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Here's How I See the Two New Annoucements

post #1 of 92
Thread Starter 
In the past 24 Hours we have learned that LG will release a Dual-Format player and the Warner Brothers will release a Dual-Format disc. Here's how I see each of these events effecting this format war.

I feel the dual-format disc actually could benefit HD-DVD as it could create pressure for some of the Blu-ray exclusive studios to go down the same path. I am not sure it will or not, but it could. How expensive will these be though? It seems as though they could be a technical nightmare to produce.

Does this tell us that WB is not seeing either side excel in sales and thus a Dual-Format disc is the way to go? Does this leave the possiblilty for Blu-ray to surpass HD-DVD in WB sales once WB parity is reached?

I feel the Dual-Format player definately benefits Blu-ray more. Why? If the Dual-Format player is a success this puts absolutely no pressure on the Blu-ray exclusive studios to go neutral or switch. I beleive the studios would stay the course of their current plan.

Thoughts?

~Josh
post #2 of 92
I agree Josh.

I wonder how the dual format player will work with the dual format disc? How will it know which layer to play?
post #3 of 92
I think dual format discs only benefit non exclusive studios, they only have to produce and sell one product. Dual format players benefits HD-DVD because if everyone had them, producing more expensive Blu-Ray discs would be pointless.
post #4 of 92
dual something-or-others are unavoidable. I personally don't see the dual-disc thing working unless it is a standard that all studios adopt. Otherwise it will just be another confusing format with likely flaws - the studios still haven't perfected their single-format discs yet.
post #5 of 92
I hope the adoption of dual format players does not kill both formats like DVD-A and SACD were killed. If neither format is heavily adopted and we have a stale mate due to dual format players or dual format discs both formats may linger in a niche status as general consumer will be confused.

I currently support HD-DVD but would rather have BLU-RAY win than SD-DVD continue on.
If neither format wins we ALL lose.
post #6 of 92
LG is no more BD exclusive.
post #7 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielTS View Post

LG is no more BD exclusive.

They never were, they originally planned to make both players.
post #8 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatboy77 View Post

I feel the Dual-Format player definately benefits Blu-ray more. Why? If the Dual-Format player is a success this puts absolutely no pressure on the Blu-ray exclusive studios to go neutral or switch. I beleive the studios would stay the course of their current plan.

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this comment specifically - as I have been thinking the same myself since I first read the LG dual player announcement at 4AM this morning.

None of the BD studios - even Lion's Gate - have ever really shown any sign of wanting to go neutral. In fact, we've all read statements now from Lion's Gate, Disney, and Fox each - all specifically saying that BD is their choice, is their answer, is their hope - despite all of HD DVDs success. Sure, one or two of the execs also said vague, uninspiring comments like "well, we won't rule out that we will NEVER produce for HD DVD" but c'mon really - is that any kind of endorsement at all?

With dual format players looming - the only reason for an exclusive BD studio to go neutral (and again I think - even Lion's Gate! - damn! - I'm thinking we were SO CLOSE to getting them...!) would be if they suddenly wake up, then look at HD DVD and have some amazing "come to Jesus" moment where magically HD DVD looks SOOOO much better than BD that they will now happily reverse ALL their months/years of planning for BD solidarity, just to be able to release on two formats at the serious extra expense of neutral production.

This hurts my feelings since I, personally, am more satisfied with HD DVD over every bulletpont BD has. I'd like to see Lion's Gate re-do their so-so Terminator 2 BD release with a new HD DVD release up to the standard of what HD DVD has offered. You know, VC-1, PiP, and a hefty amount of extras! - Is that impossible now?

The format war suddenly got even more crazy and twice as unpredictable.
post #9 of 92
If dual players really take off, and that's a big if, studios will eventually gravitate to which ever format is the cheapest and easiest to make, giving the highest profits. Loyalty and endorsments will mean nothing.
Period.
I agree with others, the dual discs will only make things worse.
J
post #10 of 92
The two announcements are complementary.

Problem: Consumers do not know what platform to buy into

Solution: Universal players will ensure %100 access to existing and future content

Problem: Neutral studios have SKU management issues and retail stores suffer from the same problem

Solution: Total HD allows one SKU to be delivered to cover 3 distinct platforms for HD playback. Marketing cost are reduced as well.

I see Universals as beneficial to consumers but they still don't help the respective formats other than more potential sales.

I see Total HD as a way to mitigate the SKU issue and as a smart way to go neutral for studios on the fence. Costs can be contained and the benefits could outweigh most of the detriments.

These two announcements really change the landcape. They force vendors and studios to open up and appeal to the holistic HD landscape. I think the studios will realize this war and victory in it is untenable. The only thing they are really fighting for are profits and keeping multiple SKU and the marketing and all saps any real profits from being obtained.
post #11 of 92
LG dual format player doesnt help anything and will cost alot of money
post #12 of 92
How many here look for LG products fortheir theatter??

Not me they are in the same league as RCA and Sanyo. Lo-Fi.

Great in theory but dual players will be a quick flash in the pan and quite expensive.
post #13 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatboy77 View Post

In the past 24 Hours we have learned that LG will release a Dual-Format player and the Warner Brothers will release a Dual-Format disc. Here's how I see each of these events effecting this format war.

I feel the dual-format disc actually could benefit HD-DVD as it could create pressure for some of the Blu-ray exclusive studios to go down the same path. I am not sure it will or not, but it could. How expensive will these be though? It seems as though they could be a technical nightmare to produce.

I agree that a combo BD/HD DVD will benefit HD DVD more. In addition, this will likely be a dual-layered HD DVD since they're so easy to produce, but a single layer BD to keep costs down. As a result, the same transfer will be on each side and will both be encoded in VC-1 and not MPEG2, much to the chagrin of Sony. It would also definitely pressure studios like Disney and Fox to release discs as well to support both formats. To the studios, this translates into increased revenue.

Quote:
Does this tell us that WB is not seeing either side excel in sales and thus a Dual-Format disc is the way to go? Does this leave the possiblilty for Blu-ray to surpass HD-DVD in WB sales once WB parity is reached?

The only reason for WB to take this route is because of money, and they want to maximize revenue. It will cost less to produce one disc instead of both an HD DVD and Blu-Ray. If they stick to this strategy the argument of which format is selling more will be moot. It will be transparent in the eyes of Warner since sales will reflect one disc, instead of individual discs. There would be no such thing as Blu-Ray surpassing HD DVD or vice versa as far as Warner is concerned.

Quote:
I feel the Dual-Format player definately benefits Blu-ray more. Why? If the Dual-Format player is a success this puts absolutely no pressure on the Blu-ray exclusive studios to go neutral or switch. I beleive the studios would stay the course of their current plan.

Faulty logic. Sales of dual format players have yet to be proven. They are essentially zero, and we do not know when (if ever) the player will be introduced to market, how much it will cost, and how many will be sold. Moreoever, there is a numerous base of HD DVD-only players installed, which is growing daily. Warner's TotalHD disc will be much more appealing to studios than a dual format player if the disc proves to be a success.
post #14 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How many here look for LG products fortheir theatter??

Not me they are in the same league as RCA and Sanyo. Lo-Fi.

Great in theory but dual players will be a quick flash in the pan and quite expensive.

No Goldstar in my home ever...not even a vcr. They can change the name, but it's still Goldstar in my book.
post #15 of 92
We need to know more about the dual format disk. Does it not still require the proper equipment to produce both versions of the movies? I can see the benefit to the studios that already have the ability to do both. Will any other studios that are exclusive switch to using this disk? Would they not have to also upgrade to create the other format therefore adding cost to production? The real question is which studios would be willing to use it besides Warner?


Same goes for the LG player. What will be the price range and quality? Will it be cheaper than most stand-alone Blu-ray players? Will there be cheaper HD-DVD players announced that will sway the average consumer? Which other manufacturers are going to make competeing dual format players?

There simply is to many unknowns at this point.
post #16 of 92
I don't think either announcement really changes anything much at the moment, unless we've been led to believe wrongly about some of the reasons the studios have chosen their respective formats. A hybrid disc effectively nullifies BD+ and possibly BD50, depending on the specs, so why would Fox utilise them if they felt they were still less protected due to the hd-dvd layer? If they were BD25 layers, does that make the need for BD50 a myth?I think we can all agree that HD30 is necessary so anythimg less than that for the hd-dvd layer is pointless.

As for the universal player, it would have to be a serious uber player at a readily affordable price to have much of an effect at the moment. Combining standalaones, PS3 and Xbox add-ons, there must be over a million players already in households with capabilty for one of the other. Each of those households needs only an investment of $499 for a PS3 or HD-A2 to buy into the other format. For new buyers, it's an option but i doubt the price will appeal to the general consumer for a while.

I'd say it's business as usual unless the studios are contemplating changes for other reasons.
post #17 of 92
Has LG announced MSRP? IMHO, if cheap enough (<$399?), even if low-quality or practically disposable, dual-format HD+BR players like LG will be essential for long-term success of either/both HD/BR formats.

Dedicated players will die off. Why buy a dedicated HDDVD or dedicated BR player when/if you can buy a HDDVD/BD player?

Quality combo units will become available soon enough. Until then, the *phile market can still use a pair of higher-quality non-LG dedicated players.

But let the mass market have a low-cost combo player. IMHO, having a $199 combo player available in every WalMart/BB/CC by next Christmas is essential for both HDDVD and BR... essential for enabling all of us to enjoy every title in HD.

Dual-format media is just plain stupid, especially if it increases the per disc cost by $10. The per disc cost must get <$20 ASAP for mass market viability.

Next step, make all new-releases as SD+HD discs and do not release any SD-only DVDs. Have a single disc on the shelf... don't allow the mass market to get confused. Manufacture one $20 disc... if you have SD, it'll play SD. When/If you get a HD player and a HD TV, it'll play HD.
post #18 of 92
This war would be over tomorrow, TOMORROW, if WB did 2 things:

1) Stopped making DVDs, and only made combos, bringing the price down to $19.99.

2) Redacted support for BD.

That's it folks, cue the fat lady, BD is D.E.A.D. DEAD!
post #19 of 92
Warner releasing the dual HD/BD disc will only hurt their movie sales, since it will be priced up around combo discs. $35 discs are rental discs for most, not discs you buy--especially since no one has a need for the movie in both formats.

Due to the fact that this will contribute to less discs being sold, it will send the message that the market is not ready for HD on a disc yet. Exactly the message we don't want sent.

Dave
post #20 of 92
Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading about Warner's dual format disk a while back and aren't they limited to one layer of each format on the disk meaning one 25GB layer for Blu-Ray and one 15GB layer for HD DVD. That seems like it could affect PQ real quick. I don't think Kong would look as good on a 15GB single layer HD DVD disk. Dual format player sounds more promising to me if that is the case.
post #21 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylanneild View Post

Warner's Total HD technology allows both DVD and BD (not just BD and HD-DVD) as per their patent application, iirc.

To be fair, if warner started making all their discs BD/DVD 'dual discs' and stopped making HD-DVD tomorrow, HD-DVD would be 'D.E.A.D' as you say, format war over.

Warner is the most important studio, imho. Their loss would kill either format almost right away.

Since WB owns patents in HD DVD, but not BD, I don't think that's very likely.
post #22 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading about Warner's dual format disk a while back and aren't they limited to one layer of each format on the disk meaning one 25GB layer for Blu-Ray and one 15GB layer for HD DVD. That seems like it could affect PQ real quick. I don't think Kong would look as good on a 15GB single layer HD DVD disk. Dual format player sounds more promising to me if that is the case.

I believe they are sacrificing the DVD layer in order to have a dual layered HD DVD.
post #23 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Faulty logic. Sales of dual format players have yet to be proven. They are essentially zero, and we do not know when (if ever) the player will be introduced to market, how much it will cost, and how many will be sold. Moreoever, there is a numerous base of HD DVD-only players installed, which is growing daily. Warner's TotalHD disc will be much more appealing to studios than a dual format player if the disc proves to be a success.

Fualty Logic? Isn't most of your opinion based on the level of success/failure the Dual-Format disc achieves? I clearly said in the OP that IF the Dual-Format player is successful it would create no pressure for any Blu-ray exclusive company to go neutral or switch.

And some news for you. There is a substantial base of Blu-ray installed as well and growing daily, some estimates have that number at five times the amount of HD-DVD. So why would WB show a preference to HD-DVD?

In conclusion:

The Dual-Format disc is good for the Corporations and bad for the Consumer.

The Dual-Format player is good for the Consumer and Blu-ray and bad for HD-DVD.

~Josh
post #24 of 92
Dual format discs don't make any sense to me unless they cost the same as single format and don't sacrifice things. The dual format player makes more sense but it has a lot of issues to deal with. I can't see it being "affordable" and working properly for a while. Like Jeff said, LG has never made anything that is a "must have" in terms of video gear. We need more content!

larry
post #25 of 92
I don't see it that combo prices hurt as much as people think. Sure it's a general dislike on these forums but the Superman Returns combo was Amazon's #1 seller of the year and topped the hd-dvd sales market data in general for a while. Like it or not, people do buy them. It's perfectly logical to take this data into account and see the hybrids as a potential success. People do buy them.
post #26 of 92
I don't see a benefit of either the Dual player or dual disk. We have to consider the retail outlets and their lack of floor and shelf space. They will not like this and I don't blame them.

The first players are going to be buggy as hell. Just look at first gen players now. To combine the two and expect it to work at a reasonable level and cost is very wishful thinking. Same for the disks.

I prefer the studios going neutral and letting the consumer decide this war. One winner is best for everyone in the long run, I believe.
post #27 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by the blob View Post

I don't see it that combo prices hurt as much as people think. Sure it's a general dislike on these forums but the Superman Returns combo was Amazon's #1 seller of the year and topped the hd-dvd sales market data in general for a while. Like it or not, people do buy them. It's perfectly logical to take this data into account and see the hybrids as a potential success. People do buy them.

Superman Returns sold big because the price was the same as a plain HD-dvd disc. I got it at Wall Mart for $19.95.
post #28 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

Superman Returns sold big because the price was the same as a plain HD-dvd disc. I got it at Wall Mart for $19.95.

Not everywhere though.. most places it was a standard combo price. I pre-ordered mine from Amazon.
post #29 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

Superman Returns sold big because the price was the same as a plain HD-dvd disc. I got it at Wall Mart for $19.95.

Yes but again the post you quoted stated "Amazon" was the source and they've had it for $27.95

I don't think consumers are as wary about pricing on the discs they really like.
post #30 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatboy77 View Post


In conclusion:

The Dual-Format disc is good for the Corporations and bad for the Consumer.


~Josh

Josh,

I am not picking on you, but why do you think this is bad for the consumer? At this point we don't even know the price of these discs. I see this as cost cutting (eventually) for the corporations, but I also see it as a great way to get people into HD movies. It's logical that maybe some family has an Xbox 360 and pick up the add on for the game room and then because they have a dual disc maybe the next time they buy a DVD player they pick up a Blu-Ray player or vice versa or they pick up the LG. I just don't see how anyone could come to such a simple conclusion based on such little information.

MB
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