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post #15451 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I wonder if it is possible to just get rid of emo-Q and use that programming space for more PEQ filters?
I suspect not. When processors perform their roomEQ routine, it occupies the DSP space normally used for chores like bitstream decoding and post-processing. It returns those resources to the DSP when turned off, but there's not a bucket of MIPs sitting idle anywhere.
post #15452 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I do the same thing, not with the UMC-200 though, but with miniDSPs and Omnimic. I'm certain the parametric EQs are a step up from the graphic ones in my old UMC-1 (long ago retired).

I wonder if it is possible to just get rid of emo-Q and use that programming space for more PEQ filters?
That would make this one unique unit if Emotiva added say a high quality mic with REW curves, or better yet a kit similar to what parts express offers.

That would set this unit apart from the competition IMHO.

 

It's an interesting idea - but I think most people want automated room EQ these days. REW is not an easy program to use or to master either (as I know from my own current experience in learning to use it).

post #15453 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's an interesting idea - but I think most people want automated room EQ these days. REW is not an easy program to use or to master either (as I know from my own current experience in learning to use it).
+1
post #15454 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

REW is not an easy program to use or to master either (as I know from my own current experience in learning to use it).

I agree Keith. I'm not the most technically adept with this hobby of ours or that great with a computer and I had a tough time with REW. I wish I had a better grasp of using REW but at this point I'm happy with what XT32 does in my room. I was listening to a Donald Fagen's Nighfly DVD-A today at fairly high volumes. The bass seemed to come from the center of the room not from the left front corner where my sub is located. I have noticed this quite a bit lately and to me it shows how well XT32 is EQing my sub.

Bill
post #15455 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's an interesting idea - but I think most people want automated room EQ these days. REW is not an easy program to use or to master either (as I know from my own current experience in learning to use it).

But most people would consider an AVR instead anyway.
Prepros like these would lean towards the enthusiast crowd, no?
After all aren't we the only ones talking about it? wink.gif
post #15456 of 16068
True but learning REW is non-trivial even for enthusiasts.
post #15457 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

REW is not an easy program to use or to master either (as I know from my own current experience in learning to use it).

I agree Keith. I'm not the most technically adept with this hobby of ours or that great with a computer and I had a tough time with REW. I wish I had a better grasp of using REW but at this point I'm happy with what XT32 does in my room. I was listening to a Donald Fagen's Nighfly DVD-A today at fairly high volumes. The bass seemed to come from the center of the room not from the left front corner where my sub is located. I have noticed this quite a bit lately and to me it shows how well XT32 is EQing my sub.

Bill

 

XT32 is a terrific tool I agree.

 

Bill - you may not know that the latest release of REW (version 5.x Beta) allows for a far more simplified setup. You no longer need an external soundcard nor a mic preamp if you use a USB mic. If you laptop has HDMI you can even test each speaker individually in a 7.1 setup - all you need is the mic plugged into a USB port on the lappy and an HDMI cable plugged into an input on the AVR.

 

The 'old' REW was way too complicated for me - but the latest version is much more straightforward. If you are interested, pop over to the new thread linked in my sig - we are mostly REW virgins in there and the help from the more experienced guys is terrific. ATM the thread is mostly about setting up REW - we are all waiting for our USB mics which are on back order till the end of this month. Member AustinJerry is also preparing a terrific 'step by step' guide (I will attach the PDF of it to this post) which is fully illustrated and designed for REW virgins. I have not used a Windows computer for a decade (Mac user here) but even I was set up in no time (using my OmniMic mic for testing purposes - you can also use your Audyssey mic just for testing it all out but the measurements will not be accurate as the mic is not calibrated for REW). If you use a Mac, the latest Beta has full OS-X support but I have not tried it personally as I wanted to stick with Windows for the time being as most of the support is on that platform.

 

 

 

 

REW 101 v1-7.pdf 4,160k .pdf file
post #15458 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

XT32 is a terrific tool I agree.

Bill - you may not know that the latest release of REW (version 5.x Beta) allows for a far more simplified setup. You no longer need an external soundcard nor a mic preamp if you use a USB mic. If you laptop has HDMI you can even test each speaker individually in a 7.1 setup - all you need is the mic plugged into a USB port on the lappy and an HDMI cable plugged into an input on the AVR.

The 'old' REW was way too complicated for me - but the latest version is much more straightforward. If you are interested, pop over to the new thread linked in my sig - we are mostly REW virgins in there and the help from the more experienced guys is terrific. ATM the thread is mostly about setting up REW - we are all waiting for our USB mics which are on back order till the end of this month. Member AustinJerry is also preparing a terrific 'step by step' guide (I will attach the PDF of it to this post) which is fully illustrated and designed for REW virgins. I have not used a Windows computer for a decade (Mac user here) but even I was set up in no time (using my OmniMic mic for testing purposes - you can also use your Audyssey mic just for testing it all out but the measurements will not be accurate as the mic is not calibrated for REW). If you use a Mac, the latest Beta has full OS-X support but I have not tried it personally as I wanted to stick with Windows for the time being as most of the support is on that platform.




REW 101 v1-7.pdf 4160k .pdf file

Keith,

Thanks so much for the heads up for new version of REW smile.gif. The biggest stumbling block with my earlier attempts at REW was setting up the external sound card. It was very frustrating as I always felt like I was doing something wrong. So eliminating that step it should be much easier. I'll read through the link in your sig and give it a go when I have the time. Any recommendations for a USB mic? Thanks again!

Bill
post #15459 of 16068
The hot usb mic now is the MiniDSP UMIK-1
post #15460 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

The hot usb mic now is the MiniDSP UMIK-1

As a fan of miniDSP I hate to say this, but I think the Dayton mic from http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html is a better deal. Its hand calibrated but is on back order.
post #15461 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

XT32 is a terrific tool I agree.

Bill - you may not know that the latest release of REW (version 5.x Beta) allows for a far more simplified setup. You no longer need an external soundcard nor a mic preamp if you use a USB mic. If you laptop has HDMI you can even test each speaker individually in a 7.1 setup - all you need is the mic plugged into a USB port on the lappy and an HDMI cable plugged into an input on the AVR.

The 'old' REW was way too complicated for me - but the latest version is much more straightforward. If you are interested, pop over to the new thread linked in my sig - we are mostly REW virgins in there and the help from the more experienced guys is terrific. ATM the thread is mostly about setting up REW - we are all waiting for our USB mics which are on back order till the end of this month. Member AustinJerry is also preparing a terrific 'step by step' guide (I will attach the PDF of it to this post) which is fully illustrated and designed for REW virgins. I have not used a Windows computer for a decade (Mac user here) but even I was set up in no time (using my OmniMic mic for testing purposes - you can also use your Audyssey mic just for testing it all out but the measurements will not be accurate as the mic is not calibrated for REW). If you use a Mac, the latest Beta has full OS-X support but I have not tried it personally as I wanted to stick with Windows for the time being as most of the support is on that platform.




REW 101 v1-7.pdf 4160k .pdf file

Keith,

Thanks so much for the heads up for new version of REW smile.gif. The biggest stumbling block with my earlier attempts at REW was setting up the external sound card. It was very frustrating as I always felt like I was doing something wrong. So eliminating that step it should be much easier. I'll read through the link in your sig and give it a go when I have the time. Any recommendations for a USB mic? Thanks again!

Bill

 

Hi Bill - most of us have ordered the UMM-6, calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs. It comes with cal files for 0, 45 and 90 degrees and the cal files are readable directly by REW. It's under $100. I would give you a link to it on the CSL site but it appears to be down this morning (my time) - probably they will fix it by the time they get to the office (local time).  You just plug the mic in to the USB port, load the cal file the one time, and that's it. No external soundcard needed, no internal soundcard calibration needed. If you have HDMI it's just one cable to an HDMI input on your AVR.

 

EDIT: I see Theresa has kindly provided the link...

post #15462 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

The hot usb mic now is the MiniDSP UMIK-1

As a fan of miniDSP I hate to say this, but I think the Dayton mic from http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html is a better deal. Its hand calibrated but is on back order.

 

Yes, the big advantage of the UMM-6 is that it is a) individually calibrated and b) comes with cal files for 0, 45 and 90 degrees. The UMIK-1 is batch-calibrated and comes only with a file for 0 degrees. As most REW measurements will be taken with the mic pointing vertically to the ceiling (a la Audyssey) this means the UMIK-1 is essentially uncalibrated for this use.

post #15463 of 16068
Parts express has the UMM-6 for 88 on back order.
The Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 kit is available.
Anyone has any experience with this?
post #15464 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Parts express has the UMM-6 for 88 on back order.
The Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 kit is available.
Anyone has any experience with this?

I'm a devoted user of the Omnimic V2. The only drawback is that Bill Waslo, author of the Omnimic software, still hasn't released a 5.1 test signal disk that would make it much easier to measure a 5.1 system.
Edited by Theresa - 1/24/13 at 6:32am
post #15465 of 16068
Thanks everyone for your thoughts on a calibration mic smile.gif. I was unable to open both links posted to Cross Spectrum. But doing a quick google I was able to get to their site. Is this the mic with basic calibration for $90 the one that is being suggested? If it is I'll keep an eye on the Cross Spectrum site and order one when they are back in stock.

Bill
post #15466 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Parts express has the UMM-6 for 88 on back order.
 

 

That's not calibrated though. It's only $90 + carriage from CSL and that is individually calibrated and provided with 3 cal files for 0, 45 and 90 degree use.

post #15467 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That's not calibrated though. It's only $90 + carriage from CSL and that is individually calibrated and provided with 3 cal files for 0, 45 and 90 degree use.

Ah, yes that does indeed make this the better value.

Thanks for the clarification.
post #15468 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I'm a devoted user of the Omnimic V2. The only drawback is that Bill Waslo, author of the Omnimic software still hasn't released a 5.1 test signal disk that would make it much easier to measure a 5.1 system.

Theresa,

A bit off topic but are you using XT32 with your 4520? If you are how are further tweaking your system using Omnimic?

Bill
post #15469 of 16068
Back to Emotiva tech talk. smile.gif

I just found out there is a new firmware for the UMC-1 in the works.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=28509&page=1#486135

At least one of the fixes is to restore enhanced bass to stereo mode.
post #15470 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That's not calibrated though. It's only $90 + carriage from CSL and that is individually calibrated and provided with 3 cal files for 0, 45 and 90 degree use.

Ah, yes that does indeed make this the better value.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

No problemo. Just to add to the knowledge base here - the UMM-6 mic is now available at Cross Spectrum Labs and Herb is expecting to start shipping them in the next week.

post #15471 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I'm a devoted user of the Omnimic V2. The only drawback is that Bill Waslo, author of the Omnimic software still hasn't released a 5.1 test signal disk that would make it much easier to measure a 5.1 system.

Theresa,

A bit off topic but are you using XT32 with your 4520? If you are how are further tweaking your system using Omnimic?

Bill

 

Not Theresa, Bill... but I can tell you how I have been using OM to tweak the system, post Audyssey.

 

For openers, as you know, the graphs in Denon AVRs are fairly basic, and don't even exist in Onkyos at all. Even with Audyssey Pro, the 'after' graphs are only predictions because Audyssey doesn't do any post-calibration measurements. So running OM (or REW) after calibration will show you exactly what you are getting in your room once Audyssey has done its stuff. By making measurements with and without Audyssey engaged you can also see the difference Audyssey is making.

 

OM is also useful for optimising the splice between sub(s) and the main speakers. This can have a profound effect on bass quality. Audyssey is weak in this area because it measures all the speakers and the subs, but at no time does it ever measure the speakers AND the subs together. You can easily do this with OM and see the result of the interaction between the mains and the sub(s). You will often find that there is a dip at the crossover region caused by phase cancellations induced by the interaction of the mains + subs. By varying Audyssey's sub distance setting (which is really a delay setting as you know, hence the phase issues) you can often make dramatic, audible improvements to the splice. You can adjust the distance in real time and observe the graphed result, which makes it very easy. 

 

OM can also be useful for optimising speaker and sub placement before running Audyssey. As you know, the better the speaker/room optimisation prior to running Audyssey, the better the resulting calibration is likely to be. 

 

OM can of course also be used to conduct many acoustic measurements of the listening space, including waterfalls for bass decay and ETCs for finding problems in the time domain. All of this helps create a physical environment which is better for Audyssey when you get to run it.

post #15472 of 16068
I adjust speaker response before hand with Omnimic and miniDSPs.
Edited by Theresa - 1/24/13 at 2:36pm
post #15473 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I adjust speaker response before hand with Omnimic and miniDSPs. I'm currently having a problem with Audyssey in that its setting my center's crossover at 140Hz. With the Onkyo and the other Denon it set the crossover correctly at 80Hz. I wonder if its the mic? Nothing has changed in the placement of the center speaker and similar measurement points are used for Audyssey. Omnimic shows the center as flat down to about 60Hz with Audyssey turned off.

 

Audyssey doesn't actually set the XO, Theresa. All it does is report its findings to the AVR which then sets a XO based on however it was programmed to do so. For example, if Audyssey detects the F3 at 60 Hz it will pass that info to the AVR. One AVR could decide, on the basis of that information, to set the speakers to Large while another AVR could decide to set them to a XO of 60Hz. So it is quite possible that the same run, with a different AVR, could result in two different XOs having been set.

 

HST, the difference between 140Hz and 80Hz is pretty substantial, so if nothing has changed, then it deserves investigation. I would take it to the Audyssey thread for the thoughts of the resident experts. Are you certain beyond doubt that nothing has changed which could affect the F3 that Audyssey is now finding? Besides speaker placement etc which you mention, the position of the Audyssey mic during measurement could also affect the F3 detected. Are you sure you measured with a consistent No 1 mic position? Something is odd - I know your centre speaker is far more capable than a F3 of 140Hz woud indicate.

 

If you suspect the mic, you can use the mic from your Onkyo which I believe you still have? So long as it is the ACM1H mic, you are good to go.

 

This FAQ answer has the full skinny on mics:

 

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

post #15474 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Back to Emotiva tech talk. smile.gif

I just found out there is a new firmware for the UMC-1 in the works.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=28509&page=1#486135

At least one of the fixes is to restore enhanced bass to stereo mode.

That is nice to hear!! I still have mine being used in family room but have been contemplating letting it go to a family member who is just getting started in this hobby and would serve him better since I/we barely use it.
post #15475 of 16068
reply to Audyssey problems moved to Audyssey topic.
post #15476 of 16068
Theresa - replied in Audyssey thread.

Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/25/13 at 4:51am
post #15477 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

The UMC200 actually has very good room EQ if you roll up your sleeves and use the built-in parametric EQs and do it manually.

It has the big advantage that you are not forced to do full range EQ as you are with Audyssey.

If you have basic REW skills, you can set the EQs with as much or more precision as Audyssey or ARC. I'm certainly able to get the response comparable to the ARC in my Anthem prepro.

The automatic EQ is a bit less precise, but does improve things. It also has the advantage of being able to tweak the response later so you can remove any correction above a certain frequency if you desire.

The parametric EQs in the UMC-200 are a great idea but there are only 3 bands for the subs and it lacks equal-loudness compensation functionality like Dolby Volume or Dynamic EQ. Without those features and the limited feature set (no video processing) the UMC-200 is overpriced in my opinion. Compare features, parts and build quality of a Onkyo TX-NR818 to the UMC-200.

On the other hand, with more EQ bands in the sub channel, equal-loudness compensation and balanced ouputs, I'd buy it right away.

P.S. I doubt that it's possible to set a filter more precisely than Audyssey when only a limited number of parametric EQs is available. Whether Audyssey's precision (or approach) is needed or desirable is an entirely different discussion though.
post #15478 of 16068
If I was limited to the UMC-200 I'd use miniDSPs along with an Omnimic or REW to adjust the equalization. The equalization in the UMC-200 is not only too simple but the automated functions don't seem to work too well.
post #15479 of 16068
If I remember correctly, miniDSP provides the same filter characterisics as a standard parametric EQ. miniDSPs would also require an additional AD/DA conversion whereas all processing within the UMC-200 probably happens digitally without unnecessary conversions.
post #15480 of 16068
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

If i remember correctly, miniDSP provides the same filter characterisics as a standard parametric EQ. It would also require an additional AD/DA conversion whereas all processing within the UMC-200 probably happens digitally without unnecessary conversions.

It also has shelf filters and can be automated with Omnimic and REW. It also has many more parametric/shelf filters than the UMC-200. It does entail additional AD/DA conversion but is honestly transparent to me even though the AD/DA are limited to 48kHz. It also provides active crossovers which I utilize with my active speakers. Modern AD/DAs including those in the miniDSPs have been found transparent in all blind listening tests.
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