Has anyone done a comparison of Mitsubishi HC5000 vs. JVC RS-1?

The guys at AVS and cineforhome have seen both...I'm sure there are some others - although I think both were pre-production units. Looks for comparisons of the two, in addition to the Sony Pearl, to be flooding the forums in the next 6 weeks or so as the production models of the RS1 start shipping. Don't worry...in the next two months you'll have plenty of comparisons to look at.

The JVC has 10x the native contrast of the Mistubishi.

Can these be compared?

Actually Cine4Home measured the HC5000 at 720:1 with the iris off and D65, which is approximately 20x less native contrast than they measured on the HD1 at D65. I think it is fair to say that this difference should be more than a little obvious in most viewing environments.

You would think so but the difference is actually quite minor in real-world viewing conditions.

With Dynamic Iris setting 1 on the HC5000 (which is extremely hard to see working) I get something like 4500 to 1.

Our family's Sony D50Q CRT projector is rated at something like 20,000 to 1. In a fairly dim room (but not completely dark) the differences are extremely minor at best compared to the Mitsu HC5000.

What I've found is that way too much time is spent by folks haggling over whose CR is better, when what really matters are things like projector noise, brightness, ergonomics, SDE, DLP fatigue, throw ratios and lens shift capabilities.

I'm in a rather unique position to comment on this, as I have at my disposal both old world CRT technology (whose native CR is still the king) and the newer fixed panel display HC5000. I doubt most folks who rave at pre-production JVC specs can do such a comparison.

Even if the JVC turns out to be the equal to the Mitsu 5000 in all things except native CR and brightness, no way would I spend another $2k to $3k, unless my screen size and light control made the extra lumens a must.

Brian

For what its worth, I saw both units at Cedia and while the 5000 threw a very nice picture, the RS1 was a notch above and easily worth the small premium (if you got in on the pre-buy). The difference in native contrast is insane as has already been mentioned, no DI (and all the issues that come with it) which is HUGE, brighter, etc...Not to mention many people have commented on the noticable DI with the 5000 in ANY mode which would be very concerning to me. Why deal with this when you have the RS1 which will produce 3-4 times the CR of the 5000 all without a DI!

They are both nice units, but the RS1 will clearly be the better projector, and definately worth the extra money even without the prebuy price.

IIRC the JVC (pre-buy) was only $500. more than the Mitsui 5000.

If the JVC is available to purchase for under $5K then that would change things a bit.

Regardless, my two main points were:
1) The difference between 5,000 and 15,000 CR is extremely small, especially if you cannot get total darkness in your viewing area. I think quite a few folks are unaware of this.
2) The DI setting I use is virtually undetectable. Really a non-issue.

Hey, if Mitsubishi USA keeps giving me a hard time on replacing my unit I may give the JVC a second look!

Whenever the DI is clamping down, the entire scene will become darker. For this reason, a non-DI equipped projector with the same maximum light output as a DI equipped projector will appear brighter in the vast majority of scenes, and the difference will be more apparent as the DI used becomes more aggressive. This is one of the things I do not like about a DI. Native contrast is always better than DI contrast, and in the case of the RS1 and HC5000, the RS1 has several-fold greater on-off contrast without a DI as compared to the HC5000 with the DI enabled.

With all due respect you are still missing my main point: how much of a difference will that 7-fold (your numbers not mine) increase get you in (this is critical) a real-world viewing environment?

In my 10+ years experience owning front projection systems the answer is: not much at all. Certainly not enough to warrant the almost fanatical devotion some folks have to this still unreleased product. I'll tell you this, 700 ANSI lumens probably by itself makes this unit a non-starter for me.

This is how my most important to least important list goes based on experience:
1) Lack of SDE
1a) Warrenty
2) Native brightness
3) Picture sharpness
4) Native resolution
5) Setup flexibility (lens shift, throw ratio)
6) Noise
7) CR
8) Physical size
9) Ergonomics


Although I don't want to get off topic, that other thread about 200 to 1 CR being all that is needed is not too far off base.

If you have no ambient light to deal with, a several-fold increase in contrast is quite noticeable.

The 700 lumen rating of the RS1 is a true measured value that exceeds the HC5000. 700 lumens at D65 is quite bright and I would expect that this will result in a brighter projector than a DI equipped projector that measures 1000 lumens in almost all scenes. You need to go to a 3 chip DLP projector to get greater light output, but then you are paying way more money and getting lower contrast.

The problem is, virtually no one has a viewing environment with a complete absence of ambient light.

Two reasons:
1) Physically it is almost impossible to block all ambient light.
2) Most folks cannot (or don't want to) be in a room without some kind of illumination (other than the projector of course). It is something I have personally experienced, along with the 100+ folks who have been in my basement theater. That's why movie theaters dim their light ut never shut them off completely.

That is why I speak frequently of "real world" viewing. That is also why I put CR so far down on my importance list.

I think I've made my point here, so I'll leave it at that.

My final word is that after owning 3 different front projection systems, as well as auditioning probably 100+ more over 10-15 years, my first rule of projection buying (and sweating published specs) is this:

The only facts I believe about the overall quality of a front projection system is what my eyes tell me.

Briandx has a good point that the flavour-of-the-month-brigade seem to miss.

The fantastic native contrast of the RS1 DOES NOT translate into proportionately better ANSI contrast.

The RS1 may well turn out to be the best digital yet (well, until next week?) but lack of DI is just a means to an end. Its the resuilts that count, and if another PJ can achieve similar ANSI and ONOFF contrast using DI that doesn't draw too much attention to itself, then that would be a legitimate and comparable solution.

BR, Nick

A DI relies on brightness compression to do its work. This will cause a certain degree of loss of high level detail, and will rob the image of brightness. There is no way around this except to ditch the DI.

To be honest, I never noticed the automatic iris working on my old Panny AE700.

But I do see it in the HC5000. Maybe it is just the implementation so I wouldn't write DI off completely.

I do like the concept of native high contrast definitely, but in my current projector shelf, the Mitsubishi and other LCD projectors is about the biggest size I can accomodate.

Wrong. If you do a bit of research, you will find that 15000:1 No DI does NOT = 15000:1 with DI. Brightness compression is just one disadvantage. All else being equal the non DI projector will appear brighter with more punch and better detail in any mixed scene, and even in non mixed scenes to some degree.

"Whenever the DI is clamping down, the entire scene will become darker. For this reason, a non-DI equipped projector with the same maximum light output as a DI equipped projector will appear brighter in the vast majority of scenes,"

Is that data based on analysis of the max IRE of various scenes, or are you shooting from the hip?

20 IRE approximates the majority of scenes in movies. At this light leve, the DI has clamped down to varying degrees depending on the DI used. This means that the overall light output of the scene has been lowered which makes it less bright than if the DI were disabled. Try pausing various scenes while watching a movies and disabling or enabling the DI to see this effect. In predominantly bright scenes, you are unlikely to see any difference. In mixed APL scenes that have a large dark element to them, the difference should be noticeable and perhaps very obvious depending on how aggressive the DI is.

Some very closed minds here.

If the RS1 does not suffer from brightness compression, then why is it's ANSI contrast "only" 350:1?

I might get one, so I'm not knocking it, but I just don't believe the benefit is night-and-day / order-of-magnitude improvement like folks seem to think it is.

regards, Nick

Well thankfully the RS1 will be in several greedy hands (including mines) very soon now, so we can actually talk about what it does from personal experience. Based on all of the previews and hands on reports that I've read (and I've read them all) the RS1 does in fact appear to be at a clearly higher level of performance than what we have become accustomed to.

That's exactly my point Nick.

The JVC product may indeed turn out to be better overall compared to its 1080p competition, but that judgement should be based on all of the factors I've mentioned, not just one aspect.

Also, the point that somehow projectors with DI don't have the same punch as those that don't is pure poppycock, at least that what my eyes tell me.

To illustrate my point, if you took just the specs from both of my projectors (Sony D50Q, Mitsubishi 5000) you would conclude that except for native resolution (720p+ vs. 1080p) the Sony would win in a head to head competition. After all, the Sony has ten-fold better CR, no DI, no SDE, etc.). If you did, you would be wrong.

I've done the comparison and overall the Mitsubishi's picture is better.

That's why I'm always bemused by these types of threads.

Just based on the specs, the reviews I've read from respected people who HAVE seen the RS1 (as well as the 5000), and the $500 price difference (even if it were a $1500 price difference)... There's no question in my mind which way I'd go!!!

The only thing I'd really look into if I were the thread starter would be if the RS1 will be able to handle the 2.35 stretch if that's a major concern. Other than that, the RS1 seems like a very easy choice.

Wet1: Just one quick cautionary note; I once almost bought a projector sight unseen that had received several very positive reviews by "respected" reviewers.

When I had a chance to check it out I absolutely hated the picture. Seemed that the reviewers were not bothered by SDE! I learned that everyone's visual acuity is different.

After that near fiasco I made a rule that I would NEVER EVER spend a significant amount of money on a piece of video equipment unless I had personally seen it for myself...

I don't agree with this, we had a fair in Stockholm and most of the time i was in charge of the 1080p room where we had HC5000, Sharp 20k Panny 1000 and Pearl all on HDDVD.

Yes this room was very good as it had dark walls etc.

Any how the difference in contrast between the HC5000 and the Sharp was gigantic, yes people laughed when we did fast A/B switches.

The mitsu and panny reps came in time to time and insitied that we remove the Sharp from the room.

Ok that was in a good room.

I have laso seen the Sharp against other PJ in a not so good room, meaning light color walls etc. a typical living room, and still it destroyed the LCD in the contrast department and even many DLP:s.

And this is a PJ with 7000:1 ONOFF and 800:1 ANSI.

So yes if you are watching movies with the lights on, sure that will destroy much of any contrast, but if you can at least turn of the lights so that there is no ambient light source then the difference in contrast will be very noticeable. And i think many people have the possibility to make sure that no lights are on when they watch a movie.

And for the second point, yes the DI is very undetecteble on the HC5000, it doesn't seem to do any significant job improving contrast IMO.

Dont get me wrong the HC5000 is a great PJ, extremely sharp, however it has very poor contrast, which is a shame.

I dont know what Mitsu did wrong with the D6 chip, i have measured the new Panny AE1000 to 1500:1 native, and that is in a room where the Sharp measured 5000:1, meaning there where some ambient light (it was a job I did for a store).

So i am very sure that the panny can reach near 2000:1 native in a better room, and the panny had clearly better depth then the HC5000, however not as sharp.

I would have easily chosen the panny over the HC5000, also the new Epson seems to have reached a high native contrast. I dont know why Mitsu failed in this.

I was actually very impressed with the Panny, it was on pair with the Pearl in terms of visible contrast, and it held its own against the Benq 10000.

I agree to a certain point. I also got bit by SDE when I bought a Sharp LCD PJ sight unseen (1995?) and was told it was way better than older versions in this regard. I still have this PJ kicking around and I still am bothered be the SDE.

Regardless, of all the things I'm concerned about (SDE, contrast, noise, accurate color reproduction, brightness...) I very confident this PJ will satisfy me based on price and early reviews I've read from these respected people.

One that note, I also recently bought both a Pan AX100 and a Mits HD1000U for a cheap BR PJ. I bought both PJs sight unseen based on respected reviews with the intention of returning one. I have to say, I didn't expect either to be as impressive as they both were, even though they each received rave reviews. In the end, I kept the HD1000U as I thought it offered an equal (or even slightly better) picture at half the cost. Both are stunning IMO for the price. With that said, I'm very confident I'll be more than satisfied with the RS1 which should be superior in just about every way other aspect, other than brightness. And since I'll only be shooting ~96" image in a light controlled room with the RS1, I suspect I'll be more than happy with the choice. And if I'm not... it's easy enough to return it.

Given the specs, reviews, and price, I never once really even considered the HC5000. Perhaps this was foolish, but in the end I'm sure I'll be more than satisfied.

You may want to read that thread again...

The debate centers around how much C/R the eye can discern at a single instant, aside from from the fluctuations of the iris of the eye, and what is taken in when looking around...nobody in there is actually saying that 200/1 is all that is needed in a display...far from it. Actually, all parties appear to be in agreement that no projector is currently able to deliver sufficient C/R to accurately represent reality when viewed, and displays with greater C/R abilities are still needed.

Regards.

I am currently using the AX100 which I will be replacing with the RS1. I have calibrated the AX100 in both Cinema 1 and Normal modes. Out of the box, Normal mode is quite a bit brighter, however, post-calibration it is of comparable brightness to the Cinema 1 mode. What this means is that the RS1 should be comparable in brightness to the AX100 provided that the latter is calibrated to D65. If anything the RS1 should be brighter in most scenes given the fact that there will be no DI brightness compression.