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FnEasy DIY Painted Screen Solution - Page 3

Todd

I like the way you are thinking.

Would it be possible to first make 3 samples of just the single pigments in the UPW and test them for RGB.

Based on the tested RGB numbers the test sends back could you then numerically compute a mix rate of the three. I'm not sure if it would take a calculus or not to do this but basically each separate pigmented mix should have a value in each of the RGB columns. Simple adding the 3 sets of number should give you the results of the 1:1:1 ratio and based around those numbers you could compute what ratio of each group it would take so the resulting addition of numbers would come out all the same.

If not calculus then we could just randomly try mixes in different volumes and by trial and error see the result then confirm that with actual paint tests.

Not sure I explained that as good as I could have.

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A spread sheet should be a good tool to do the what-if's in and if prof55 tests those 9 examples you will not only have the basic pigment data but a few of the what-if's as known real confirmed data points to plug in the mathematical equivalent and see if you get the same result.

What you will have to do is say there will be some mixture of all 3 and the total mixture has to equal 100% always what will vary is the percent of each but the total always has to be 100% so if you find you need less blue say. You don't just reduce the blue but you add back in the additional red and green to get to 100%.

Because this is FnEasy and most of your cost after you buy all the paints will be postage and most of prof55's time will be in setting up to do it. Why not give half of each sample a coat of the Flat Poly also and have him check RGB on both halves. Your other data on the grays seem like the poly changed the RGB just a little. Just a thought and I don't think the poly will change the percent makeup of the RGB's just shift them a little. Just a thought.

I'm not sure what camp I'm in I have been thrown out of most of them already. I think I'm going to see if I can get in the bright white screen camp. All this snow has given me a idea.
I hate to ask but while you are at it.. could we send him a yellow oxide / UPW sample made the same way. I think we might already have the RGB data on UPW LB gray around here someplace.

If the spread sheet idea works with the 3 pigment approach it should work on a LB YO also. And in the rare event its impossible to get neutral from the 3 (RGB) pigment mix and we needed to add yellow you will have that pigment already isolated.

I knew we should have worked on the genome project instead much simpler
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler

Actually what you do is add untinted UPW to reduce the colorant.

That will work. The only problem I see is that we then assume UPW has a perfect neutral balance and we know it doesn't. When you make all your mixes by using dilution the amount of UPW per unit of paint mix is now a variable. When you do it by both increasing quantity of one while decreasing the amount of the other two the UPW per pigment ratio never changes. I think ......
Todd: I don't know if you separated the data on your previous samples, but here's an example showing #3,4,5 and 6 (the LB/YO series). The same technique should work for the RGB:

I have benefitted greatly from this site and all of those who have worked hard. And I offer my thanks.

But hasn't this thread just gone from FnEasy to FnHard?

I stopped by to ask if I screwed up by not not sanding my wall to "baby butt" smooth. Looks like I need to hire a FnEasyChemist soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler

The development of a tint formula is not easy but it is possible. In the end though the use of an RGB tint formula will be no more difficult than the Lamp Black and Yellow Oxide. The paint will still be an easily rolled flat latex paint with a matte poly top coat. The beauty of a forum like this is that you don't have to hire a chemist. Just wait for the hoplessly obsessed to figure it out and then just use it.

Why do you think you screwd up?

What is the benefit of using a RBT tint formula?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler

FnEasy Quick Notes:

Use 3/16" nap synthetic white paint rollers to apply all paint layers.
Apply all paints in roller width vertical strips.
Blend the strip boundaries by working across the gap and back again.
Apply two coats of a flat white primer.

Apply two coats of flat gray or white latex.
Allow paint to dry completely (approx 12 hrs).
Switch to a clean roller for the polyurethane.
Stir the polyurethane before using.
Roll slowly and lightly when applying the polyurethane.
Apply two coats of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780.

Do you think if any improvements will be made in replacing the "two coats of flat gray or white latex" with product from "Goo Systems". From their site "Screen Goo is a specially formatted, highly reflective acrylic paint, designed specifically for the video projection industry. Screen Goo acrylic paint allows one to transform any smooth paintable surface into a high performance projection screen."

Thanks,
phamdinhnguyen
If you use screen Goo (nothing wrong with it) just paint an extra test board and put the clear on it....... as a test.

Anytime you are adding a clear/matt (hard finish top coat) over any screen paint a test board would be wise........
While I think you might be going too far in-depth for the purposes of THIS thread (regarding the RGB mixes), I find this to be very interesting.

Keep up the good work Todd!
Quote:

Of course all the information required to implement an FnEasy Solution will be maintained in the first few posts. The problem is most people tend to jump to the last post and may miss the summary info up front.

You got me. I usually start at the end and restart to catch the other details
I read elsewhere that the HD1000U (the projector I'm looking at purchasing, and painting this screen for...) has problems with greens, and that is something due to the design. The complaint I read recently is that during the Super Bowl, the grass looked "pea green". The Lamp Black / Yellow Oxide mix has a green deficiency, so will that be a bad choice to pair up with that projector? I was looking at the Sherwin Williams "Gray Screen" (199 203 203) which the numbers appear more balanced, and no gree deficiency. Would this be a better choice? I read comments about how some paints are easier to roll without leaving marks. Where does Sherwin Williams stand in comparison to Behr in this way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by checklst

Hey WET1 you might try a wetting agent sometimes called an extender....it extends dry time(allows the surface more time to settle and smooth) but it's big attribute to me was it made the paint flow/roll much much better taking the hassle out of eliminating roller marks.

checklst - I finished my 106" screen this weekend (directly on a textured wall that was prepped with sanding and floating w/ new mud). I put on 3 coats Kilz Premium (3rd coat went on after I had to fill in some dips I missed) and then 2 coats of a custom tinted mix of Behr UPW. I gave it a test run after the tinted Behr UPW dried completely and the image was great. I then put on the initial coat of Matte Poly, let it dry, saw some incomplete coverage then added a 2nd coat. As soon as I started up the PJ I noticed vertical roller marks. I'm guessing it's the Poly? Can I put on another coat of tinted Behr UPW mixed w/ an extender over the top Poly coat and stick with that or can you not put a flat paint on top of the Poly? I did notice the diff. in whites w/ the Poly, so I hate to trash it - but after just watching Flyboys and seeing those vert. lines, I can't keep my eyes off them...
now this is interesting..... it would seem that with suitable standards, maybe 3 - a white, light grey and dark grey (3 points for gamma), we could calibrate a scanner "reasonably close for DIY work.... keep us posted !!! I have access to a large pair of Pantone color chip books at work

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJScorio

I read elsewhere that the HD1000U (the projector I'm looking at purchasing, and painting this screen for...) has problems with greens, and that is something due to the design. The complaint I read recently is that during the Super Bowl, the grass looked "pea green". The Lamp Black / Yellow Oxide mix has a green deficiency, so will that be a bad choice to pair up with that projector? I was looking at the Sherwin Williams "Gray Screen" (199 203 203) which the numbers appear more balanced, and no gree deficiency. Would this be a better choice? I read comments about how some paints are easier to roll without leaving marks. Where does Sherwin Williams stand in comparison to Behr in this way?

NJ,
FWIW, I have a HD1000U and recently painted my screen using the tinted UPW with the poly T/C. I've read the same comments regarding the pea green issues and I tend to think it must effect some units to a greater degree than others. I don't see this issue on my PJ (using this screen). Although, I don't think this screen has much to do with me seeing or not seeing the pea greens, I think it has much more to do with the out of the OTB calibrations of the unit. That's not to say a screen can't influence the picture, because it certainly can, but this screen is pretty neutral so the image you see with it should be very representative of what the PJ is displaying.

Also keep in mind when you're talking about RGB numbers so close as we're talking about (say 201 197 202 for example), you'd likely never be able to notice a very slight dip or boost in any one color. I believe you have to increase or decrease a number by about 5 before the human eye can start to detect a change... so keep that in mind when comparing these numbers. Furthermore, looking to see how neutral the color is (compared to D65 or C) is probably just as significant, if not more so, than the RGB numbers. Again, this mix is pretty neutral (it's right between D65 and C if I recall correctly).

Either way, I think you'll find this screen works very well with the HD1000U. I'm expecting the JVC RS1 I ordered within the next few weeks as well. Initially I plan on testing it out on this screen before I make a final decision regarding what I'll use for a screen with that PJ... but based on what I've seen with the HD1000U on this screen, I wouldn't be surprised if RS1 is stunning on this screen. If so, I might try a metallic version of this mix.

Regarding roller marks... The UPW will leave roller marks if you're not careful. If you use the techniques Todd (Tiddler) has detailed in another thread, they shouldn't be much of an issue. I haven't used the True Value paint so I can't comment on it, but the SW paint is certainly easier to work with than the Behr UPW. I can tell you I won't roll another screen if I can help it. Spraying just gives much more uniform results and should be your first choice if you have access to the equipment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wack70

checklst - I finished my 106" screen this weekend (directly on a textured wall that was prepped with sanding and floating w/ new mud). I put on 3 coats Kilz Premium (3rd coat went on after I had to fill in some dips I missed) and then 2 coats of a custom tinted mix of Behr UPW. I gave it a test run after the tinted Behr UPW dried completely and the image was great. I then put on the initial coat of Matte Poly, let it dry, saw some incomplete coverage then added a 2nd coat. As soon as I started up the PJ I noticed vertical roller marks. I'm guessing it's the Poly? Can I put on another coat of tinted Behr UPW mixed w/ an extender over the top Poly coat and stick with that or can you not put a flat paint on top of the Poly? I did notice the diff. in whites w/ the Poly, so I hate to trash it - but after just watching Flyboys and seeing those vert. lines, I can't keep my eyes off them...

If I had to make a guess, I'd say the roller marks are most likely in the tinted UPW. Kilz2 and the poly seem to roll and flow out better, so that's the only reason I suspect it's in the UPW. With that said, it's possible to get roller marks with any of the above. Keep in mind the poly increases the gain of the screen... and will also magnify defects such as roller marks, regardless of which layer they are in. It's very possible the marks were there before the poly was applied, and you just didn't see them on the flat/matte base coating.

Since the rollers marks are there regardless of which layer they are in, I think your only choice is to remove them since it will drive you nuts knowing they're there. I'd take a orbital sander over the screen (fine paper such as 150 or less) and try to get the entire surface level again. In doing this you may of may not break through the color layer. If you do, you'll have to reapply at least one coat of the tinted UPW (and this might be a good idea either way). Just make sure you don't have any roller marks when you do it next time! Now that you have a good base again, go back and reapply a layer of poly over the top.

While I'm thinking about it... I'm not crazy about applying a second layer of poly IF you had good (and smooth) coverage on the first layer. You only need one layer to get the gain and protection benefits. Adding a second coat only increases the chances of sealing in more contaminants (such as hairs or other debris). At some point too much poly could discolor the screen a little and also cause optical issues. For these reasons I'd suggest only using one coat of poly IF you have a good uniform coating on the first pass, if not then by all means apply a second coat. If for some reason you feel a third coat is required, I'd suggest running over the screen with a orbital sander (fine paper) first before doing so. Obviously you'll need to wipe the surface down before reapplying the poly. Sanding will hopefully remove any defects that are a concern and also keep the poly from becoming too thick.

I'd also suggest using those smooth foam 1/4" hot dog rollers. They seem to do a better job of keeping roller marks at bay and also tend to keep the the amount applied to a minimum if used properly.

Good luck!
Wet1

Thanks for the info (in this topic, and in the one about the green push). I think I will give either the UPW Behr mix in this topic a shot, or the SW Grey Screen. Being my first screen, and my first experience with rollers, I'm looking for the paint that rolls on with the least potential for marks, while being a netural grey.
Wet1 - thanks for the suggestions. I had suspected the roller marks might be in the UPW layer and not in the Poly layer, but I didn't think about the Poly intensifying the roller marks... My thoughts were to finely sand down the Poly layer (at least enough to help a new coat of UPW adhere well) and apply the new UPW coat with both the extender mixed in AND using the foam roller. I have access to a professional grade airless paint rig, but I hate the thought of prepping the area again for the mess they make, not to mention that a 1 qt. can of paint will get used up by priming the rig alone... What type of sprayer did you use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wack70

Wet1 - thanks for the suggestions. I had suspected the roller marks might be in the UPW layer and not in the Poly layer, but I didn't think about the Poly intensifying the roller marks... My thoughts were to finely sand down the Poly layer (at least enough to help a new coat of UPW adhere well) and apply the new UPW coat with both the extender mixed in AND using the foam roller. I have access to a professional grade airless paint rig, but I hate the thought of prepping the area again for the mess they make, not to mention that a 1 qt. can of paint will get used up by priming the rig alone... What type of sprayer did you use?

You might very well be able to remove the roller marks w/o having to reapply the UPW. Keep in mind the roller marks are a BUILD UP of paint and need to be removed before adding anything over the top. Use the orbital sander as suggested and remove as little as possible across the surface to just rid the defects. Don't use your bare hands to do the sanding as your fingers will sand unevenly. If you must do it by hand, use a block or a board to keep everything flat. Keep the sander flat at all times!

For the tinted UPW screen I just did, I rolled it based on everyone's suggestions. Like I said, next time I'll spray. As careful as I was it still has some very slight roller marks in it. I have a professional grade airless sprayer and a HVLP / compressor rig as well. As you noted, the airless sprayer will require some priming and use more to feed the system. They don't do as good of a job as a HVLP gun, but they certainly work far better than a roller! I've painted many cars with my HVLP gun and I'm pretty good with it, so given the choice I'd stick with it over an airless rig. Either way, you're going to have some over-spray. Then again, I'd rather cover everything in the room and mask the area than be distracted by roller marks every time I look at the screen.

As I mentioned before, if you can avoid having to reapply the UPW, I think you might be fine with just rolling the poly (but be careful!)

Also, in the future paint a piece of 1/8" to 1/4" substrate and attach it to the wall. This way you can do all your work where ever and not have to worry about over-spray or sanding in your nice room. A piece of coated hard board is only \$9 at HD. This also makes it very easy to restore the room later should you need to.
Yes I read your BRPI and it was helpful. I've tried your method as described and also the 'hot dog' roller only method (which seemed to work better for me). If anything I suspect in my case too much paint was being laid down or loaded up in the roller causing roller marks. I didn't end up with bad RM, but they are slightly visible. Since I have the spray equipment and am comfortable with the use of the equipment, I'm not going to bother rolling another screen. This is not to say it can't be done (as you and plenty of others have demonstrated)... I just believe you can get much better results with a properly setup spray system. Look at it this way, have you ever seen an automotive finish be applied with a roller?

Yes, I've sanded plenty of latex paint with an orbital sander (way more than I care to think about). As long as it's cured, you keep the sander moving quickly, and don't heat the surface up, it works fine. Let it heat the paint up and you end up with a mess. While I've done plenty of wet sanding, I've never tried it on latex. It makes way too much mess for my liking and I've never found a need for doing it as an orbital has always worked fine for me (if used as I suggested above).

When I say airless rig, I'm referring to what is considered more of a commercial HD type sprayer which is often used by professionals. They typically are two piece systems (separate gun and pump) and often have 1/2hp pumps or more. While Wagner makes some better grade products, the little hand-held unit MM has will not work for paints which have higher viscosities (such as these). I believe Wagner also makes hand-helds which might work for these thicker paints, but I haven't used one of those models. I suspect those would work for small jobs like a screen, but again I haven't used them so I cant say how the spray pattern looks or if they do indeed handle high viscosity paints. Then again, you could always thin the paint...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler

While I appreciate all the advice being given regarding the application of the paint I am a little disturbed at the direction this is going. So I would like to ask a couple of questions to try to determine how such an easy application has gone wrong for a few people.

For those that seem to having trouble rolling a flat latex paint like UPW without getting roller marks did you read the Basic Roller Painting Instructions provided in the Beginner's Guide and linked in the first post of this thread?

For those rolling the latex paints did you use a 3/16" or 1/4" np white synthetic roller? Once you had spread the vertical strip of paint did you roll up and down and pass back over the 1/4" gap between the current strip and the last.? Is it possible you worked the paint more than just enough to spread it and go across the gap and back once?

Wet1 have you ever tried sanding latex paint with an orbital sander? Anytime I have it just rolls the latex up into little balls and either does nothing or makes little circular gouges in the surface. Have you ever tried wet sanding latex paint?

Wet1 when you say and air less sprayer is that one like the Wagner sprayer that MM just demonstrated?

Ok. Off topic I suppose. But here goes.

First time PJ owner so I painted my wall essentially black and left an 84" hole for the screen. Two coats of oil Kilz. Roller nap was probably too hairy but I was thrilled.

Expanded screen size to 90" (good enough for me) and applied two more coats of oil Kilz because I needed to cover the black expansion.

Next step was two coats of tinted UPW with the "hot dog" roller followed by a coat of #780 poly. A week apart. I did the poly Sunday and have no feedback on that move yet. Super Bowl looked great. Every rain drop...........

My point is that I found that you can go back seven strips or even the whole screen with the hot dog and roll down ever so lightly with a dryish hot dog to smooth out your work. Top to bottom stroke and don't hesitate.

I also found that using the hot dog, you need to load it up and go for the middle of the strip first and spread it up and down from there before you smooth it with a one stroke pass.

I hope this helps someone. Anyone.
Tiiddler,

Your last post preceded mine so I'll respond to that one.

Nice rant, BTW.

Yes it does require a double dip to get a strip onto a 45" pass with the hot dog. Hell, I bought the thing because of you!....hehehe. It doesn't hold any paint at all.

But I've painted many multi paneled doors with oil based paint in my life with the goal of zero brush marks. Ain't easy but IF YOU PAY ATTENTION it gets done and nobody notices I've always worked off the "W" for walls but not for this project. I've followed your suggestions with great success.

But I have been going back for a final "smooth down" while it's still wet. I realize from my reading that it won't fly for a metalic paint, it works fine for flat. Are others just not paying enough attention to their work?
OK, hopefully this will end this sidebar and get the thread back on track -- I'm sure the reason I ended up with roller marks is b/c I was anxious to get it done B4 the Superbowl and I was pretty beat down from painting the walls & ceiling last weekend (not to mention running cables, installing a platform, brining in theater chairs, etc., etc.). I probably rolled my gap-covering strokes over some of the previous vert. strips but thought that a quick roll-over would smooth it out... wrong. I'm probably just going to do a light sanding on the Poly coat and re-apply the tinted UPW with more care this time as Tiddler is suggesting. Like he says: A bit of reading and maybe a little practice is all that is required. I read all the tips & instructions, and but I think the key ingredient is patience...
Let me just add a little something hear. I painted my screens final coat with a paint added Retarder. Water can be add to extend dry time, but it only extends it a little....unless you add a lot of water but that thins out the pigment to much.

A retarder is a additive that (coats)the water molecules, slowing down the dry time(evaporation) Some of the most common retarders are Glycerin, Propylene glycol ect............................without getting to technical and playing loose with the chemical makeup you are adding layer over the h2o to slow drying..........extended dry time also helps smooth/settle the surface.

The big benefit for most of us is it allows the use of the a "normal type" 3/16 or 1/4 in nap roller like Tiddler recommends, The one I used was a white 1/4 nap synthetic these have huge benefits over the (hot dog) type THEY hold a lot more PAINT. Anything that gets you done quicker and off the surface is better in my book.........I rolled my 110diag surface in quarters.......and at the half way mark I rolled back over the entire half with an extremely light stroke, at fully done, I could not see any roller marks so I was finished(took all of 8 min to roll the screen) AT the TIME I was worried it might get SAG as the dry time approached 1 hour it was shiny shiny wet for that length of time. Next time I would on use 2oz of the retarder, I used 4oz to a qt of paint.

Bottom line use the roller Tiddler recommends(normal type)but still a high quality type, and get your dry time extended and STOP PULLING out your hair...LOL..... save that hair for the projectors color calibration......hehehehe.
Todd,

Maybe I wasn't clear enough regarding my spraying comments above, if not I apologize.

These paints can certainly be rolled with good results, it just takes patience, practice, and very conscientious work with the roller. Another thing that makes all the difference in the world is proper lighting (if working indoors)... this is true if rolling or spraying. I only suggest spraying if you have access to the equipment because it's easier, faster, and better results can be obtained. By no means is spraying a 'must' for laying down this screen... although I still think spraying is almost a must to get superior results laying down high metallic finishes (but that's not the case with the FnEasy system).

As I mentioned before, I did try using the 3/16" roller and the hot-dog roller. Both worked, but I found the hot-dog only seemed to work better for me. I also found I did have to double dip the hot-dog to lay enough paint for each pass, but that didn't seem to be a big deal. In the end I still ended up with slight roller marks (very slight), but I'm not sure it they came from the hot dog or the 3/16" method. Without a doubt, they could have been worked out had I noticed them at the time of application (hence the recommendation for excellent lighting). Either way, in the future I'll just stick to spraying since I do have the equipment to spray and I would suggest others spray as well IF they have the equipment. I only rolled this screen because I wanted to give the FnEasy system a try w/o using more advanced methods and I'm very impressed with the results in general.

The reason I didn't bother with doing a more advanced mix on this screen, is because I didn't need or want the extra brightness that comes with those mixes. This screen is being used in our BR with a HD1000U (1500 lumens) PJ and the screen is only 80". With so much light output on such a small screen, it doesn't make much sense to use a more advanced mix for this application which is why I thought I'd give FnEasy a try.

Again, I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression spraying this screen is a must, that is not the case at all.
I'm new to this (so this may be a stupid question), but after each layer of UWP, or whatever you use, should you take one of those sanding sponges and just wipe down the screen? Wouldn't this help with roller marks? Would this have any adverse effect?
Ah, yes, that post is what got me thinking. He only mentions sanding inbetween the layers of Kilz 2, not between the layers of gray. I was just wondering if there was any reason it might not be a good idea to do so. I am just looking to avoid any roller marks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler

Based on MM's recommendations for the Kilz2 you could use the same approach with the UPW but as he suggeste with the Kilz2 plan on "3" coats to compensate for the sanding losses.

In my experience with UPW it smooths out pretty well assuming you get enough on and don't over work it. The results are a gentle orange peel type of surface. There is no stippling type texture like you see in my screen.

A very flat sandable primer like Kilz2 is a bit like putting on a very thin skim coat of mud. Then sanding it smooth and adding another two coat as MM has suggested. The result would be a very smooth primer white surface to apply you UPW to. Tha would avoid any additive build up of texture in the surface.

I actually plan on working with SW Gray Screen, as I like the RGB results, and my family (who is more famliar with paints than I am) loves SW. I read here that it also may be easier to apply.

While we are at it, I just have a quick question about rolling. After having done two verticle lines, with 1/4" gap in between, do you add any more paint when you go over the gap? How much should you work over that gap? Less than the initial verticle lines? (for instance, 2 up, 2 down)
I feel dense, but I just want to futher clarify that paragraph...

So you do 6 up and down strokes to paint a verticle line, perpendicular to the floor. Then 6 more up and down strokes to blenc back across the 1/4" onto the last strip....so you would be overlapping the last strip, correct? Is this part of the process a verticle line perpendicular to the floor, or lines on a slight angle to travel from one verticle line across to the other? Then another 6 up and down strokes (at slight angles) to move back to the last line, with the last stroke going up and down the entirety of that verticle line?
Tiddler, the next time you are trying the top coat approach, grab some GLOSS clearcoat and then make a mix of the gloss and matt. With test strips of different ratios like 75% Gloss 25% Matt, 80%Gloss 20% matt and so on you will quickly be able to establish the perfect amount for viewing cone, reflective gain compromise.

You can do most of the tuning in daylight and narrow strips and looking at the angled reflective nature.

Think you might be pleasently surprised by the tuning and final effect
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