How big of a difference does upscaling do for DVD's?

I can answer your question with great certainty. The certain answer is "it depends".

DVDs have a lower resolution than your display and so processing for de-interlacing and scaling will need to be performed somewhere. The question then is where the best place is for each of the various types of processing to take place. In some systems this processing could take place in the source component, in the receiver, and/or in the display.

Each person needs to look closely at the strengths and weakness of each of their components for each type of processing and decide where they would like that processing to be performed.

For example, NEC plasmas are known for their video processing strength. NEC folks typically keep the signal in 480i until it reaches the display thus allowing the display to perform all the processing. There are some source components that will output 480i over a digital connection and some receivers that will pass this through without further processing allowing the display to handle it from there. So with a NEC, you might take that approach.

Others with other displays might prefer to have the source or a receiver/processor perform some/all processing. Ideally, if a signal is processed prior to a display, it should be processed completely and input in such a way that allows the display to be driven at its native resolution and rate with 1:1 mapping. This allows the video processing in the display to be bypassed and effectively removes a layer of processing. This, however, is not always possible.

It is my understanding that while scaling per se is not trivial and that different scalars yield different quality results, de-interlacing is far more difficult to do well. Therefore, I would look first at the component offering the best de-interlacing and have that component perform the processing if possible. BTW this is why the better external processors cost 4-6k. These are tera-flop processors with very sophisticated de-interlacing algorithms dealing with motion as well as various types of noise reduction.

So as you see it all depends on your specific components and their relative processing strengths.

Cheers,

Gary

It can make a difference, and it is dependent on all your conponents. But if I had to do it over, I would spend the money on HD DVD or BlueRay-whatever you fancy. I could have bought a HD player with all the upconverting/experimenting, and then I bought one anyway. There is no comparison.

I would say that you should DEFINITELY get a DVD player that upscales to 720p or 1080i. A DVD player that's only progressive and it doesn't have an hdmi port, means that it can only upscale the image to 480p, which is fine, but it doesn't compare with 1080i for example. The DVDs look so darn good at that resolution that you'll almost not tell the difference between them and HD DVD or Bluray. Seriously!
I personally not gonna even bother considering buying any of the other formats, as they are just useless right now, not to mention there're just a couple of titles out for them. So to spend $500-$1000 for a HD DVD player or Bluray, just so I can watch a handful of movies, that look the same as an DVD being upscaled.... no thanks! Don't buy into the hype, get a cheap nice DVD player that can upscale and use hdmi cable.
I got this Zenith player when it was on sale at CC:
circuitcity.com/ssm/Zenith-1080i-Up-Conversion-DVD-Player-DVB612. Very nice player!

"Look the same" ??? Then I must have a magical DVD Player. Good for me.

Also here's a thread about Upconverting DVD Player Options/Impressions.

You asked specifically whether your plasma can "upscale". What you need to understand is that all plasmas are fixed pixel devices. As such, they only display in one "fixed" resolution; normally 768x1366/5. This means that all plasmas will scale all signals input to them to that resolution.

Additionally, plasmas are progressive display devices, which means that unlike CRTs they display all horrizontal lines at the same time. As a result, all plasmas will also de-interlace input signals that are interlaced.

However, some plasmas have cheap circuits that perform this processing and so a better picture quality can sometimes be had by having an external component (with higher quality processing) perform these operations and sending the resulting processed signal to the display. This external component can be either a DVD player, a receiver with video processing capabilities, or even a dedicated external video processor.

When you look at this question you also need to examine the video path from end to end to see if conversions from digital to analog and back to digital are being forced unnecessarily. Generally, the fewer conversions the better. Ideally a digital signal remains digital in the player and is sent over a digital connection where it remains digital entering the display. In the display it remains and is processed digitally until at the end of the path the video DACs convert a digital RGB signal from a (digital) color decoder to analog RGB voltages to drive the RGB sub-pixels. Actually even better is sending a digital signal that is already RGB at the display's native display resolution and rate (assuming the dislay can accept such a signal) so the display does not need to do any further processing except drive the pixels via its DACs. (I hope I have this right but if a color decoder or other circuitry still needs to be used someone please correct me. The general concept, however, is correct.).

When external devices "upconvert" signals, they can normally send these signals over digital connections thus saving a digital to analog conversion at the component and another analog to digital conversion at the display. But remember if the upconversion does not yield a complete conversion to the display's full native resolution, then additional upconversion which could be de-interlacing or scaling or both will need to be done by the display. Scaling twice while not a crime is best avoided if possible.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Gary

Don't spend a bunch of money on a gold-plated HDMI cable. It's digital, so it'll either work or it won't (1/0). Usually stores like Big Lots carry them at a very affordable price.

I just got a one for my upscaling dvd player and it made a noticable difference.

For high quality, very low cost cables, try www.monoprice.com, many folks on this forum use them.

FWIW a friend of mine has the same Panny Plasma that I own (PX60U 42") & he picked up a Tosh HD-DVD drive (the popular one, I am not sure of the model # but it's the one that's supposed to do a great job at upconverting normal DVD's).

Here's the scoop on what we have noticed from his Tosh HD-DVD and Panny Plasma setup:

- HD-DVD's look super great, as good as film HD broadcast on a major network

- up converted normal DVD's look great, better than i would have thought normal DVD's would look on a plasma

But thru his normal 480p older Sony DVD player the same normal DVD's also look great, so in this case to us at least, there was little if any advantage to playing back normal DVD's with the Tosh HD-DVD player versus the normal player.

I was thinking about getting an Oppo player to go with my Panny plasma but after seeing my friend's Tosh upconvert normal DVD's I have decided it's not worth the $$$, I'll save my $$$ to put towards a HD format DVD player down the line when a standard is more clear.

From the moment I played my 1st DVD in my 480p Sony player on the Panny plasma I was more than satisfied. I never thought normal DVD's could look so good as they did with the 480p player on the Panny.

Maybe it's becasue of the smaller screen size that normal DVD's look very good on our plasma's. Perhaps with a larger 50" - 60" plasma / lcd set you would notice more compression / artifacts when viewing normal DVD's?

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm all set with my 3+ year old Sony 480p player. It will save me $$$ & it looks great BUT I have to admit: I just wanted to get an unconverting player for the "WOW Factor" -something else to go with the new plasma. :-)

Since you have that plasma, make sure the DvD player you choose is a good one and let it do the conversion.
Just get an HD-DvD player and be done with it.

If only the darn HD dvd solutions weren't so expensive & oh yeah, if onyl there was one standard so we could be sure to get movies from all of the studios when we purchase a HD dvd player..... also if only we'd know which format will survive so we don't end up with a player and a library of HD discs which were only good for a couple of years (if the "other" format wins -the one you didn't happen to choose)....

just too expensive / risky of a solution to me. at least on a smaller screen 480p dvd's look pretty good in the meantime......

can't wait tho down the road when we have a sure / affordable choice for true hi-def home discs.....

I picked up a Toshiba HD-A1 and upconverted DVDs rival HD DVDs in PQ on my 42" Panny pdp. Very impressive. Even though there's a format war going on, the Toshibas are excellent upscaling units for the money, beating many players over twice their price including the Pio 59/79avi by accounts of many owners.

Mitsu Plush 1080p > Oppo Faroudja 1080p

The player would not upscale at all, only de-interlace. The native resolution of DVD on the disc is 480(i).


Seriously, you're wrong.


Useless, eh? So a true resolution up to 1920x1080, native frame rate of 24fps, and the possibility of uncompressed/lossless PCM soundtracks is "useless" to you? Tell ya what, skip the discs and stick to your VHS tapes. You know, those black, rectangular things. Also, both HD DVD and BD have about 150 or so titles each to their credit. Much more than "just a couple."


Seriously, you're wrong.

Taken a step further... Any fixed pixel-matrix based display technology (ie. plasma, LCD, DLP, LCoS, etc.) will have a scaler between the back input and the "mother glass" (the actual display, to use a plasma term). There is no way of getting around this if the display needs to accept all the various video signals (ie. 480i, 720p, 1080i, etc.) as some or none of them might match the native resolution of the display (ie. 720p matches a 720 display, nothing matches a 768 display). Putting a scaler in the DVD player accomplishes the same thing and allows the back panel output to be labeled as 720p, 1080i, etc. which is one aspect of HDTV that consumers get wrong time and time again. My friend once told me that his new plasma would do 1080i so he assumed it was true hi-def. Sadly, I popped his bubble when I pointed out in the manual specifications that the native resolution was only 480. The TV would accept video signals up to 1080i, but obviously that was not how it was ultimately displayed.

While I'm not going to disagree with you that there is a noticible difference in my eyes between 'upscaled' DVD and either of the high-def formats, on a smaller screen and to those with less discerning eyes (with film-based material) and/or a large viewing distance I can say that it's a YMMV on the perceived quality difference.

On a large front PJ system the difference is glaringly obvious. On a smaller screen and from far back... not so much.

As with everything, believe your eyes to tell you if it's worth your money. Don't let someone else tell you what to think. Tis' the nature of subjective things- resolution isn't the end all, be all of a good picture.

Sorry, but the difference is not glaringly obvious on my 720p front projector throwing a 92" diagonal image. I don't see much of a difference when switching from 480p -> 720p -> 1080i, certainly not enough to justify the marketing claims of some upscaling players. While I agree that a large display is best to see a possible difference, I just don't see enough improvement to agree that upscalers have that much better picture quality due to the scaling itself.

For my set up, I have two possibilities (that make the most sense):

1) The player de-interlaces and ouputs a 480p signal (via HDMI) which is scaled in my projector to its 720 native resolution.
2) The player de-interlaces, scales and outputs a 720p signal (via HDMI) which my projector 1:1 pixel maps to its 720 native resolution.

At the end of the day, the 480i from the disc is de-interlaced and scaled to the 720p of my projector. I just have the choice to use the scaler in the player or in the projector. So then any perceived picture quaility difference boils down to splitting hairs between scaler algorithms.


Absolutely agree. But from my own eyes and experience, I don't believe the hype of upscaling (upconverting) DVD players.

Marcusm,

Very well stated. The processing is going to take place somewhere and it is a matter of choosing where the best place is to perfrom the processing. Of course, it is best to avoid dual and unecessary processing.

Now with the advent of chips like the Reon and Realta from SI, where you perfrom the processing is about to become glarringly important. These chips are going to take us to the next level in PQ.

Cheers,

Gary

Does upscaling have any impact on black levels or banding etc for most?

Not much...

I have an OPPO OPDV971H up converting DVD player which renders a slightly better picture with my TH-50PX50U than the inexpensive progressive scan Philips DVD player I used before. Presumably the primary reasons the OPPO does a better job can be attributed to the connection interface: DVI --> HDMI versus component, and a better deinterlacer/scaling chipset (DCDi by Faroudja) than what the Philips had; rather than the fact it up converts 480i to 720p/1080i instead of playing DVDs back at 480p.

Ah, I was referring to the difference between upscaled DVD and High def, not 480p upscaled.

But my advice and yours still stands, it's really up to you if the money is worth spending.

As mentioned, your 720p projector is going to deinterlace and upscale 480i content (DVD) anyway, so it's a question of who's processing electronics are doing a better job at the end of the day in any event. As always YMMV.

Gotcha! Sorry if I shot back with both barrels.

Yes, on my projector the difference is night and day. My bud's brought over his A1 with a few HD DVD titles and picture is quite stunning even at only 720p. Blows any SD DVD, even those upscaled by the most sophisticated processing, right out of the water. No comparison.


Actually, my Panny S77 cannot output 480i via HDMI so its bottom end is 480p. The de-interlacing can only happen in the player (and that's a good thing because it's Faroudja equipped). So then the scaling is the only function left to choice: the player's or the projector's. Again, splitting hairs by my eyes.

I don't think I can add much to the general discussion as to whether all upscaled DVD players are worth it. But I will share my experience.

I have Panasonic's S52 paired with my TH-42PH9UK plasma. Comparing the image quality at 720p via HDMI from that player to both the component out on the same player and the component out on my Toshiba Tivo/DVD, the HDMI image is surprisingly better. I mean that literally: I was surprised by how much better it looked.

Someone asked about black level: I find the black level to be exactly the same, but the upscaled image to have much, much, much better shadow detail. The image via component on both players is very good -- I just didn't realize that there was so much more detail available in my DVDs until I saw them on this player (and this is after running DVE on both inputs). The image is also "crisper", without being sharp; no matter the sharpness setting, the 480p component signal just looks mushy.

YMMV obviously, but I'm personally glad that I ignored the "don't bother with upscaling" tripe and got this player. And considering that it was about $60, I can't see a downside.

Thanks for the black level and detail comments. I have the S97 Panasonic and thinking about trying out the hdmi output soon.

Take the plunge and you'll never go back!

I read the trend will continue to NOT put good VPs in the TV. It will be put in the source. (The problem with this is the idea of a STB being good!!!)

More coming soon, players with HQV:

"The most basic video processors perform their scaling calculations by analyzing no more than four pixels in the source image to create one pixel in the final image. This represents what is called a 4-tap scaler. (Without getting too technical, the number of "taps" determines the number of pixels that are analyzed.) With all other things being equal, a larger number of taps will result in better scaling quality. The average scaler uses no more than 16 taps. However, even this level of scaling can still produce blurry images.

HQV processing uses a scaler with an unprecedented 1024 taps. This level of quality reflects the fact that HQV processing has its roots in Teranex algorithms, which were developed for defense and military image analysis. For every pixel, the HQV processor evaluates the surrounding 1024 pixels in order to provide the best image quality when scaling the image up from standard definition. Again, when this advanced upsampling technology is combined with HQV Detail Enhancement, standard-definition broadcast TV and DVD can be enjoyed with near-HD quality."

I have a Samsung 851 and have "hacked" it to upscale through component, and upscaled looks worse than just plain 480i. I let my projector deinterlace.

The 720p over HDMI may be better than the component signal not necessarily because of scaling but rather because use of HDMI has eliminated a conversion in the player from digital to analog and another in the display from analog to digital. 480p from the player via HDMI may (or may not) have given as good a PQ. In fact, some players will output 480i onver HDMI, although it is not in the spec, and some displays, those with great de-interlacers (like NEC) do even better with this signal than 480p. Keeping the signal away from unecessary conversions can certainly help.

Cheers,

Gary