EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 507

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly 

I have a few amp questions before I decide to try out a XPA-5.

My fronts are rated at 200w, the rating of the XPA-5 but my center is only rated at 150 and my rears the same. Can I adjust each level of output otherwise when I approach the limit of the fronts I'd be over the centers.

Forget about the rating of the power handling of the speakers. For one thing, that rating is for continuous power. There is zero chance that you will put 200 watts continuously on normal music or movie content. Most speakers that get damaged do so from using underpowered amps with them, not overpowered, causing the amps to clip and delivering a horrible square wave to fry yourt tweeters. And in any event, the difference between 200 watts and 150 watts is minimal - about 1dB. 

It's a strange question :) You won't get more wattage at lower volumes but what you will be doing is ensuring the amp is running well within its capabilities and not clipping, which will have a beneficial effect on the SQ. Also, if it is a Class A/B amp, you may be running it in the more benign Class A if the volume level is low. So yes, it is likely to sound better the less strain it has to take.

It is excellent value for money. I have the comparable XPA-3 (and three UPA-2s, now discontinued) and I love them all.

I am not familiar with the speakers but maybe they are a little 'laid back' and you prefer a slightly more 'aggressive' approach, or a more transparent approach. You cannot compensate for the frequency response of the speakers by changing amps - this is called 'using the amp as a tone control' and is a Bad Idea. If your speakers' treble is too laid back for you, then you need to change the speakers not the amp. (If you have Audyssey, it will compensate for the laid back sound as best it can when it EQs the speakers to attempt to match the target curve.) Putting an XPA-3 in will not make the treble more obvious or more anything really as the XPA-3 has a tested and measured ruler flat frequency response right up to 20kHz.

If your current AVR lacks sufficient power to drive your speakers properly, to the SPLs you want, or if the speakers are presenting a difficult load to the AVR's amps - ie 4 ohm or less at certain frequencies, then an XPA-3 will make a difference. If none of the former applies, the amp will not make an audible difference. When you say that the current amp "does not seem to push things as hard at similar volume levels" I wonder if you mean the sound lacked dynamics? To fully reveal the dynamics you need an amp with good 'headroom' - ie one that has plenty of reserves of power to cope with the 'loud bits' without strain. If your speakers are very inefficient, you may need a lot of power to make them sing and if so, then an XPA-3 may well be what you need. Conversely if the speakers are of average or better efficiency, the XPA-3 may well make no difference at all. Many people are of the view that inefficient speakers often do fail to sound dynamic, so bear that in mind.

I think, from carefully reading your post, and also trying to read between the lines, that what you may be unhappy with is your speakers. An amp change will not help there, unless the specific circumstances I mention in the paragraph above apply. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa 

There is no problem in using a 200 watt amp to drive speakers rated at 150 watts. What I am concerned about is that it is the high frequencies that are "insufficient" as its the lower frequencies that use most of the power. Perhaps it's your speakers?

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa 

I always found Focal titanium tweeters rather hot at the high end, sort of "sizzly" in fact. So my experience is the opposite of yours and this might indicate damaged or defective tweeters.

TBH I struggled a little to understand what the OP was meaning when he said, wrt to the HF of his speakers that "the quality is there but the power is not". It does seem though that the problem lises with his speakers in some way, so a new amp is unlikely to be what he needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly 

OK...let me try to explain better.

First as I go through upgrades my plan was always to invest in a separate amp, so if the amp will/will not help does not matter since it was my plan all along.

I dont' want to turn this into a Focal thread since its off topic, I already posted in the other forum on it. The short of it is I thought the Focal's lacked high end, brightness, however you want to put it. I brought down my KEF IQ10's, placed them on top of the Focal's and did get more clarity or what my ear liked, my wife also felt the same way.

Finding 2 bad speakers I think would be difficult and I hear zero difference between the two.

Before the Focal's I had DefTech 7002's along with a Yamaha RX-V2600. I replaced it with an RX-A 1000 based off all the reading here about SPL vs wattage. Since putting in the RX-A, even on my DeTech's I felt the top end dropped off, and this was in our old house so it was a 1:1 comparison even after running YPAO.

The problem seems worse on the Focal's, maybe there is something wrong with the amp in the Yamaha, although it is 30 watts lower in power than my previous receiver.

Low volume listening on both the Deftech's and Focal's I think it muddy and not what I was used to. From the posts here it does sound like an amp, if it is power related, would help resolve some of that.

I have 20 days left to change out the Focal's, my plan was to buy an amp regardless of what kind of speakers, so buying an amp will let me confirm its either the AVR or the speaker since I still have my 7002's and can compare directly.

As far as a bad speaker rather than relying on my ear I'd really like to measure it. Everything I read is the Focal is a brighter speaker than the KEF's, measuring both and comparing both would be great for me at least to confirm what I am hearing.

Any software tools I can use to do that and how would I go about it? I have 3 very different speakers and think it would be a good comparison with the amp/without the amp.

Is the upper frequency response of the Focals too 'dull'? Is that the problem? If it is, then you need different speakers that are more in line with your preferences. Changing amps won’t change the frequency response of your speakers (not if you choose a properly designed amp). 

Measuring the FR is a great idea and will tell you what is actually going on. You'd need something like REW or OmniMic for that (google them).

What is the sensitivity of the Focals? Are they 4ohm or 8ohm?  How far do you sit from them usually when listening?  How loud do you typically listen at? I assume your room is untreated? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric_Connelly 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Is the upper frequency response of the Focals too 'dull'? Is that the problem? If it is, then you need different speakers that are more in line with your preferences. Changing amps won’t change the frequency response of your speakers (not if you choose a properly designed amp). 

Measuring the FR is a great idea and will tell you what is actually going on. You'd need something like REW or OmniMic for that (google them).

What is the sensitivity of the Focals? Are they 4ohm or 8ohm?  How far do you sit from them usually when listening?  How loud do you typically listen at? I assume your room is untreated? 

Here are the spec's on the speakers:

Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 50Hz - 28kHz
Low frequency point (- 6dB) 41Hz
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 91.5dB
Nom. impedance 8 ohms
Minimum impedance (@25°C) 4.3 ohms @ 146Hz
RMS Power 130W
Max. power handling 200W
Crossover frequency 300Hz / 3000Hz

According to YPAO I'm 17' from the right and 22' from the left. That is when I had them spaced out farther. I moved the left in as it did not seem to make a sound difference and looked more in line with the room.

My preference for music is that the voice always comes out on top. Not for every style but we enjoy vocals. We prefer strong vocal performers and are looking for emotion in the transmittal of the sound, these seem to lack that. The tweeters sound muffled over the mid range. I even removed the grills to see if that made a difference. I've also played them 10 hours a day for 4 days straight with the Apple TV set on shuffle.

I played music off the Apple TV just to break them in but my listening for judging the speaker has been BD/DVD-A/SACD.

On the flip side the center channel when listening to BD is very strong, almost harsh on the vocals.

The room is totally untreated and I did download REW and I'm going to do some reading on it today and see what I get. If it is the room then I have an idea where the problem is, there is a 12' wide recess in the wall that goes back 5', the TV and all that sit back in that, the speakers are at the edge. It is another reason I bought the Focal's was the front porting vs rear.

The amp was the next step regardless of what speakers I end up with. I'm going to order one on Monday, if its not going to help its not going to help, but I had planned on one anyways and for an entry level sub $1000 amp I do not think I'll do any better.

After I do some room measurements, get the amp, etc it will still leave me a week to return them and go with another selection.

OK - that is good info - thanks for that. Your room isn't helping, and you are sitting a long way from the speakers, so you will need  fair bit of amp power, even though they are pretty sensitive and 8 ohms nominally. I still doubt if another amp will solve the problem as it doesn't seem to me to related to a lack of power. HST, if you were going to buy an amp anyway it can’t do any harm, and the Emo amp is a good one. Usually a lack of amp power will manifest itself as extremely harsh distortion caused by driving the amp into, or to the edge of, clipping.

Before you try anything else, I wonder if you can temporarily relocate the speakers into a more benign position in the room? And sit closer to them - say 12 feet or even less. This will at least give you an indication of what effect the placement is having on the FR.

Theresa, and others, have said that the Focal usually sound on the bright side rather then the dull or recessed side, so what you are hearing is odd. Your speaker cable is a decent gauge I assume?  If you are able to temporarily relocate the speakers, report back and we’ll see if we can get any further with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 

I recently sold a pair of Focal 816V speakers. Specs are almost identical to the 814V. I have read where some find these to be bright. This confuses me unless they are in a glass room. I thought they were on the warm side. Keith can correct any misinformation that I give.

Not me Mudcat - I am not in the least familiar with Focal speakers and can only go on what you and others have said - most of which points to them being a little bright if anything, which makes what Eric is hearing odd to say the least. You found them to be a little 'warm' which is a term I’d normally associate with mid-range performance rather than upper treble, but it shows that different people hear different things and have different preferences.

You could well be right - if Eric's preference is for a more forward sound, then something a little more forward and a little more dynamic might suit him better.

Quote:

Now here is the sticky part. I used them with Denon 4310, 4311 and 2308. Yamaha RX-A3000 and UMC-1 / XPA5 combo.
These speakers never sparkled with any unit. Combined with the Yamaha the highs suffered. The Denons and Emo were a definite improvement. Let me hear it Keith, Bill and Teresa.

I am keeping schtum :)  You heard what you heard and, short of being there with you, I can't know what that was. I'm not a massive believer in 'combinations' sounding terribly different, but it can happen with speakers/amps I guess.

Yes, good supplementaries there - in addition, I'll ask Eric if he has tried it with the Yamaha room correction on and off, and if it made any difference?