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The effect of a black GOM screen wall on percieved black level

post #1 of 70
Thread Starter 
It starts with a simple example. If you take a dark gray piece of paper, and hold it up in front of white backdrop, the dark gray piece of paper looks black. Conversely, if you hold that same dark gray piece of paper up to a black backdrop, it looks much brighter by comparison.

Many of us own digital projectors that project a less than optimum black level (read: the dark gray piece of paper), and yet we choose to project this image against a black GOM screen wall (read: the black backdrop).

I've seen people mention this reality from time to time, often in the form of a question regarding its relevance or lack thereof. The most common response is that someone will mention the benefits of reducing light scatter in the room and the improvement that this can make to ANSI contrast (not on/off) and black levels. But I've never seen one single person substantiate the very real effect that the black GOM backdrop has in terms of perceived black levels.

So let me be the first.

I've had the opportunity to watch my Sony Pearl FP in action in a variety of configurations. I project onto a Carada Brilliant White screen, which I have seen mounted to a blue wall, an unfinished false wall with blue and yellow insulation behind it, and now a finished false wall with solid black GOM.

Prior to installing the GOM, I was truly delighted with my black levels. But once I covered that wall in black GOM, the charcoal grey "black level" of my projector looked more like light gray than dark gray, and certainly looked nothing like black.

The funny thing is that the contrast ratio of my projector hasn't changed. In fact, the ANSI contrast may have hedged upward by a few notches due to there being less light scatter in the room. But my blacks just don't appear as black as they did previously, and there's no getting around that.

Make no mistake, the solid black GOM wall looks fantastic when the lights are on. The screen has the illusion of floating in mid air. And when the lights are off, high APL scenes (a sporting event, for example) look even better than before the GOM went up, due to the fact that the screen almost appears to be a window in this otherwise black wall. But in low APL scenes, the lack of a true black is more apparent now than ever before because a perfect reference black is sitting right there next to it, in the form of a black GOM wall.

If I had this to do over again, I might go with a slightly more reflective color behind the screen (a gray perhaps) and make the walls darker.

Guys, you may find this hard to believe, but the presence of the perfect reference black basically makes any adjustment to the projector's black level an excercise in futility. For example, switching from high bulb mode to low bulb mode has the illusion of making the picture less bright without actually lowering the black level. As another example, turning the projector's brightness control all the way down appears to do absolutely nothing to lower the black level -- it simply crushes shadow detail and dulls the image. The same can be said of all the Pearl's fancy iris adjustments. I can see wide variances when it comes to the actual brightness of the image, but that black level just floats around at a shade of gray that is perceived as being fairly constant, no matter what I do, because of the GOM reference black. Prior to installing the GOM, all of these controls clearly had a visual impact on the black level, however slight it might have been.

In fact, I now find that I have the best image with the iris turned off. Brightness is now my best friend. A bright 3 chip DLP would look great against this wall, I'm sure. Of course, a nice CRT projector with a more ideal black level would probably look fantastic as well.

Just for reference, my ceiling is flat black, my walls are a mid-gray, my carpet is black, my seating is burgundy. The room is very dark, and the Pearl has an excellent contrast ratio and good black levels for a digital. The effect I'm seeing is clearly due to the black GOM, since it is the only element in the room that has changed.
post #2 of 70
Very interesting post - thanks for the insight. I'll have to ponder this some more. I haven't had the opportunity to darken my screen wall yet. A similar thing can be said of a screen border, but I'm guessing it's too a lesser degree. (In other words, it's a much more positive experience.)

This may be one of those things where the weakest link in a particular area is called out due to a superior element. The digital projector's black level is so inferior to black GoM, that it's like listening to a bad recording through bad speakers at first; it doesn't sound that bad, until you connect good speakers to it and hear all of the recording's flaws. Perhaps a bad analogy..

I'm interested in other's opinions on this as well.. thanks for posting this.
post #3 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

Very interesting post - thanks for the insight. I'll have to ponder this some more. I haven't had the opportunity to darken my screen wall yet. A similar thing can be said of a screen border, but I'm guessing it's too a lesser degree. (In other words, it's a much more positive experience.)

This may be one of those things where the weakest link in a particular area is called out due to a superior element. The digital projector's black level is so inferior to black GoM, that it's like listening to a bad recording through bad speakers at first; it doesn't sound that bad, until you connect good speakers to it and hear all of the recording's flaws. Perhaps a bad analogy..

I'm interested in other's opinions on this as well.. thanks for posting this.

I think the majority opinion will differ from mine, just based on what I've seen posted elsewhere. But there is no question about what I am seeing.

The black velvet border around the screen itself has never caused me any such negative experience, since it is such a small area compared to the screen and the surrounding wall.

But when the wall is completely black, the digital projector's black level just looks anemic in comparison.

One of the benefits of bias lighting behind RPTVs is that it improves the black level perception (in addition to reducing eye strain). So brightening the wall behind the screen creates the illusion of a deeper black, while darkening the wall creates the illusion of a lighter black.

In a front projection system, things are more complicated because the entire room is much moreso a part of the system, so darkening all of the surfaces of the room does indeed have a positive impact on the real, measured ANSI contrast and the real, measured black floor of the image.

But in my case, perception is more powerful than the actual measurements.
post #4 of 70
Thread Starter 
One more quick thought:

I never really understood the "brighter is better" mentality among projector owners until now. I mean, I could understand that mentality with regard to projectors used in rooms with high ambient light, but in darkly colored, light controlled spaces, that mentality has always been a puzzlement to me.

Not anymore. Since the dark reference black of the GOM wall makes the projector's BL look anemic no matter what, the only percieved improvement must come via brightness increases.

Digital projectors are going to have to get much better at producing a true black with high dynamic range before they can compete with the black wall.
post #5 of 70
So do you think putting a rope light or something similar around the screen border will help with this?

ala


I thought it might be distracting at first, but now that you mention it, the blacks really look deep in this picture. (thank you auburnu008)
post #6 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_0_s View Post

So do you think putting a rope light or something similar around the screen border will help with this?

ala


I thought it might be distracting at first, but now that you mention it, the blacks really look deep in this picture. (thank you auburnu008)

With an RPTV, that is a good solution for more than one reason. 1 reason is eye fatigue. Another is perceived BL.

In an FP system, it's more complicated. A giant screen at a marginal ft.-L doesn't really pose the same issue with regard to eye strain. Plus, You really don't want to add any extra light to the room, and a rope light on the screen wall might be a bit much. And thirdly, unless that rope light is installed very carefully, it might cast reflections on the back of the screen, and it might also color the images on the screen. This would not be my first choice.

I think something as simple as using a gray fabric screen wall instead of a black one might do the trick, providing that the room was "black enough" elsewhere to tame light scatter. In general, darker is better in a dedicated HT.
post #7 of 70
Some calibration disks reccomend mild light behind the image when using a moderately sized television (rp, or crt) to help w/ eye strain and improve percieved black levels (as I think Gremmy mentioned.) and there are some lcd or plasmas that throw colored light behind the screen, I bet that the sample in your picture may seem too bright in person, but something less drastic could be nice. It definately would be fun to play with and not too difficult.

Seems like something to consider for sure.

Good thread,
Brian
post #8 of 70
The picture shown above from this thread is actually a FP system 100" DIY laminate screen, not RPTV. Looks very black indeed.

Great thread as I was considering putting up black GOM over my screen wall this winter.

sds
post #9 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdspga View Post

The picture shown above from this thread is actually a FP system 100" DIY laminate screen, not RPTV.

Wow, I didn't realize that. Very interesting indeed. In the picture, it actually looks like a plasma.

I think if you're going to do something like this, it would make sense to use real bias lighting -- they have bulbs specifically designed to be the right color temperature for this sort of application. Of course, that would be more difficult to install than a rope light, and perhaps too bright as well.
post #10 of 70
You should be able to dim to the appropriate level though, right?
post #11 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

You should be able to dim to the appropriate level though, right?

I'm not sure. I thought most of the proper-temp bias lights were flourescent, and of the style that cannot be dimmed. I could be wrong.
post #12 of 70
Thread Starter 
As a quick follow up, I just finished watching the movie Slither on HD DVD. Man, what a fun and totally gross horror movie. This movie is very low APL for the most part. Unfortunately, I am sad to report that my black levels have never looked so terrible.

This black GOM wall has made my 4K projector look sort of like my friend's cheap 1K projector. It's that bad.

My room is so dark now that I'm really seeing the contrast limits of the projector, especially with that black GOM wall standing as a reference for true black. I think I'm going to try some bias lighting to see if that helps. Unfortunately, the aesthetic of a rope light casting light onto a black GOM wall doesn't sound all that appealing to me.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

But I have to say, after seeing the effect of this firsthand, I am surprised that the group think regarding screen walls is to make them ultra-light-absorbent, considering that most of us are using digitals with less than optimum black levels. And this group think has persisted for how long? Largely unchallenged?

I feel like a voice in the wilderness here.

I also feel like if I yell loud enough, someone professing to be an expert is certainly going to show up in this thread with some scientific, quasi-mathematical explanation for why what I'm seeing is impossible. But I'm hear to tell ya that putting a reference black right next to your projector's charcoal gray is inviting a comparison that your eyes and brain will not be able to ignore, whether or not you are consciously aware of what's going on.

I might re-do my wall in a mid-gray GOM fabric to match my walls, as that will undoubtedly help. I hate to do this, since it was a royal PITA and about 10 hours worth of work trying to cut, stretch and velcro the fabric the first time around. So I'll try the bias lighting first. I guess a theater owner's work is never done.

After seeing how good my projector can look, I just can't leave it this way.
post #13 of 70
I'm curious... so test away!
post #14 of 70
yes, please do. I just got my screen today and I want to know what to do with the screen wall.
post #15 of 70
Must only be an issue with DLP and LCD, the Black GOM looks wonderful on my screen wall. I've always had a CRT currently a Sony G90. It would be intresting to see if a grey or other color on a screen wall for DLP or LCD would make a difference.
post #16 of 70
I was wondering when a CRT guy would chime in. If you can live with the bulk and the tweaks, the solution is clear.
post #17 of 70
Sir I have no tweaking If you have someone like Ken setup up your projector correctly you don't have issues. It's very rare... Yeah the bulk sucks but it's not like I have to take the thing up and down all the time. If you put a winch in the ceiling well thats not an issue either.

I'm intrested in the DLP's they have come along way no doubt, in fact I bet with in 2 years they will equal or pass the g90.
post #18 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg View Post

Must only be an issue with DLP and LCD, the Black GOM looks wonderful on my screen wall. I've always had a CRT currently a Sony G90. It would be intresting to see if a grey or other color on a screen wall for DLP or LCD would make a difference.

I agree that a CRT projector would likely have zero problems, since these things have MUCH higher on/off contrast, and MUCH deeper blacks.

While it is true, according to some well respected reviewers, that many digitals have long surpassed CRTs in terms of sharpness, ANSI contrast, and other key performance indicators, nothing beats the on/off contrast or black level of a CRT.

P.S.

My projector is LCOS, not LCD or DLP. It tends to produce deeper blacks than LCD, but nowhere near the CRT range for sure.
post #19 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

If you can live with the bulk and the tweaks, the solution is clear.

Unfortunately, my room cannot handle the bulk. Every inch of this room is accounted for.
post #20 of 70
gremmy, you could always buy the GoM and throw it on the wall to see if you like it better. The downside is getting rid of it (I'm assuming you can't return something like that), though I'm sure it would get sold eventually on the for sale forum here, or on ebay.

At least you'd know whether it's worth the 10 hrs of work.
post #21 of 70
Selling black GOM if it's in one piece would not be an issue.
post #22 of 70
I'm suggesting that he sell gray GoM if it doesn't meet his expectations once he temporarily hangs it as a proscenium wall.

Though, if he does like it, he could indeed sell the black, though that likely wouldn't be very large pieces.
post #23 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I'm not sure. I thought most of the proper-temp bias lights were flourescent, and of the style that cannot be dimmed. I could be wrong.

Most have the ability to be dimmed physically via a baffle or filters. Some can also be dimmed by the bulb.

See for instance: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm
post #24 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Most have the ability to be dimmed physically via a baffle or filters. Some can also be dimmed by the bulb.

See for instance: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm

Thanks Chris.
post #25 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

I'm suggesting that he sell gray GoM if it doesn't meet his expectations once he temporarily hangs it as a proscenium wall.

Though, if he does like it, he could indeed sell the black, though that likely wouldn't be very large pieces.

Your suggestion is an excellent one. I could probably recover at least 50% of my cost if I don't damage the gray roll while I'm doing my test. If the bias light doesn't work, I'll give it a shot when the tax money comes in.

I could not sell the black. It's small pieces, stapled at one end, velcroed at the other. Not saleable IMHO.
post #26 of 70
Of course, please be sure to share comparison pictures in various flash configurations..
post #27 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

Of course, please be sure to share comparison pictures in various flash configurations..


I was thinking about taking some pictures. I will try. But I do not think I will be able to capture the effect I am seeing, since my camera is nowhere near as sensitive as my eye. In fact, my camera has a tendency to crush blacks, so it might end up being pointless.
post #28 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg View Post

Must only be an issue with DLP and LCD, the Black GOM looks wonderful on my screen wall. I've always had a CRT currently a Sony G90. It would be intresting to see if a grey or other color on a screen wall for DLP or LCD would make a difference.


Yes with a CRT the blacks merge almost without a seam into the velvet border of my screen and the black GOM surrounding that. If you have it ,it shows it off , if you don't it will allow ones eyes to immediately see that true black doesn't exist within the screen real estate.

Art
post #29 of 70
Thread Starter 
After making my best attempts to install a bias light tonight, it is clear to me that it will be impossible without a complete redesign of my false wall, which isn't going to happen.

I tried what I thought would be the easiest approach -- a rope light. The first and most important issue is that even the brightest rope light cannot illuminate a wall of light-absorbing black GOM. Ain't gonna happen. That stuff sucks up light, so the best you can do is create an illuminated border about 2 inches wide. It's not enough.

All of the other obstacles I ran into (and there were several) are incidental in light of the first.
post #30 of 70
Hi,

I have a flat black back wall as you can see. (Painted)
(click to enlarge)
The side speaker hides are covered with black GOM fabric. The color is a shade lighter then the black of the back wall.
(click to enlarge)
The projector is a Panasonic AE900 LCD.
I now have to wonder if I should try the deep blue color that I have on the ceiling on the back wall.
I will have to find some colored paper, or cheap fabric and hang for a temporary trial.

Interesting concept......

Richard
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