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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 486

post #14551 of 17194
I am looking to replace my Crown 402D amp for my 2ch rig. I just can't stand those fans anymore. I tried disconnecting them but the amp will shut down after a few minutes if cranked up.

Anyway, I am really interested in the XPA-2. The power rating is the same 300watts/channel as the Crown, however the XPA-2 is MUCH heavier.

In terms of sound quality, what differences can I expect between the two amps? I called up Emotiva and the guy on the phone seemed to think that the Emotiva will sound better then the Crown pro amp.

Can someone set me straight here who has experienced both?
post #14552 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I am looking to replace my Crown 402D amp for my 2ch rig. I just can't stand those fans anymore. I tried disconnecting them but the amp will shut down after a few minutes if cranked up.

Anyway, I am really interested in the XPA-2. The power rating is the same 300watts/channel as the Crown, however the XPA-2 is MUCH heavier.

In terms of sound quality, what differences can I expect between the two amps? I called up Emotiva and the guy on the phone seemed to think that the Emotiva will sound better then the Crown pro amp.

Can someone set me straight here who has experienced both?

Why don't you replace it with a quieter fan? That's what I did with my behringer pro amp
post #14553 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Why don't you replace it with a quieter fan? That's what I did with my behringer pro amp

Hey Kevin, yes, I have thought about doing that as well. However, now having spoken with Emotiva, and them stating that the XPA-2 will sound better got me thinking. I have read some other feedback that typically pro audio amps lack some of the finesse. They are more of a brute force approach to sound which would make sense in a live sound environment.

But I am not 100% and therefore looking for some guidance...
post #14554 of 17194
^ hey TT clear out your PM's...I tried PM'ing this to you but you're FULL

anyway:

hey there...

I can't speak too much for Emotiva- I'm sure they're great, reliable amps from all that I've read, but I can tell you that I picked up multiple Crown XLS 1500's (300 watts per channel into 8 ohms) and they are dead silent (VERY quiet variable speed fan) and sound terrific...plenty of headroom and low noise floor so far in my experience.

Not perfect aesthetically of course, but I constructed a simple, nice-looking, cabinet in one day to house them (I have 6) and in all modesty, it turned out great.

I got a dealer locally to sell them to me for $279 apiece (again, I bought 6).

And although you'll prolly never find one that cheap, but you can get in the $330-50 area if you look hard enough.

Great amp...at less than half the cost of the xpa 2.

good luck...

James
post #14555 of 17194
I called Emotiva a couple days ago and asked them WHEN the stock would be replaced for the 4U rack ears. Response.... "maybe July" Seems that you would want to have a larger supply of them or maybe a 1:1 ratio of XPA-5s and the stupid rack ears for them!

I guess the good news is that I am not ready to "rack up" my gear yet, but I sure would like to get this 87lb monster out of the box and off the floor of my bedroom and into the theater rack!

...rant over...
post #14556 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

However, now having spoken with Emotiva, and them stating that the XPA-2 will sound better got me thinking.

I have the 3, 2, and 1s and I can't tell any difference in SQ between them.
post #14557 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m1010 View Post

I have the 3, 2, and 1s and I can't tell any difference in SQ between them.

I meant a difference between the Emos and pro audio amps such as the Crown. Thx.
post #14558 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ hey TT clear out your PM's...I tried PM'ing this to you but you're FULL

anyway:

hey there...

I can't speak too much for Emotiva- I'm sure they're great, reliable amps from all that I've read, but I can tell you that I picked up multiple Crown XLS 1500's (300 watts per channel into 8 ohms) and they are dead silent (VERY quiet variable speed fan) and sound terrific...plenty of headroom and low noise floor so far in my experience.

Not perfect aesthetically of course, but I constructed a simple, nice-looking, cabinet in one day to house them (I have 6) and in all modesty, it turned out great.

I got a dealer locally to sell them to me for $279 apiece (again, I bought 6).

And although you'll prolly never find one that cheap, but you can get in the $330-50 area if you look hard enough.

Great amp...at less than half the cost of the xpa 2.

good luck...

James

Thanks for the heads up. Looks like a class D amp. Don't have much experience with those either. Can you hear the fans at all? I sit really close to my amp as it is part of my computer setup.
post #14559 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post


Thanks for the heads up. Looks like a class D amp. Don't have much experience with those either. Can you hear the fans at all? I sit really close to my amp as it is part of my computer setup.

The fan I used onmy behringer is quieter than my computer + servers
post #14560 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post


Thanks for the heads up. Looks like a class D amp. Don't have much experience with those either. Can you hear the fans at all? I sit really close to my amp as it is part of my computer setup.

I've NEVER heard the fans. Ever. I will admit I was a bit hesitant assigning Class D to full(er) range speakers, but I can happily report those fears have been erased. Now, the cabinet I made has a glass front, but I didn't hear them in the week before I made the cabinet, so there you go I guess.

Even the "lower" S/N ratios had me a bit leery but: 1. I have read in multiple arenas that Crown tends to UNDERrate/"worst case scenario" their amps in many regards and perhaps that's the case here. 2. I cannot hear any noise from the speakers more than 8-12" at any distance- at any volume level- on my 92db sens mains.

I dumped more than I care to admit on 6 of these and I'm 100% regret free....WHEW!!!

Not trying to bring the Crown pom poms into the Emotiva thread, just want to give an honest appraisal.

Good luck partner,

James
post #14561 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I've NEVER heard the fans. Ever. I will admit I was a bit hesitant assigning Class D to full(er) range speakers, but I can happily report those fears have been erased. Now, the cabinet I made has a glass front, but I didn't hear them in the week before I made the cabinet, so there you go I guess.

Even the "lower" S/N ratios had me a bit leery but: 1. I have read in multiple arenas that Crown tends to UNDERrate/"worst case scenario" their amps in many regards and perhaps that's the case here. 2. I cannot hear any noise from the speakers more than 8-12" at any distance- at any volume level- on my 92db sens mains.

I dumped more than I care to admit on 6 of these and I'm 100% regret free....WHEW!!!

Not trying to bring the Crown pom poms into the Emotiva thread, just want to give an honest appraisal.

Good luck partner,

James

I have an XP-5. I have used Crown XLS 1500 and thought it to be an excellent amp.
post #14562 of 17194
I have owned various amps and still own an LPA-1 and 2 UPA-1's for my 9 channel setup. I A/B tested my formerly owned XPA-2 and Behringer EP4000 at the same SPL and I found the Behringer preferable for 2 channel music through my Aperion Grand Verus Speakers. Hope this helps.
post #14563 of 17194
Anyone know when the XPA-7 is supposed to hit the street ... looks like a lower powered version of the now-defunct XPR-7 @200 x 7 .. still looks sweet.. i read a blurb on the Emotiva site that they are coming "soon"... I think i would try out that piece with my set-up , just to see if i can hear a definite improvement over my 7 channel rx-z7.. I think it would be fun to try.. just my .02...
post #14564 of 17194
Is the XPA-7 ever going to exist? I believe Emotiva products when they become available for sale. Otherwise, I don't believe.
post #14565 of 17194
Even when they are up for sale, I don't believe they exist until a non fanboi has one installed AND WORKING in their system.

Just practical experience with those blue people who are currently touting the virtues of the non-existant XMC-1 and how great it sounds and how great the Emo TACT implementation is and so on.
post #14566 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by visiter555 View Post

Even when they are up for sale, I don't believe they exist until a non fanboi has one installed AND WORKING in their system.

Just practical experience with those blue people who are currently touting the virtues of the non-existant XMC-1 and how great it sounds and how great the Emo TACT implementation is and so on.

It seems that they do release these pieces for the most part (see UMC-1, new UPA series etc) .. now are they that great? UMC-1 , doesn't sound good and the new UPA series while nice , may not be much more power than a flagship AV receiver.. the XPA-7, when/if it shows , would be a sweet piece at 7 channels for 200 watts... not too many of those around for a decent price.. unless you count the ATI refurbished ones.... just my .02

post #14567 of 17194
So did the UMC-1 ever have all of its critical issues addressed?
post #14568 of 17194
That may depend on what you consider "critical", but pretty much.

The latest FW improved it hugely, remaining issues are things like expansion of DTS and a few niggly things like that.

I believe certain TV boxes may still cause issue and there are a couple of seconds delay in playing back some formats but other than that it's working pretty well now.
post #14569 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis.ie View Post

That may depend on what you consider "critical", but pretty much.

The latest FW improved it hugely, remaining issues are things like expansion of DTS and a few niggly things like that.

I believe certain TV boxes may still cause issue and there are a couple of seconds delay in playing back some formats but other than that it's working pretty well now.

Did anybody ever show that bass management got fixed?
post #14570 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis.ie View Post

That may depend on what you consider "critical", but pretty much.

The latest FW improved it hugely, remaining issues are things like expansion of DTS and a few niggly things like that.

I believe certain TV boxes may still cause issue and there are a couple of seconds delay in playing back some formats but other than that it's working pretty well now.

How long was it from the product launch to the latest firmware?
post #14571 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


Did anybody ever show that bass management got fixed?

Not that I have seen. Although I don't know for sure if the bass management is applied in the usual way it is much improved.

I sold my SMS-1 after the latest FW and now adjust the UMC-1 sub EQ using a Dayton Omnimic to measure FR.

If the Omnimic can be used to check the bass management configuration I would be happy to try it, but I suspect it won't be able.

Dave.
post #14572 of 17194
Bass management was my biggest issue with the UMC-1 and it is indeed fixed in the latest firmware. I have confirmed this with REW.
post #14573 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeman View Post

Bass management was my biggest issue with the UMC-1 and it is indeed fixed in the latest firmware. I have confirmed this with REW.

Your post is the first I have read that confirmed the fix. I always suspected it but did not know for sure.

Thanks,
Dave.
post #14574 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeman View Post

Bass management was my biggest issue with the UMC-1 and it is indeed fixed in the latest firmware. I have confirmed this with REW.

May I ask how exactly you have performed this test? Care to share the measurements?
post #14575 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

May I ask how exactly you have performed this test? Care to share the measurements?

My biggest issue with the initial bass management was all the delays were done prior to summing the SW output. This made it impossible to set the sub delay independently to the speaker delays. This is easy to measure using the impulse overlay in REW.

With the latest firmware I have confirmed with REW that all the speaker delays are fully independent of the Sub output, so as stated by Dan on the Emo Forums Delay, XO & EQ are done post summing stage with the latest firmware. With the early firmwares I was using an 8x8 minidsp to do bass management (delay, XO, EQ, SW output summing), now with the latest firmware I only use the MiniDSP for parametric EQ.

If there are some specific tests you would like me to run to prove this point, let me know & I'll give them a try.
post #14576 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeman View Post

If there are some specific tests you would like me to run to prove this point, let me know & I'll give them a try.

Likewise, I just PMed Markus my EM for any test files etc.
post #14577 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeman View Post


My biggest issue with the initial bass management was all the delays were done prior to summing the SW output. This made it impossible to set the sub delay independently to the speaker delays. This is easy to measure using the impulse overlay in REW.

With the latest firmware I have confirmed with REW that all the speaker delays are fully independent of the Sub output, so as stated by Dan on the Emo Forums Delay, XO & EQ are done post summing stage with the latest firmware. With the early firmwares I was using an 8x8 minidsp to do bass management (delay, XO, EQ, SW output summing), now with the latest firmware I only use the MiniDSP for parametric EQ.

If there are some specific tests you would like me to run to prove this point, let me know & I'll give them a try.

Weeman,

Just so you know, Markus was the first to discover the BM issue and revealed it publicly on the Emo forum.

Dave.
post #14578 of 17194
The routing in my UMC-1 looked something like this:



This is obviously wrong - EQ and delay should be located at the end of the signal flow (right before the gain stage) and not at the input.


It's pretty easy to check for correct functionality with noise (pink or white). I've outlined the test procedure at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21281839

The old test files are no longer available so here are new ones:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21936387/UMC-1_BM_Testfiles.zip


Here's a slightly expanded test procedure:

Make sure no loudpspeaker is connected. The test signals are very loud and can destroy your speakers.
Connect the UMC subwoofer output directly to the line input of your soundcard.

Make sure the test signals are received as a AC-3 bitstream by the UMC-1 (use the S/PDIF or HDMI inputs).

1. Test subwoofer EQ

1.1 Set the crossover frequency to 200Hz. Play file A (white noise, LFE only). Watch the subwoofer output with the REW spectrum analyzer.
Now adjust the subwoofer EQs. Does the spectrum change accordingly? Take a snapshot of the graph and note the EQ settings you've used (e.g. -15dB@60Hz).

1.2 Set the crossover frequency to 200Hz. Play file B (white noise, L only). Watch the subwoofer output with the REW spectrum analyzer.
Now adjust the subwoofer EQs. Does the spectrum look exactly the same with the settings you've used in 1.1? If not then the location of the subwoofer EQ is wrong.

2. Test channel EQ

Set the crossover frequency to 200Hz. Play file B (white noise, L only). Watch the subwoofer output with the REW spectrum analyzer.
Now adjust the EQ for the left channel. Does the spectrum for the subwoofer change? If yes, then the location of EQs for the main and surround channels are wrong.

3. Test delays

Set the crossover frequency to 120Hz. Play file C (correlated white noise, L = 0dB, LFE = -10dB). Watch the subwoofer output with the REW spectrum analyzer.
Set the delay for LFE and L to the same value. Now adjust the distance for the LFE channel. Does the slope change in any way? If yes then the locations of the subwoofer delay is wrong.
Set the delay for LFE and L to the same value. Now adjust the distance for the left channel. Does the slope change in any way? If yes then the locations of the channel delays are wrong.


Please report back your findings - thanks!
post #14579 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejedi123 View Post

It seems that they do release these pieces for the most part (see UMC-1, new UPA series etc) .. now are they that great? UMC-1 , doesn't sound good and the new UPA series while nice , may not be much more power than a flagship AV receiver.. the XPA-7, when/if it shows , would be a sweet piece at 7 channels for 200 watts... not too many of those around for a decent price.. unless you count the ATI refurbished ones.... just my .02


The UMC-1 was more than two years late and took an additional two years to fix most of the issues. There was a 3D video upgrade announced and to be released end of 2011...somehow Emo hasn't responded to any inquiries on that release. Ther was to be a new UMC-1 3D version to be released around end of 2011, any signs of it or further information? The XMC-1 is four plus years behind the release date and still no prototype. Where's the new DAC promised a year plus ago?

in 2011 Emo announced 20+ new products in the pipeline for release in 2011. Anyone?

In 2012 they announced LOTS of new products in the pipeline for release in 2012. They have a couple, which is not lots and almost 50% of 2012 has passed.

Always big announcements....always little to no follow through.

Where are the promised continuing fixes for the UMC-1 that were promised fall of 2011? Oops...the blue team will tell you Emo is "concentrating" on the total (how many total times???) redesign of the XMC-1 and can't allocate resources to an old product (which was supposed to be revised last year).
post #14580 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by visiter555 View Post

The UMC-1 was more than two years late and took an additional two years to fix most of the issues.

Emotiva fixed the UMC-1's broken signal routing? That's news to me. Still waiting for hard facts.
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