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List DVD Recorders with Component Input - Page 2

post #31 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

Isn't old 16x9 content stored in the same size frame -- with black bars? And, I was thinking an anamorphic 16x9 was streched so that the flag would bring back the proportions. And, it may have used ALL of the height of the frame -- but I forgot.


Anamorphic uses the whole 4x3 frame to store a 16x9 picture, and must be stretched to the proper aspect ratio. A letter boxed 16x9 picture in a 4x3 frame does not need to be stretched. The anamorphic picture is sharper because it uses the entire frame to carry the picture info, and doesn't waste any pixels on black bars.
post #32 of 144
Let's say we have a commercial DVD, anamorphic, 16:9. The picture is recorded on the disc without any black letterbox bars. Is this correct? When displayed on a 16:9 TV, the picture fills the screen completely. When played on a 4:3 TV, then the DVD player adds the black letterbox bars to the picture signal. IOW, the black bars are NOT part of the signal on the DVD. Correct?

Just to re-word that. If I understand correctly, the 16:9 Flag tells the DVD player to add the black letterbox bars if going to be displayed on a 4:3. The flag does does not change the picture data on the disc. It just tells the DVD player to add the bars. Is that correct?

Let's say we want to record a 16:9 HD program (via component inputs) and watch it on a 16:9 TV. By default it will record & play properly? No need to worry about a flag?
post #33 of 144
Yes, it is recorded on the disc without black bars. Flags make no difference, if you are playing back on a WS HDTV. The rest, I am not certain about, but I think you are right, except the flag tells the 4x3 TV how to display it, I think... I'm sure someone else will fill in my gaps...
post #34 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Let's say we have a commercial DVD, anamorphic, 16:9. The picture is recorded on the disc without any black letterbox bars. Is this correct? When displayed on a 16:9 TV, the picture fills the screen completely. When played on a 4:3 TV, then the DVD player adds the black letterbox bars to the picture signal. IOW, the black bars are NOT part of the signal on the DVD. Correct?

Just to re-word that. If I understand correctly, the 16:9 Flag tells the DVD player to add the black letterbox bars if going to be displayed on a 4:3. The flag does does not change the picture data on the disc. It just tells the DVD player to add the bars. Is that correct?

Let's say we want to record a 16:9 HD program (via component inputs) and watch it on a 16:9 TV. By default it will record & play properly? No need to worry about a flag?

All correct.

You just might have to switch the display into 16:9 mode manually for that last question.
post #35 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

Isn't old 16x9 content stored in the same size frame -- with black bars? And, I was thinking an anamorphic 16x9 was streched so that the flag would bring back the proportions. And, it may have used ALL of the height of the frame -- but I forgot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbawc View Post

Anamorphic uses the whole 4x3 frame to store a 16x9 picture, and must be stretched to the proper aspect ratio. A letter boxed 16x9 picture in a 4x3 frame does not need to be stretched. The anamorphic picture is sharper because it uses the entire frame to carry the picture info, and doesn't waste any pixels on black bars.

That's what I was saying! Kindof. I also wondered if the anamorphic 16x9 frame uses a bigger framesize than 4:3. At least in the vertical direction.
post #36 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

I also wondered if the anamorphic 16x9 frame uses a bigger framesize than 4:3. At least in the vertical direction.

Wonder no more. They both use the same frame size of 720x480.
post #37 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

Both 4:3 and 16:9 use the 480x720 resolution on a DVD (at most). One is just displayed 25% wider than the other.... the flag only controls whether letterboxing is added to 16:9 material when displayed on a 4:3 display, all other situations work fine as long as you can tell the display whether to display it narrow or wide (most display have an Aspect Ratio button to control this).

That's really all there is to it.

Hold on there Hoss..... my question wasn't answered. If you re-read my post, you'll see I was asking if it is possible to screw up a recording (from one DVD to another).

If a source player is set to 4:3 display and is playing 16:9 material, your statements imply the DVDR will see and record black bars onto the new disc! If true, this would downrez the original version (into non-anamorphic widescreen).

Your response was the user just has to make sure the picture is being displayed correctly (during a burn). I was merely trying to document which situations won't.

As I read it, I asked what combinations won't work. Your response was "None, if you do them right".

P.S. I get the part about any display 16:9 or 4:3 stretching the incoming signal to fit the display -- and that 16:9 is 25% wider than 4:3 screens.
post #38 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

If a source player is set to 4:3 display and is playing 16:9 material, your statements imply the DVDR will see and record black bars onto the new disc! If true, this would downrez the original version (into non-anamorphic widescreen).

All bets are off as far as I'm concerned if you are trying to record something that has black bars added. I'm just talking about when you have a good incoming signal. Yes it will be "wrong" if you record the black bars.

For the specific situation you're describing, just set the source player to thing it's outputting to a 16:9 display, problem solved.

(And slightly off-topic, it's a strange way to copy a DVD (or even part of a DVD). I just do it on a PC and get lossless copies that way.)
post #39 of 144
This is all great stuff but I don't think you'll see a difference in how letterboxing is handled by a DVD player when contemplating either component output or s-video output.

The reason a DVD recorder with component input is important (for this thread topic) is when your cable or satellite STB letterboxes 16x9 content via s-video and does not via component.

That's it. It doesn't get any simpler.

I've posted pics to demonstrate this. It is a function of the STB. S-video is letterboxed (with gray in my case). Component is not. It is full widescreen.
post #40 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

For the specific situation you're describing, just set the source player to thing it's outputting to a 16:9 display, problem solved.

That's what I do, but it's counterintuitive, since making SD recordings is typically thought of as 4:3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

(And slightly off-topic, it's a strange way to copy a DVD (or even part of a DVD). I just do it on a PC and get lossless copies that way.)

Not strange if you don't have a DVD burner! If I didn't own a laptop, I would have bought a DVD burner long ago. Mine has a DVD reader/CD writer.

Edit: Plus owning ONLY a DVD burner would make it hard to capture TV broadcasts. You'd need a PC tuner and need the PC near the cable.... A component recorder seems to be a good device for accomplishing both tasks.
post #41 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

The reason a DVD recorder with component input is important (for this thread topic) is when your cable or satellite STB letterboxes 16x9 content via s-video and does not via component.

This thread did not specify the reason for having component connections, but it's a good point.
post #42 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

That's what I do, but it's counterintuitive, since making SD recordings is typically thought of as 4:3.

SD material can be either 16:9 or 4:3. HD material is always 16:9.

External DVD Burners can be had for under $50 these days.
post #43 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

SD material can be either 16:9 or 4:3. HD material is always 16:9.

I know, but SD is still TYPICALLY 4:3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

DVD burners can be had for under $50

For a laptop with USB1.0 and a single PCI slot?
post #44 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

This thread did not specify the reason for having component connections, but it's a good point.

Sorry about that.

There was another thread that I started that was something like "Poor Man's component to s-video converter" that spoke to it more. Discussed how a DVD recorder with component inputs could be used to convert the video to s-video and then allow your favorite recorder to be used via s-video for full widescreen 16x9 recording. I think "ncaahoops" set this one up with this in mind but it is not stated.

Once again sorry about that I was confused about which thread I was in!

Continue!
post #45 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Sorry about that.

...I was confused about which thread I was in!

Continue!

Not a problem. I was thinking of covering the pros/cons of the component interface (in general) for anyone considering a component equipped recorder. (That's why people would look in here!)

As a new owner myself, I'm asking questions I could figure out myself, but may not be obvious to everyone.
post #46 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkart View Post

All correct.

You just might have to switch the display into 16:9 mode manually for that last question.


You mention "might have to switch..." Is this dependent on the particular display or not having the 16:9 flag?

When a play a commercial WS DVD, my TV automatically switches to the proper WS mode. So would you presume a homemade 16:9 without the flag would do the same?

Curious Mike
post #47 of 144
I've heard that some displays can detect that a signal is supposed to be displayed in 16:9 aspect ratio and will automatically switch to widescreen mode as a result. It seems that this automatic switching wouldn't happen if the material is not flagged as 16:9 (the player would think it's 4:3 instead). None of my HDTVs work that way though (I have three). So I just hit the button as appropriate, 4:3 or 16:9, at the start of the program.
post #48 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

Not a problem. I was thinking of covering the pros/cons of the component interface (in general) for anyone considering a component equipped recorder. (That's why people would look in here!)

As a new owner myself, I'm asking questions I could figure out myself, but may not be obvious to everyone.

I understand. But what's it got to do with component inputs? The behavior you are describing is input/output agnostic. It really has nothing to do with whether a DVD recorder has component inputs or not.

What's the con of having a component input equipped DVD recorder?

Unless I'm missing something. No big deal.
post #49 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

I understand. But what's it got to do with component inputs? The behavior you are describing is input/output agnostic. It really has nothing to do with whether a DVD recorder has component inputs or not.

What's the con of having a component input equipped DVD recorder?

Unless I'm missing something. No big deal.

I should have said pitfalls instead of cons. For example, one of my DVDs has the ability to send 4:3 as full screen (w/o black bars) or normal (w black bars). And, most -- if not all -- DVD players send 16x9 with black bars (as pointed out earlier).

In my case, I have lots of DVDs and some are getting scratched -- especially the kids. As a result, they'll only play well on my better player. (And, we have 4 others -- including a portable). But, if I can dub them to a new disc, they'll be playable around the house again. And, not require in my good projector room (player).

Just wanna make sure I don't downrez or "reformat" something in the process of a component-to-component dub. Of course, I'd figure it out if/when it happens. But, I'd have to do it over again and I hate that!

In the old days of VCR use, no thought needed to be given to recording (or even dubbing something). Connect everything up and push record.....

With my TV, I obviously have to switch my cable box to output 480i and I have to think about aspect too! I've already tried to copy the parade (16x9) twice and need to do it again. I know what went wrong the first two times (media and aspect mis-setting). Maybe someone else looking to buy a component unit will benefit from seeing this. This seems to be a thread they'd look in.

In my case, I think the following errors can occur when moving into the DVDR/component recorder world -- especially if it's your first DVD recorder.

1) Make sure you use the correct media (don't guess when in doubt)
2) Try different brands if you're still in doubt
3) Don't set a DVD to 4:3 output if you're dubbing 16x9 material
4) Don't set a DVD to force full output (16x9) if you're dubbing 4:3 material?

Haven't confirmed #4 yet, but it stands to reason from #3. These are some of the pitfalls a new owner of a component unit might run in to. As you point out, they are not "cons".

-Gregg
post #50 of 144
But does this not all hold true if you are using s-video inputs as well? Or composite for that matter?

What I am struggling with is what does this have to do with component inputs? Brands of media? I'm not tracking - or I'm missing something.
post #51 of 144
GreggPenn - when trying to copy your Parade you have a SA8300HD correct? What DVD recorder are you using?
post #52 of 144
Will the PQ be better using component versus S-video? All other factors being equal, would that be a reason for preferring a DVD recorder with component inputs?
post #53 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Will the PQ be better using component versus S-video? All other factors being equal, would that be a reason for preferring a DVD recorder with component inputs?

I think it is. But PQ is very subjective when personal preferences are involved.

If I'm doing something like GreggPenn is doing - trying to salvage a scratched disc before it goes totally bad - I would definitely use component if it was an option. But not having component will not preclude or obsolete the strategy.

The biggest problem are the darn cable and satellite boxes that letterbox 16x9 content via s-video. And broadcast full widescreen via component. Then component inputs have distinct and measurable advantage.
post #54 of 144
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

This thread did not specify the reason for having component connections, but it's a good point.

That's a good point. I'll add a segment on the original post for people who may not be aware of this extra benefit. Please feel free to make corrections/additions/etc!
post #55 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

GreggPenn - when trying to copy your Parade you have a SA8300HD correct? What DVD recorder are you using?

Yes, Polaroid 2001G
post #56 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

Yes, Polaroid 2001G

Great - is the parade from an HD channel and was it widescreen 16x9 format?
post #57 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Will the PQ be better using component versus S-video? All other factors being equal, would that be a reason for preferring a DVD recorder with component inputs?

I have a DVD player with composite, S-Video, component, and HDMI outputs. For the fun of it, I connected all of them to my projector and cycled thru the outputs.

Composite is the softest, transmitting the least detail (sharpness) and least accurate color.

S-Video and component aren't terribly far apart, but component is better. Specifically the gradients of color (accuracy) and the contrast detail is better in the component signal.

HDMI is the best but my projector is inherently digital. This means it's engine is digital because its an LCD device. So, HDMI (digital) interface avoids D/A conversion! I've read where some people actually like the component segment of the HS20 projector better than HDMI output, but I attribute that to device variance.
post #58 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Great - is the parade from an HD channel and was it widescreen 16x9 format?

Yeppers.

FYI: Using Maxell DVD-R was my first failure. Setting the 8300 to 480I Std was my next. (Got grey bars when played on regular TV). Also, my 8300 went to screen saver mode 1/2 way thru the recording. Called Everest (my cable provider) and they couldn't tell me how to disable this or how/when it activates!
post #59 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

I have a DVD player with composite, S-Video, component, and HDMI outputs. For the fun of it, I connected all of them to my projector and cycled thru the outputs.

Composite is the softest, transmitting the least detail (sharpness) and least accurate color.

S-Video and component aren't terribly far apart, but component is better. Specifically the gradients of color (accuracy) and the contrast detail is better in the component signal.

HDMI is the best but my projector is inherently digital. This means it's engine is digital because its an LCD device. So, HDMI (digital) interface avoids D/A conversion! I've read where some people actually like the component segment of the HS20 projector better than HDMI output, but I attribute that to device variance.

I've read the same when comparing component to HDMI. I agree with you.

Unfortunately with the SA8300HD if you use HDMI it disables the component outputs! Insane. As a result I use component. I'm happy with the quality of the HD stuff via component. But not being able to use the HDMI as an extra output makes be wonder what my cable company is thinking.
post #60 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggPenn View Post

Yeppers.

FYI: Using Maxell DVD-R was my first failure. Setting the 8300 to 480I Std was my next. (Got grey bars when played on regular TV). Also, my 8300 went to screen saver mode 1/2 way thru the recording. Called Everest (my cable provider) and they couldn't tell me how to disable this or how/when it activates!

I'm with TWC and my 8300 is running Passport. Set your 8300 to the following:

Aspect ratio - 16x9
Output- 480i

That's it.

You should get full widescreen recordings via component to the Polaroid. If you are using HDMI to your television the component will be disabled. If because of this you are using s-video out of the 8300 to the Polaroid you will get the letterboxing. No adjustment will fix this.
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