Dual Format Disc Player Announced - Page 5

Clearly, Sony allowing their blu-ray technology to be packaged along with the competions (HD DVD) shows that they (Sony) are VERY VERY NERVOUS about losing this war in the near future. No other reason for them to do it. What it means down the road in regards to Blu Ray/HD DVD video production & sales is any body's guess, but clearly Sony has (or at least feels they have) the proverbial gun to their heads right now. We'll see!

Like may here, i was just about to order the XA2 or A2, but may hold off for a while.

I'm not a fan of this situation. Without a clear, decisive winner both formats are destined to spend the next few years collecting dust beside the other "life support-assisted" formats out there (read: DVD-Audio and SACD being kept "alive" with dual format players) while we wait for the next format.

The big question will be whether the industry learns from this debacle and only releases one format next time. Hopefully, Sony will be a footnote in the history books by then...that will almost guarantee there wouldn't be a split since it seems that Sony is always behind all these "similar but just enough different that we can collect license fees" formats of theirs.

Few people cared about DVD-A or SACD at their release. There just isn't a market for "HD" audio. However, there is definitely a market for HD video.

While DVD will remain king for quite some time, it is misleading to compare HD DVD and Blu-ray to DVD-A and SACD. The situation is very, very different.



Well, they never learned from the DVD-RAM 2.6, DVD-RAM 4.7, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL debacle...

Yes, this at least seems to be great news for us in that we will be more future proofed and studios will be free to release anyway they want.

Art

Which is exactly why I'm hoping next time around that Sony is a footnote in the history books (wasn't the DVD +/- their doing, too?).

I disagree that the failure of SACD and DVD-A had anything to do with competing formats. If that were true, VHS should have failed because it had to compete against Beta. The reason SACD and DVD-A failed is because VERY few people thought they offered a worthwhile benefit. If people think the HD formats are a worthwhile improvement over DVD, they will succeed. If they don't, they won't. It's as simple as that.

How do you expect it to stack up against the XA2 which you rate very highly? Obviously thats hard to tell but what are your feelings on this? Thanks

I could be wrong, but would it not make sense that Studios now produce the cheapest possible HD version of movies if comdos catch on? I mean im sure a studio like fox was ok paying more to make a BD disc over a HD DVD disc because fox saw the benefit if BD won.

Well BD didnt win. HD DVD didnt win. What would hold back a sutdio from gavitating to the cheapest format to make?

My question would be how much of a standard HD-DVD disk's capacity does an average film take up? If the average film is already pushing 80% or more of an HD-DVD disk (this is just conjecture as I have no idea), then i can see why studios would still pick BD for some films if the film is a really long.

Another thought is that it would be kind of cool to purchase one BD that contains an entire HD series. For exmple, one disk that contains National Lampoons Vacation, European vacation, vegas vacation and christmas vacation.

Why could the same not be said about BD and again, why does the PS3 play into this equation at all?

Why would consumers reject both? Your "all or nothing" mentality is silly.

No opinion is silly. It's just opinion. I agree with Josh. The longer you keep both formats around the longer things linger and the longer confusion sticks around. Guys like my dad who is a J6P isn't going to pay extra for "more formats" he just wants things simple. He actually has a life and movies are not a big deal. Do you think guys like this want to have to make a choice of what format to buy their movie in? A dual format player is only for AVS nerds to salivate over because now we can have both formats with one player, but it does nothing to solve the fact that there are still two formats. I would MUCH rather have HD-DVD win tomorrow and Blu-ray to throw in the towel than for both formats to stick around indefinetly.

Because the PS3 will always only be able to play Blu-ray movies. Why would Universal stay exclusive to the format with less space for their content, less potential security for piracy, and less marketshare given that all standalone players would play Blu-ray and given they would be excluding the entire PS3 market? By this time would they really be saving that much more in manufacturing costs than it would cost them in sales and headaches?

"As HD DVD dies"? How about as "BR dies". Where's your scenario for that? You've covered all the others. The comments you make above are not startling for the BR crowd. In fact it was comments much like this that turned me off to BR before it was ever released. The BR crowd 'knew everything'. It was soooo superior. The facts revealed that not to be the case, in fact it was quite (and still is) the oppositve. But yet guys like you continue to make your comments. Unreal.

Robert-

I just posted this exact same line of reasoning in the software forum. The key really is the packaging. They two groups need to get together and make standard packaging. here's exactly what I wrote:

The combo player is THE best thing to happen to this format. It gives the greatest opportunity for a compromise by the two camps and therefore only one "official" format. The problem with the original deals were you either had to pick Blu-ray or HD-DVDs physical format and therefore only one set of people got checks when players were made. With combo players, BOTH people get checks so that makes everyone happy. (except consumers...)

For studios, you get the best of both worlds. You need only 25gigs of space for a good encode? Great, go with the cheaper HD-DVD. Got a 4 hour movie with extras? Go with the 50gig Blu-ray disc. All you need is for the packaging on BOTH to be the same and then you've got yourself a standard. Everyone makes money, removes the cofusion from the marketplace and you are all set.

Of course, the PS3 could hold this up. I'm sure it's easy enough to make a combo drive addon for the Xbox 360.

Chris

The price should be below $1300, simply because $500 (A2) + $800 (Sammy) = $1300. Else, the cheapest solution is to buy both individual drives.

Assuming that the quality of the player is good.

My take on the format war is that at prices between $500 and ~$1000 it will help Blu-ray not die, as it is cheaper and allow people would have bought an HD DVD player also get the benefit of playing blu-ray disks, thus increasing Blu-ray sales and promoting the format.

Above $1000, it will help HD DVD, these people would buy a blu-ray machine, but with the dual format they will be able to get HD DVD for free, and thus they would buy HD DVDs, espcailly when if these disks are cheaper or better quality.

In the long run, assuming that most players are dual format, it would mean, that neither studio would have incentive to be format neutral, as they would simply be producting 2 copies that each have the same target audience.

I thus don't think that the optimal market can take both players that are format netrual and studios that are format neutral nor disks that are format neutral.

As to the argument that the studios will go the format that is cheaper to produce, I would argue that if they had thought like that, every studio would already be HD DVD.

In conclusion, I would guess that if the dual format players become dominant, the format neutral studios would pick a side, and we would have high def movies and we wouldn't care what format the movie was produced on.



Let the attacks of my hypothesis begin.

Adam

Wanna sell it if you think it sucks?

I think LG players are great, play everything, have underrated PQ, never a problem with my 418. also one of the best letterboxing removing zoom's in the dvd biz.

If LG makes this new player a "play's it all" i'll be in line.

One big problem is LG doesnt offer many firmware upgrades, we have to unofficially use other players firmware, where this would be great is if Oppo would get off there ass and build one....now were talking!

Instead of lousy upconverting ********!

yoyoniner,

your comments about Universal dont make sense to me. Nothing you say is new, given the advent of a dual format player. HD DVD has always had less space, and yet they chose to be exclusive, HD has always been "less" secure, and yet they chose HD DVD, and so forth.

Why would universal remain exlusive - well, the discs are cheaper to make and I bet they have a higher profit margin. They are easier to make, etc.

The Dual format player doesnt do anything for Studio alliances, but it is a bit of bad news for BD - now there is at least one other hardware manufacturer to choose from. Also, LG must see something in the HD DVD market to make a combo player.

This doesnt confuse the issue for people, it actually makes things simpler. You can now buy any movie you want, and drop it in the player and it will play. No confusion.

Wouldn't this really depend on the PS3 Blu Ray attach rate and prevalence of the dual format player?

A studio would either choose to produce both formats or choose the 1 format that can reach the most players. If a dual format player is cheap enough then it could become the norm. What we do not know is how many of the PS3s sold will be used for Blu Ray?

The bottom line is that a dual player is great for early adopters. For everyone else it will prolong the war because Sony is entrenched and will not abandon the PS3 and Blu Ray and studios will continue to stand their ground until one side has the edge or J6P chooses a side or not (dual player). Until the dual player is cheap enough for J6P the war will rage on.

Frankly, I could see the biggest losers being those who own a HD DVD or Blu Ray player then buy a dual player and having their initial player lose the war.

Dual formats for original content just doesn't seem to make sense for distributors and retailers. It seems too expensive from manufacturing to shelf space.

There can only be one. I hope one format dies soon.

I guess what I meant to say is that once HD movies finally gain traction the PS3 is going to represent a very insignificant percentage of HD players, especially once the dual format players fall in price to that of (or below) a PS3, and given the price of a PS3, I don't think it would be crazy to think that will happen within a year or two. By that time I am sure that most households that have a PS3 will also have a standalone dual format player much like most households that had a PS2 also had a DVD player when the prices fell to the same level of a PS2.

Personally I just don't see the gaming market really making much of a difference in deciding anything.

4 times more likely would assume that each switch was independent.

For example, I have 4 TVs and you have 1 and we live near each other. The likelyhood that I can watch TV and you cannot because of a broken TV is 1/4 of what it would be for you.

However, if a lighting strike knocks out the power, you and me both have the same probablity of watching TV.

Adam

Gosh, as much as Art contributes to this forum (12K posts), is helpful, knowledgable and has a super HT, I disagree that this is helpful - at least to the long term success of hidef dvd. First we have two formats with two different pieces of hw , then we add both formats to one disk, then we add one player that can play both formats. I can see where the whole thing is going to be too confusing to the critical mass of buyers. Too many combinations of software and hardware. Just think of your average dvd consumer trying to stick a dual format disk in a combo player and then configuring the setup menu for each format, and then trying to get the sound to work. Depending on whether they have a disk in BD, HD or True format they have different interfaces to navigate too. They couldn't do much more to make hidef dvd fail than create a display that was format specific - oops, I shouldn't have said that! Here comes the Panny ph50px60uBD and ph50px60uHD and ph50px60uTotal CES announcement!

Your 'hypothesis' assumes that HD DVD players will come to a screeching halt. Not necessarily a good hypothesis any more than assuming BR players would do the same. I just don't think you're showing much objectivity.

I will be very interrested to see what the future holds for the single format player manufacturers. Will Sony, Toshiba, and Samsung just cease to make players? Will they be forced to relinquish and also produce a dual format player? I just can't see, especially for the more expensive BD players, the economic feasibility of continued production on a single format player after this.

Chris-

What do you think about J6P? I think he is important in the "war." IMO, the war is prolonged because it is unlikely he will have the ability to buy a dual format player for quite some time and the HD video market needs him to get off the sofa and choose a format.

Are you arguing that the studios will make two formats of each title? Are you saying that single format players will not survive and all consumers will choose the dual format player at some point?

I think your idea is an interesting one but I think as you said, the PS3 could hold things up. In fact I think it really makes things cloudy since even with a 10% attach rate the number of PS3s used as Blu Ray players could get pretty large and difficult to ignore.

The dual format player pricing is key here. If it could get to a reasonable price and high volume before the PS3 really takes off then Blu Ray could die. Think about it, if we assume PQ and AQ are on par for all the players, would anyone really buy a PS3 or standalone Blu Ray player if a dual format player was only a few hundred more?

Sony got lucky because if LG made this announcement two months ago with a price of about $1000 for the dual format player, I would still be on the sidelines for another year and not the current owner of a PS3. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Have you ever read his posts before?

I disagree with your assumption that "HD DVD needs additional support". It would be nice but it's apparently not essential. From everything I've read, it's doing better than BR despite less support from studios. For me having Universal as the exclusive is far far more important than having Disney or Lionsgate. I've got a kid in college and Disney has little interest for me.

I don't understand why you would assume that.

If all standalone players play both formats that completely changes the ballgame. There is no reason to release in both formats then long term... it only makes sense then for the studio to release in the format that has the greatest userbase, and that no doubt will be Blu-ray given a scenario where standalone universal players are ubiquitous and therefore all play Blu-ray discs, and given that every PS3 will only play Blu-ray movies indefinetly. If universal players become ubiquitous, are you saying that by this time manufacturing costs are that much different between HD-DVD and Blu-ray that it is worth sacrificing the potential sales of the entire PS3 market by going with HD-DVD only releases (in addition to sacrificing 20GB of space per disc for your content, and what by this time may very well be added copy security)?

Universals will likely not be the dominant format. Consumer will go with what is cheap and single platform players will still be the price leaders.