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post #15361 of 17194
Isn't Nelson Pass a regular on DIYAudio and a participant in "the burning amp festival?" If I recall correctly he and his followers are advocates of what's been called "amps as tone controls" school of design. No harm in designing amps with deliberate distortion if that's what you want and if its enjoyable to you. I've often thought of trying a single ended class A headphone amp for music listening.
post #15362 of 17194
Yes he is. And he is very knowledgeable. You should read his work but only if you can understand it. otherwise it will be no good to you. He is a brilliant design engineer..
post #15363 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Yes, I recall that amp of yours. I would attribute its "special sound" to other factors than it's pure class A operation, what factors I don't know. I do know that distortion levels in most class A/B amps are at inaudible levels, often less than tenths of a percent.
I remember buying a "class A" headphone amp a couple of decades ago and was so disappointed that it didn't sound any better and perhaps worse that I returned it.

 

Yes, I agree with you Theresa. I suspect that the sound from my Class A amp is some form of deliberate engineering in the design of the amp -  I see no reason otherwise why it should sound any different to any other competently designed amp. But it does sound incredibly seductive and 'silky' (amp as tone control?) and over the many years I have had it I have become accustomed to it and love it. It especially suits the kind of music I like (although it is good with pretty much any genre).

 

One thing that has always puzzled me about it is that it has to warm up for at least an hour or it sounds like cr&p. And I mean it sounds like cr&p - harsh, edgy and generally not listenable to. Once it is warm it becomes silky and seductive. I just leave it on all the time - it hasn't been switched off deliberately in more than 20 years. And the heat it generates is usually welcome in England ;) I have no idea why SS equipment should benefit from a warm-up period, but there is no doubt at all that it sounds horrible when it is cold.

post #15364 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by strindl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have an ageing but glorious two channel Class A amp - 50 watts of pure class A - in my music system. It serves as a room heater too! wink.gif But is so silky smooth.... I prefer a slightly more 'laid back' presentation for music and this amp and my old but good speakers give me exactly that. For movies I prefer a much more ruthless transparency to the source.

Class A can be intoxicating when done right. I have a Nelson Pass era Threshold SA/4e 100 watt per channel pure class A amp that I bought in the early 90's. I've used it with Thiel 3.6's ever since and it has given me goosebumps while listening to well recorded music many times since. Good music reproduced just right should give you goosebumps from time to time. Power amp technology hasn't changed much in the last 20 years...a good power amp from the 90's is still a good power amp in the 21st century.

The only small limitation I have had with that amp and the Thiels is with home theater applications...Those Thiels really need more power than 100 watts per channel when doing really powerful movie soundtracks. No problem though, I can quickly switch to a pair of XPA-1's when I feel more power is required.

 

Yes agreed. Mine would be useless in a HT application - 50 wpc (actually I think it's 55 - same thing). Mine is in a totally separate stereo-only system in a different room.

post #15365 of 17194
If it is a tube design, yes 2nd order harmonic distortion is pleasant to the ear. (I personally like it)
Some manufacturers looking for the "tube sound" actually design this in.
Hey, if it sounds great to you, who am I to argue.biggrin.gif
post #15366 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, I agree with you Theresa. I suspect that the sound from my Class A amp is some form of deliberate engineering in the design of the amp -  I see no reason otherwise why it should sound any different to any other competently designed amp. But it does sound incredibly seductive and 'silky' (amp as tone control?) and over the many years I have had it I have become accustomed to it and love it. It especially suits the kind of music I like (although it is good with pretty much any genre).

One thing that has always puzzled me about it is that it has to warm up for at least an hour or it sounds like cr&p. And I mean it sounds like cr&p - harsh, edgy and generally not listenable to. Once it is warm it becomes silky and seductive. I just leave it on all the time - it hasn't been switched off deliberately in more than 20 years. And the heat it generates is usually welcome in England wink.gif I have no idea why SS equipment should benefit from a warm-up period, but there is no doubt at all that it sounds horrible when it is cold.

I'd like to get that sound for my headphones. The one Class A headphone amp I tried, admittedly decades ago, didn't give me that. Nelson Pass is known for designing amps with that sound and evidently they don't need to be complicated as seen by the dedicated DIY community that designs and builds such amps. "Burning amps" is a good label for them as they all run very hot. Some are single ended and that is thought to give them a pleasant distortion.
post #15367 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Isn't Nelson Pass a regular on DIYAudio and a participant in "the burning amp festival?" If I recall correctly he and his followers are advocates of what's been called "amps as tone controls" school of design. No harm in designing amps with deliberate distortion if that's what you want and if its enjoyable to you. I've often thought of trying a single ended class A headphone amp for music listening.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gferrell View Post

Yes he is. And he is very knowledgeable. You should read his work but only if you can understand it. otherwise it will be no good to you. He is a brilliant design engineer..

 

This article may be of interest... the post s not as OT as it may seem. Think, when reading it, of the price Emotiva asks for its extraordinarily well-designed and well-made amps, and then reflect on how you would feel if you had just paid 7 grand for this 'audiophile' amp. The emphasis in the opening paragraph is mine, not the author's.

 

 

SAB Hall of Shame - Pass Labs INT-150 Integrated Amp

passlabs_int150.jpg
Pass Labs INT-150 Integrated Amplifier. Source: Pass Labs
I have no problem, generally speaking, with expensive audio electronics. Yes, the accumulated weight of controlled listening tests conducted over the past three decades have convinced every reasonable person that all competently designed and nonbroken audio amplifiers, digital sources, DACs, preamps (absent signal processing such as room correction) and so on are indistinguishable from one another by sound alone, unless misused. But "sound" is just one variable among many that distinguish one audio box from another, and there are many legitimate reasons for one thing identical to a bunch of other things along one variable to be more expensive than another. There are, therefore, many legitimate reasons for a reasonable music lover to pick expensive audio electronics, despite the lack of sonic differences. Audio gear is, after all, luxury goods. Luxury goods usually carry luxury prices. 

In the same breath, when an audio component is very expensive, it better be impeccably engineered as well. If not, we all have license to point at it and laugh. It just won't do for, say, a seven thousand dollar integrated amp to provide lower-fidelity than a typical base-model A/V receiver (AVR)!

The Pass Labs INT-150, which currently stickers for seven thousand one hundred fifty U.S. dollars, is in fact markedly lower in fidelity than most cheap AVRs. 

So let us point and laugh.
 
Why do I say this seven thousand dollar integrated amp is poorly engineered, and in fact a lower-fidelity device than a cheap AVR? Well, ignoring my guidelines about how to read Stereophile without wanting to throw it across the room, here's why in short, from Erick Lichte's review of the INT-150 in Stereophile
"Slightly bothersome was some mechanical hum from the INT-150's transformer, as well as some barely audible ground buzz coming through my speakers. *** [T]he INT-150 always wanted to make a little noise."
First, let's be clear. Audible hum and buzz, not being part of the original signal, automatically makes a piece of gear low in fidelity to the musical source material. Nothing, after all, says "canned music" like noise from the electronics!
 

Second, let's make a reasonable inference based on the plain text of Mr. Lichte's review, and one other. Given that 
  1. in this review, he also wrote, "[i]n the last year, a bunch of amps have come through my house," and
  2. in this review, he did pointedly not write that he usually or in even one other instance had such noise issues, and
  3. in a review of another integrated amp, he did not mention any transformer hum or buzzing from his loudspeakers, 
therefore the noise problems Mr. Lichte reported probably stemmed from design or build quality flaws in this particular seven thousand dollar integrated amp, and not any external conditions such as an exceptionally poor power feed to his home. 

But there's more!

Not only is this seven thousand dollar integrated amp a sonic train-wreck, it's also a victim of poor quality control! From Mr. Lichte's review!

"Also, in the last week the INT-150 was in residence before I shipped it to JA for measurement, I discovered that the volume control on the front panel wasn't working. I shut off the amp, unplugged it, and let it sit an hour or so. When I again powered it up, the volume control had returned to normal working order—but less than half an hour later, it ceased working again."

 
Again, the Pass INT-150 is a seven thousand dollar integrated amp. Shouldn't a prospective purchaser of a seven thousand dollar integrated amp reasonably expect that every single piece be rigorously inspected for build quality errors before leaving the factory? 

Yes, this Lichte fellow gave the Pass INT-150 a breathlessly positive review. That was a foregone conclusion. It is, after all, a seven thousand dollar integrated amp! And one marketed (perhaps even designed) by a person considered in audiophile circles to be an amplifier guru at that. But don't put too much stock in the breathlessly positive tone of the review. Mr. Lichte compromises his integrity by inserting a "doth protest too much" sentence into his review:

"The main lesson [from having a bunch of amps in his house] has been that anyone who thinks all amps sound the same is inexperienced, unobservant, philosophically brainwashed, deaf, or crazy." 

One's natural first reaction, in the same spirit of comity as Mr. Lichte's idiot blather, is to assume him functionally deaf. However, it appears he is a trained singer of some note. So his problem is probably not hearing acuity, but rather intellectual honesty. After all, he writes fantasy fan fiction for audiophools about hearing things that don't exist, and that, at least in competently-designed-and-built gear, won't exist. Or maybe he's just one of those people who's so excited about having a seven thousand dollar bauble in his home for free that he cannot be objective about it.

But let me defend Mr. Lichte a little bit. An amp that hums from its transformer and whines from its outputs will sound different from a competently-designed one! Furthermore, an integrated amp with a defective volume control maysound different from one produced with better quality control. So, in this narrow case, Mr. Lichte is certainly correct that anyone who expects that a humming and buzzing amp to sound the same as a competently designed and built amp is, indeed, "inexperienced, unobservant, philosophically brainwashed, deaf, or crazy." Such an amp will, in fact, sound bad.

Now let's turn to this seven thousand dollar integrated amp's measurements. In a nutshell, it has a fair bit of high-order distortion (which is perceptually more objectionable than lower-order distortion; that's one reason why "THD," which equally weights all orders of distortion, is such a meaningless metric), and "***at even higher powers, some odd-order harmonics of the AC power supply can be seen." Overall, one can't help but note John Atkinson's conclusion:

"As I have come to expect from a Nelson Pass design, the INT-150 offers excellent measured performance in most respects."

When JA ends his measurement notes of a seven thousand dollar integrated amp with a damn-with-faint-praise line like "offers excellent measured performance in most respects." (emph. added), as he did here, one knows the thing is a dud. For seven thousand dollars, after all, there's no excuse for anything short of measured perfection.

The slapdash engineering and build quality of the Pass INT-150, price aside, is somewhat surprising, really, given that many of Nelson Pass's past designs (including an Adcom GFA-5800 owned by this blogger since the late 1990s) were quite well-engineered by the standards of their day - and also by ours. Even earlier high-priced Pass Labs gear was, though expensive and by design energy-wasting, at least sonically transparent: famously, a now-desceased Miami-area Pass Labs dealer was unable to distinguish his own Pass Labs monobloc amps from a Yamaha integrated amp of known high performance in a controlled listening test conducted using his own system with music he picked as especially revealing of what he considered the Pass amps' "sound." (See Tom Nousaine, "Letter to the Editor," The Audio Critic 24 (1997), at 6-7) One has to wonder when Mr. Pass began to stray from the goal of designing and producing high fidelity audio components.

Audio electronics should make no sound in use except for the music one plays. A simple 2-channel integrated amp that lacks even a phono stage, to say nothing of sophisticated features such as DSP room correction, offered for $7000+ better damn well be perfect. Because the Pass Labs INT-150 is obviously flawed in ways that would be inexcusable in a $350 AVR, let alone a $7000 "high end" integrated amp, it is the charter member of the SAB's Hall of Shame.

Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/10/13 at 6:26am
post #15368 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

If it is a tube design, yes 2nd order harmonic distortion is pleasant to the ear. (I personally like it)
Some manufacturers looking for the "tube sound" actually design this in.
Hey, if it sounds great to you, who am I to argue.biggrin.gif

 

It's SS. It does sound wonderful to me but I have had it for decades and am used to the sound. I bought it before I understood much about amplifiers. I can give no reason for why I like it other than it is perhaps from the 'amp as tone control' school of design and it suits the type of music I play most (Jazz, smallish combos, vocals - occasional big band).

 

I am totally and unshakeably convinced that all unbroken, competently designed amps, working within their design limits and not deliberately misused sound identical to each other. This has been proven so often in so many blind ABX tests that it cannot be denied by any reasonable person. To deny it simply demonstrates a lack of understanding of the science involved, in much the same way as denying, from observation alone, that the earth goes around the sun and not vice-versa. Generally, what I look for in an amp is total transparency to the source - eg an Emotiva amp. So my Class A is a weakness if you like - perhaps the amp has some of the hallucinatory properties of its namesake in the world of narcotics :) 

 

The bottom line is that, it seems, that in my HT I look for ruthless accuracy, whereas in my music room I am all about preference. Odd, but then that's human beings for you :)

post #15369 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, I agree with you Theresa. I suspect that the sound from my Class A amp is some form of deliberate engineering in the design of the amp -  I see no reason otherwise why it should sound any different to any other competently designed amp. But it does sound incredibly seductive and 'silky' (amp as tone control?) and over the many years I have had it I have become accustomed to it and love it. It especially suits the kind of music I like (although it is good with pretty much any genre).

One thing that has always puzzled me about it is that it has to warm up for at least an hour or it sounds like cr&p. And I mean it sounds like cr&p - harsh, edgy and generally not listenable to. Once it is warm it becomes silky and seductive. I just leave it on all the time - it hasn't been switched off deliberately in more than 20 years. And the heat it generates is usually welcome in England wink.gif I have no idea why SS equipment should benefit from a warm-up period, but there is no doubt at all that it sounds horrible when it is cold.

I'd like to get that sound for my headphones. The one Class A headphone amp I tried, admittedly decades ago, didn't give me that. Nelson Pass is known for designing amps with that sound and evidently they don't need to be complicated as seen by the dedicated DIY community that designs and builds such amps. "Burning amps" is a good label for them as they all run very hot. Some are single ended and that is thought to give them a pleasant distortion.

 

I agree with you. I would never buy this amp today. It's like an old jacket or pair of shoes - I know there are many flaws and faults but I am just so comfortable in them I can't face up to it :)

post #15370 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I'd like to get that sound for my headphones. The one Class A headphone amp I tried, admittedly decades ago, didn't give me that. Nelson Pass is known for designing amps with that sound and evidently they don't need to be complicated as seen by the dedicated DIY community that designs and builds such amps. "Burning amps" is a good label for them as they all run very hot. Some are single ended and that is thought to give them a pleasant distortion.

Was the headphone amp you tried previously a Tube design?
If not, would you consider one?
I had a MG-Head with Senn 580s years ago and with the right tubes, it just sounded warm and wonderful. No harshness at all.
I know it wasn't "flat out accurate", but I didn't care since I could listen for hours and just enjoy the music.
post #15371 of 17194
I'm thinking of purchasing a MINI-X A-100 amp to power the front presence speakers to go along with my Yamaha RX-A3000 in a 9.2 system.

How do you think this will work?
post #15372 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post

I'm thinking of purchasing a MINI-X A-100 amp to power the front presence speakers to go along with my Yamaha RX-A3000 in a 9.2 system.

How do you think this will work?

It will work fine. The RX-Z11 had 11 amps inside, but only 7 "normal" powered. The other 4 were only 50 Watts and were for the front and rear presences. So 50 Watts is all you need for these.
post #15373 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post

I'm thinking of purchasing a MINI-X A-100 amp to power the front presence speakers to go along with my Yamaha RX-A3000 in a 9.2 system.

How do you think this will work?

That mini X is a really nice little amp. It will work great for your intended use, but I like using it for occasions when I want a semi portable sound system that actually sounds like music. This is a nice setup...I add a Squeezebox Touch and a portable hard drive containing the music from a thousand ripped CD's.



It works great, and I just have to add some speakers appropriate for the location I want to use it in and I have music. I have even added a portable 4g hot spot to allow Pandora streaming just about anywhere.

The amp isn't an XPA-2 of course, but it actually does a credible job of driving these Magnepan 1.7's.


Edited by strindl - 1/12/13 at 9:01pm
post #15374 of 17194
Ordered mini-x today. Thanks for the advice.
post #15375 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post

Ordered mini-x today. Thanks for the advice.

Emotiva had one of those powering their PA setup at this year's EmoFest. It is perfect for a booth setup at a trade show or even Karaoke. It will be good at powering a stereo zone as long as that zone isn't 100's of watts. I'd say it would be a good step up from the Yamaha's presence speaker amp power.
post #15376 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Emotiva had one of those powering their PA setup at this year's EmoFest. It is perfect for a booth setup at a trade show or even Karaoke. It will be good at powering a stereo zone as long as that zone isn't 100's of watts. I'd say it would be a good step up from the Yamaha's presence speaker amp power.
The RX-A3000 doesn't have 9 amps so it needs an extra 2ch amp for Front Presence. The more recent 3010 (not sure) and 3020 (certain) do av'em.
post #15377 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post

Ordered mini-x today. Thanks for the advice.

You'll be impressed when you get it. It has a real quality look and feel in addition to actually letting the music sound like music.
post #15378 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kps88user View Post

is Mark Schifter currently affiliated with Emotiva Electronics? TIA

NO! Check out this post in another thread in response to your question.

Bill

Wow kind of interesting to see that name. I met him years ago at a listening party in Temecula California, he is the reason I purchased my Emotiva DMC-1 which I still use paired with my XPA-5 and Ebony Rocket speakers.

I know a lot happened over the years with AV123 and Mark but reading that post brought back a lot of great home theater setup memories.

I kind of stopped following this stuff day in and day out and never really got a full grasp as to what happened with Mark, AV123, the Emotiva relationship and so forth. None of my business really.

I just know I still love the Emotiva products I own and would recommend them to just about anyone I know.

60% of the time it works every time!
*Sprint HIGH Speed 3G/LTE Nexus*
post #15379 of 17194
My above post was in reference to this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kps88user View Post

is Mark Schifter currently affiliated with Emotiva Electronics? TIA

60% of the time it works every time!
*Sprint HIGH Speed 3G/LTE Nexus*
post #15380 of 17194
Question??
Would you think the UPA 700 Amp , has enough horsepower to adequately Bi-Amp a pair of JBL Studio L 890s and a LC2 Center plus a pair of JBL Studio L 810s????
The Emotiva product line is very intriguing. I wasn't sure what kind of experience I would get , if I paired up the UPA 700 with a UMC-200 pre pro.
Anyone out there even doing anything close to this??

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700
post #15381 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by VINYLFREAK4 View Post

Question??
Would you think the UPA 700 Amp , has enough horsepower to adequately Bi-Amp a pair of JBL Studio L 890s and a LC2 Center plus a pair of JBL Studio L 810s????
The Emotiva product line is very intriguing. I wasn't sure what kind of experience I would get , if I paired up the UPA 700 with a UMC-200 pre pro.
Anyone out there even doing anything close to this??

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700

Personally I would skip bi-amping and go for a XPA-5.

Are you going to use active crossovers?
If you are, then the 700 is a cheap way to get amp channels.
If you are just removing the metal bridge, I wouldn't bother.
post #15382 of 17194
I agree with Bootman. The XPA-5 is the better deal. I haven't used the UPA-700 but use a UPA-5, XPA-3, and a UPA-2. I also used to use a UMC-1. The UMC-200 is an updated version of the UMC-1. It is a bare bones processor that some like.
post #15383 of 17194
I agree, 250 Watt is max recommended amp power and sensitivity is 91 dB so the XPA-5 fits the bill better than the 80 Watt of the UPA-7.

Cool center speaker BTW.
post #15384 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by VINYLFREAK4 View Post

Question??
Would you think the UPA 700 Amp , has enough horsepower to adequately Bi-Amp a pair of JBL Studio L 890s and a LC2 Center plus a pair of JBL Studio L 810s????
The Emotiva product line is very intriguing. I wasn't sure what kind of experience I would get , if I paired up the UPA 700 with a UMC-200 pre pro.
Anyone out there even doing anything close to this??

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700

Personally I would skip bi-amping and go for a XPA-5.

Are you going to use active crossovers?
If you are, then the 700 is a cheap way to get amp channels.
If you are just removing the metal bridge, I wouldn't bother.

 

Absolutely. 'Passive' biamping is a waste of a good amp and a length of wire. 

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

post #15385 of 17194
I'm sorry I didn't address the passive bi-amping portion of your post but Keith has done so superbly.
post #15386 of 17194
Wow!
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice.
It looks like I will definitely be looking at the XPA 5 rather than the UPA 700.
I am currently not at a position to upgrade just yet. I need to save some more pennies. smile.gif
From what I've read here in the forums and on other sites , Emotiva looks like it gives you a great bang for your buck.
I know a few of you have commented that the UMC-200 is a bare bones Pre-Pro , would anyone have any recommendations for
a Pre-Pro that might have more features at the same price point??
post #15387 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by VINYLFREAK4 View Post

Wow!
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice.
It looks like I will definitely be looking at the XPA 5 rather than the UPA 700.
I am currently not at a position to upgrade just yet. I need to save some more pennies. smile.gif
From what I've read here in the forums and on other sites , Emotiva looks like it gives you a great bang for your buck.
I know a few of you have commented that the UMC-200 is a bare bones Pre-Pro , would anyone have any recommendations for
a Pre-Pro that might have more features at the same price point??

The UPA-700 is ofcourse a very good budget choice and indeed great with the UMC-200. But it will not have significantly more power than a AVR. Perfect if the speakers are 95 dB sensitive. But your's will benefit from the XPA-5 power.

I recently traded a Yamaha AVR (2007 RX-V2700) that was packed with features for a end of the line UMC-1 for $500 (the one now replaced by the UMC-200). To be honoust, the features for the money were the decisive factor in 2007 to buy the Yamaha. And there's nothing wrong with the sound quality either. But I hardly used any of those features (iPod dock / streaming / DSP). And I discovered that zone 2 were analogue sources only, so I ended up buying an external DAC for zone 2 capability. Together costed me 2K euro... Half that amount would buy me the UMC-200 + UPA-700 and still have the same real power as a more expensive AVR (but with far less features).

So ask yourself: this is what I want to spend, what do I want for it? Features or sound quality? if you cannot stretch for a XPA-5, maybe try a UPA-500, you can always upgrade it later and not loose a large amount.

BTW, I use the XPR-5 but that will move once the house build is done. Needles to say, it makes the speakers sing, especially the humble B&W CMC, which is a low 85 dB / Watt sensitive. I always thought it was rubbish, but some real power is bringing life to it, to my surprise.
post #15388 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by VINYLFREAK4 View Post

Wow!
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice.
I know a few of you have commented that the UMC-200 is a bare bones Pre-Pro , would anyone have any recommendations for
a Pre-Pro that might have more features at the same price point??
The only other pre pro that I know of in this price range is the outlaw 975 and it has less features. after that you would probably double the price with a Marantz pre pro. How about giving this group a little idea as to what you want out of a pre pro.I have found some great knowlage from the people on this sight my self.smile.gif
post #15389 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by VINYLFREAK4 View Post

Wow!
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice.
It looks like I will definitely be looking at the XPA 5 rather than the UPA 700.
I am currently not at a position to upgrade just yet. I need to save some more pennies. smile.gif
From what I've read here in the forums and on other sites , Emotiva looks like it gives you a great bang for your buck.
I know a few of you have commented that the UMC-200 is a bare bones Pre-Pro , would anyone have any recommendations for
a Pre-Pro that might have more features at the same price point??

What features are important to you?

A $600 AVR with preouts may be a better choice based on your needs.
post #15390 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

The only other pre pro that I know of in this price range is the outlaw 975 and it has less features. after that you would probably double the price with a Marantz pre pro. How about giving this group a little idea as to what you want out of a pre pro.I have found some great knowlage from the people on this sight my self.smile.gif

Well , I would say overall I am looking for just improved overall sound quality. As I touched on in one of my earlier posts my speakers are all JBL Studio L models. 890s for front R&L a LC2 Center channel and 810s for my surrounds. I also have a JBL ES250PW sub-woofer. All of these are currently being driven by an ONKYO TX-SR608 AVR. The ONKYO does a decent job , but I've always felt I'm not experiencing the full sonic potential of my JBLs.

This is all part of my HT system in our family room where we do the majority of our TV watching. Our screen is a Panasonic 50" GT25 Plasma. While I do enjoy some good HD audio formats on BluRays , my main love is listening to music through the JBLs. I like to listen to a lot of Jazz and Classic Rock. The JBLs sound awesome being driven by the ONKYO. I just know when I get some good clean power behind them , they will sound even better.

The ONKYO TX-SR608 does do some video processing on the video end. I believe the UMC-200 does none. I don't know how important that is , given the video processing boards in modern TVs . I'm not opposed
to paying a higher price for a Pre-Pro if there is added Sound Quality and functionality attached , with the higher price. Hopefully this makes my setup a little clearer and also how I use my system.
I really do appreciate everyone's input and advice I have gotten here in this forum. biggrin.gif
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