secondary video]. Since it has the lion share of BD players, you would think if it had full support, some studios would target it. So either the PS3 lacks the functionality, or having partial support in the installed base is not good enough for the studios.

Or any number of other possibilities you fail to mention here, such as waiting to ensure they can adequately test the support against content from multiple studios, higher-priority features in the PS3 firmware update pipeline, or a strategic decision not to release secondary video support until it's also supported by at least one standalone player, to name only three hypothetical possibilities.
post #3896 of 4841
4/15/07 at 1:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

BD companies have a serious problem called PS3. They simply cannot market products that do the same thing as PS3 but cost the same or more.

This argument ignores the fact that there is little cost difference to manufacture an HD DVD player vs a Blu-ray player. Therefore, either Toshiba is taking a loss on each HD-A2 (a strategy they can't pursue forever), or Blu-ray vendors can drop prices to similar levels when such a move is justified.
post #3897 of 4841
4/15/07 at 2:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.

Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.

- Talk
post #3898 of 4841
4/15/07 at 8:14am
I'm surprised this hasn't received more attention (only one poster even responded).

Regarding WB's lack of lossless Dolby TrueHD on BD where corresponding HD DVD titles offer it, Paidgeek said:

Quote:


According to WB, the titles that were released on both formats that provided DD THD on HD-DVD but not BD were the result of a problem with authoring DD THD discovered at a point in time to close to a critical ship date to hold back. The problem with the authoring tool was quickly corrected, so this situation should not come up again.

Paidgeek,

that seems strange given the long duration (months) of the disparity seen between lossless on HD DVD but not BD. Superman and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory were released months ago, and Happy feet just recently. In all that time WB couldn't figure out how to author a BD with Dolby TrueHD?

Also, WB has even announced *TotalHD* discs which have yet to be released... again with specs that provide lossless Dolby TrueHD for the HD DVD side but *not* for the BD side.

If WB really was willing/wanting to provide parity with audio for both formats, why would they still be announcing *future* releases where the lossless audio for BD is omitted in the released specs?

If you have a source you're able to contact at Warner, could you ask these questions?
post #3899 of 4841
4/15/07 at 8:17am
Quote:


Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.

BTW, any thoughts about using the dual-video streams for 3-D encoding? All you'd need is a player with firmware to either matrix the two 1080p24 streams into a sterescopic 1080p48 stream for shutter-glasses or have a player with dual HDMI output for dual projection with polorized glasses.
post #3900 of 4841
4/15/07 at 8:19am
Tom in the projector forum posted that JVC will show 3D using polarized lenses on two RS1s and 2 video streams. Keith pointed out in the discussion thread that more theatres and movies are going with 3D capabilities. So following on the PiP swap question.

Can HD DVD/BD formats support the secondary stream be used for that and if so are there any manufacturers thinking about releasing a player that will support this.

(just in case it is not clear, what I was thinking of is a player (with the disk encoded for this purpose) with dual output, one stream is the left pic, the other the right pic, the player sends one stream to one (Left) projector and the second to a second one (Right) and we see 3D using polarized glasses) So instead of PiP (small box on screen) we get two full screen images.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HDTV Software Media Discussion
This thread is locked  

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HDTV Software Media Discussion › Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3]