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Mission Impossible: 3. Is this really reference quality? (ouch)

post #1 of 73
12/27/06 at 12:02pm
Thread Starter 
Hi again.

I just picked up the MI:3 3-pack on HD-DVD. I popped in MI:3 and scooted around the scenes some.

Now, I'm not going to brazenly spout off that MI:3 is a bad HD-DVD demo, but something is surely amiss.

Chapter 8, right at the very start. As the camera pans down, there is some REALLY ugly aliasing on the stairs. This is the first time I've seen such ugly aliasing on either BD or HD-DVD, and it stood out like a sore thumb.

Now, before I blame the movie, has anyone else seen this, and is it a hardware problem or an encode problem?

Hardware:

Samsung LN-S4695D 46" 1080p LCD
Toshiba A2-HD

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 73
12/27/06 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Hi again.

I just picked up the MI:3 3-pack on HD-DVD. I popped in MI:3 and scooted around the scenes some.

Now, I'm not going to brazenly spout off that MI:3 is a bad HD-DVD demo, but something is surely amiss.

Chapter 8, right at the very start. As the camera pans down, there is some REALLY ugly aliasing on the stairs. This is the first time I've seen such ugly aliasing on either BD or HD-DVD, and it stood out like a sore thumb.

Now, before I blame the movie, has anyone else seen this, and is it a hardware problem or an encode problem?

Hardware:

Samsung LN-S4695D 46" 1080p LCD
Toshiba A2-HD

Thanks in advance.

hey man,

i picked this movie up yesterday and i had the same issue, i just thought it was because i am using the 360 ADD ON AND VGA cable.

i have a sammy HL-R6768W using the 360 HD DVD add on with 1080p output through VGA.

the stairs did stand out, but the rest of the movie seems fine, i am going to watch it later this week.
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post #3 of 73
12/27/06 at 12:10pm
Nope, not reference, but a pretty well done transfer. There were some issues, but other parts were stunning.

It is rated mid-high Tier 1 in the PQ Tier thread...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7&page=1&pp=60

I actually thought it should be lower than it is..
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post #4 of 73
12/27/06 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappcatt View Post

Nope, not reference, but a pretty well done transfer. There were some issues, but other parts were stunning.

It is rated mid-high Tier 1 in the PQ Tier thread...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7&page=1&pp=60

I actually thought it should be lower than it is..


yea, i agree, it wasn't as impressive as i thought, i've only skimmed through the scenes, i will make my assumptions after i watch the movie in full.

i thought training day was a pretty good movie, PQ was really good IMO. better than that of MI3.
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post #5 of 73
12/27/06 at 12:18pm
Thread Starter 
I think I've just been far too spoiled by Kingdom of Heaven, though others will disagree, of course. It was the first HD movie I've ever viewed.
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post #6 of 73
12/27/06 at 1:30pm
MI 3 is pretty good video quality IMHO, though i do see the aliasing on the stairs. another place i notice this is in aeon flux where the string beads are hanging like a curtain. you know the scene, where she is wearing the outfit. you know the one i'm talking about. I thought it might be my projector, as it's an old nec lt240k (strapping on my flak vest as i say that) other than the stairs in mi3, it's got great quality in my opinion.
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post #7 of 73
12/27/06 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean111 View Post

another place i notice this is in aeon flux where the string beads are hanging like a curtain. you know the scene, where she is wearing the outfit.

There are beads and a curtain in that scene? Really?!
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post #8 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by valkyrie View Post

There are beads and a curtain in that scene? Really?!

LOL. I haven't even seen Aeon Flux (thank goodness), but that made me laugh.
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post #9 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:13pm
Aliasing on the stairs is caused by your display, Its not because of a bad transfer. On my JVC D-ILA (720p) the stairs in that scene look almost completely solid.
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post #10 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by egore View Post

Aliasing on the stairs is caused by your display, Its not because of a bad transfer. On my JVC D-ILA (720p) the stairs in that scene look almost completely solid.

Are you sure? My LCD is a 1080p LCD. Seems odd that this would happen... Seems more likely to happen on a 720p display due to scaling..
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post #11 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:23pm
I can't stand all the film grain in MI3. Lots of scenes also look a little out of focus. I found the first Lethal Weapon to be a much better transfer.
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post #12 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:39pm
What kind of 1080i to 1080p processing are you guys using ? I don't have anything approaching these kinds of artifacts on either of these films I've seen many times.
The stairs are about as solid as they can be considering that the higher distant stairs approach the resolution of the 1080p display and format. The strings aboard the Relicle are just solid.

Art
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post #13 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I can't stand all the film grain in MI3. Lots of scenes also look a little out of focus. I found the first Lethal Weapon to be a much better transfer.

*gasps*
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post #14 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I can't stand all the film grain in MI3. Lots of scenes also look a little out of focus. I found the first Lethal Weapon to be a much better transfer.

LW1 is BAD and Bobbed, all catalog title from September (except The Searcher) and beyond are baldy bobbed
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post #15 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:53pm
Thread Starter 
Another example is in chapter 7, where the van pulls outside the Vatican near the beginning of that chapter. There is some serious moire on the wall to the left. I do not know what the deal is, but MI:3 has some issues.
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post #16 of 73
12/27/06 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

What kind of 1080i to 1080p processing are you guys using ? I don't have anything approaching these kinds of artifacts on either of these films I've seen many times.
The stairs are about as solid as they can be considering that the higher distant stairs approach the resolution of the 1080p display and format. The strings aboard the Relicle are just solid.

Art

In a few days I will be testing this scene (47minute mark) with the new Panny 1080p plasma (50") using an A1 and an Anthem D2 for 1080i--->1080p. I will also try inputing 1080i directly to the panel. We'll see.

Personally, I have seen the aliasing at this particular scene on two different displays running all kinds of resolutions, outputting progressive/interlaced...doesn't matter, using both an A1 and the 360 add on.

Art, what is your video chain to your Sony?
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post #17 of 73
12/27/06 at 4:05pm
It is your display that is causing the artifacts - it is unable to resolve the fine details in the stairs and the beaded curtain.

MI3 is a fantastic transfer and very faithful to the theatrical release (film grain and all).
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post #18 of 73
12/27/06 at 4:38pm
Greetings

Most 1080p displays actually don't process 1080i signals correctly ... hence the moire problems you see.

It's the Display issue, and not the disc. I have seen the same image on a few displays that do show it correctly and it is clean.

Regards
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post #19 of 73
12/27/06 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawn View Post

Art, what is your video chain to your Sony?

HDA1 --> component video--> Faroudja 5000--> 1080p 60Hz --> RGBHV--> Extron Distribution amp--> G90 projectors

We looked at my systems ability to properly deinterlace and pick up the 3:2 cadence from a test disc that has a lot of test materials from both Stacy Spears work as well as the upcoming JKP HDDVD at the HDDVD get together in my home a week and a half ago and it handled it beautifully.

I think if folks are seeing egregious issues as they say it must at least be partially due to deinterlacing deficiencies.

I can see a very very small amount of motion in those stairs but if you look they are approaching the size of single pixels at the top. If you move single pixel width lines across a screen with substandard deinterlacing you will get some nasty looking stuff.

Art
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post #20 of 73
12/27/06 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

It is your display that is causing the artifacts - it is unable to resolve the fine details in the stairs and the beaded curtain.

MI3 is a fantastic transfer and very faithful to the theatrical release (film grain and all).

Absolutely agree !
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post #21 of 73
12/27/06 at 5:03pm
This film was VERY grainy at the theater. I didnt notice any aliasing ut it wasnt the prettiest film i had ever seen at my local dlp equipped theater.
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post #22 of 73
12/27/06 at 6:45pm
I didn't think it looked that great, but the night scenes in China(I think) looked pretty damn good.
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post #23 of 73
12/27/06 at 7:06pm
MI3 looks outstanding. I didn't notice any PQ issues. I am viewing on a 60" SXRD via HDMI.
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post #24 of 73
12/27/06 at 7:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

HDA1 --> component video--> Faroudja 5000--> 1080p 60Hz --> RGBHV--> Extron Distribution amp--> G90 projectors

We looked at my systems ability to properly deinterlace and pick up the 3:2 cadence from a test disc that has a lot of test materials from both Stacy Spears work as well as the upcoming JKP HDDVD at the HDDVD get together in my home a week and a half ago and it handled it beautifully.

I think if folks are seeing egregious issues as they say it must at least be partially due to deinterlacing deficiencies.

I can see a very very small amount of motion in those stairs but if you look they are approaching the size of single pixels at the top. If you move single pixel width lines across a screen with substandard deinterlacing you will get some nasty looking stuff.

Art

So you're not necessarily blaming my display as others are wont to do. I did not see any aliasing in any of my Blu-ray discs, or even Black Hawk Down/King Kong on HD-DVD for that matter.
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post #25 of 73
12/27/06 at 10:34pm
Thread Starter 
I just finished watching The Hulk. Absolutely fantastic transfer, with no moire or aliasing. So MI:3 appears to just not be that good. The Hulk actually blew me away in some scenes. Definitely the most impressive HD-DVD I've seen by a LONG way. Someone please tell me The Hulk is a reference disc.
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post #26 of 73
12/28/06 at 12:44am
I like the overcranked contrasts and dancing film grain more on MI:3, and the color palette really popped. Hulk was just sharp with incredible definition, nothing more.
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post #27 of 73
12/28/06 at 4:44am
Outstanding transfer. Demo material. Nuff said.
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post #28 of 73
12/28/06 at 4:51am
I saw the aliasing on the Vatican stairs as well.
1080i into a Pearl (tho I realize the Pearls deinterlacer isn't that good...I've seen flashes of combing here and there- not often, but i have seen it)
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post #29 of 73
12/28/06 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I just finished watching The Hulk. Absolutely fantastic transfer, with no moire or aliasing. So MI:3 appears to just not be that good. The Hulk actually blew me away in some scenes. Definitely the most impressive HD-DVD I've seen by a LONG way. Someone please tell me The Hulk is a reference disc.

So you see alaising on your display in one two second pan which doesn't occur on my display and then make that comment ? So it appears to be just not that good ?

I'm getting to the point of just having to laugh at some of these posts. The film had lots of grain, it had pumped up contrast it had tremendous blacks , sharpness and color saturation and looked like the theatrical presentation.

Art
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post #30 of 73
12/28/06 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

So you're not necessarily blaming my display as others are wont to do. I did not see any aliasing in any of my Blu-ray discs, or even Black Hawk Down/King Kong on HD-DVD for that matter.

I'm saying that moire was minimal in that scene with my set up. It didn't catch my eye at all the first three times I watched this HDDVD. I looked for it after posts here and could barely make out a little if I studied it. There are no perfect transfers guys. On my display if you are looking to reproduce an intended look that is stricking you get it with MI III.

I'm convinced that those who are getting a lot of distracting moire on that scene have deinterlacing issues most likely.


Art
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