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post #15481 of 16068
1/27/13 at 5:36am
All true but I don't see the benefit of an external EQ when it doesn't provide more sophisticated filtering. Mixed-phase filters comes to mind.

The UMC-200 probably has enough computational power for additional filters in the sub channel (including simple shelving filters). Emotiva should do that.
Anybody that has learned (and understood) how to automate the miniDSP EQ process with REW should also be capable of manually transferring REW filter settings to a UMC-200 smile.gif
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post #15482 of 16068
1/27/13 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

All true but I don't see the benefit of an external EQ when it doesn't provide more sophisticated filtering. Mixed-phase filters comes to mind.

The UMC-200 probably has enough computational power for additional filters in the sub channel (including simple shelving filters). Emotiva should do that.
Anybody that has learned (and understood) how to automate the miniDSP EQ process with REW should also be capable of manually transferring REW filter settings to a UMC-200 smile.gif

True but the UMC-200 is limited to three filters for the bass. This would not be enough much of the time and there is no indication the UMC-200 is capable of more. The UMC-200 is limited in so many other ways compared with a receiver used as a pre-pro that I wouldn't consider it although some would. It is important for people to know these limits and that there are alternatives at a similar price so that they can make an informed purchase. I remember thinking I could live with a UMC-1 and how over time the limitations became intolerable. Audyssey XT32 eventually became essential to me for SQ in my less than perfect room.
Edited by Theresa - 1/27/13 at 6:00am
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post #15483 of 16068
1/27/13 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

True but the UMC-200 is limited to three filters for the bass. This would not be enough much of the time

Yes, 3 bands in the sub channel is not enough.
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post #15484 of 16068
1/27/13 at 7:22am
Looking into a preamp/amp combo, and Emotiva has some $1k or so combo...

Q: How much of a "upgrade" is this from Onkyo TX 706 AVR ?

I know this is mass market avr, but am curious if spending $1k is a big return on money...

thanks

Yes, i had seen their 700amp/200 preamp products, and looks enticing...


Speakers: HSU Hybrid 15 speaker package (w VTF-15 subwoofer)
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post #15485 of 16068
1/27/13 at 7:29am
How big is you room? How far is your main listening position? Are you more movies or music? How loud do you like to listen?

If you can answer these questions we can better gauge if it will be a noticeable upgrade for you. I upgraded from a denon 1611 to an onkyo 809 w emotiva xpa-5 amp and it made a huuuuuge difference. I like to listen at -10 and higher. It always sounded thin to me (lack of power) now it's full and rich. Best upgrade I ever made I went from 95/5 movies/ music to about 60/40 maybe even 55/45 smile.gif
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post #15486 of 16068
1/27/13 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlm86 View Post

Looking into a preamp/amp combo, and Emotiva has some $1k or so combo...

Q: How much of a "upgrade" is this from Onkyo TX 706 AVR ?

I know this is mass market avr, but am curious if spending $1k is a big return on money...

thanks

Yes, i had seen their 700amp/200 preamp products, and looks enticing...


Speakers: HSU Hybrid 15 speaker package (w VTF-15 subwoofer)

The UMC-200 IMHO is not an upgrade but the amp might be depending on the levels at which you listen.
Edited by Theresa - 1/27/13 at 8:06am
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post #15487 of 16068
1/27/13 at 9:50am


Room is 25' x 18' x 10 (hwl)

Yes i too listen to loud music and the music appears thin at times...
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post #15488 of 16068
1/27/13 at 9:57am
Then you would definitely hear a difference IMHO. By adding the xpa-5. However I would keep the 709 as a pre/pro and use the preouts. If you want an upgrade in prepro. You can look at the 818 or the 809. Both have upgraded audyssey in them. But just the added power of the external amp will make your hsu speakers sing.

Also by going used on te xpa5 and waiting for the onkyo to be on sale. I got the pair for 900$
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post #15489 of 16068
1/27/13 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlm86 View Post



Room is 25' x 18' x 10 (hwl)

Yes i too listen to loud music and the music appears thin at times...

Rearranging speakers, listener and furniture would help more than any equipment upgrade.
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post #15490 of 16068
1/27/13 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlm86 View Post



Room is 25' x 18' x 10 (hwl)

Yes i too listen to loud music and the music appears thin at times...

Onkyo TX-NR818 plus Emotiva XPA-5. Accessories4less had refurbished units for $780 and the XPA-5 is $900 but you could try the promo code NEWYEARGEAR between 1/15/2013 and 2/15/2013 for 10% off.
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post #15491 of 16068
1/27/13 at 9:21pm
Looking at the XPA-200 to drive the front l/r speakers (Monitor Audio RX2), from the preamp outs of a Marantz SR5007.
These are 90dB sensitivity, 6 ohm speakers.

The XPA-200 is rated by Emotiva at "150 watts per channel into 8 ohms, or 240 watts per channel into 4 ohms." What would its power output be at 6 ohms? and how would it do for these speakers?

thanks
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post #15492 of 16068
1/28/13 at 3:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeaHawk View Post

Looking at the XPA-200 to drive the front l/r speakers (Monitor Audio RX2), from the preamp outs of a Marantz SR5007.
These are 90dB sensitivity, 6 ohm speakers.

The XPA-200 is rated by Emotiva at "150 watts per channel into 8 ohms, or 240 watts per channel into 4 ohms." What would its power output be at 6 ohms? and how would it do for these speakers?

thanks

I would, and did, get the XPA-3. Your center channel needs as much power as the L&R. It's more powerful than the XPA-200 too.
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post #15493 of 16068
1/28/13 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I would, and did, get the XPA-3. Your center channel needs as much power as the L&R. It's more powerful than the XPA-200 too.

+1, the XPA-3 is just a great amp for the price.

Heck, it may just be the BEST amp for the price.
Show me one better. I can't find it.
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post #15494 of 16068
1/28/13 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeaHawk View Post

Looking at the XPA-200 to drive the front l/r speakers (Monitor Audio RX2), from the preamp outs of a Marantz SR5007.
These are 90dB sensitivity, 6 ohm speakers.

The XPA-200 is rated by Emotiva at "150 watts per channel into 8 ohms, or 240 watts per channel into 4 ohms." What would its power output be at 6 ohms? and how would it do for these speakers?

thanks

I would, and did, get the XPA-3. Your center channel needs as much power as the L&R. It's more powerful than the XPA-200 too.

+1

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post #15495 of 16068
1/28/13 at 6:47am
I've been wondering if I would get a significant benefit with an XPA-3 for my front soundstage:

Fronts = Paradigm Monitor 9 v6
Center = Paradigm Monitor CC-290

I also have 2 pairs of Emotiva ERD-1's that I use for side surrounds and front heights, but I figured the front three would benefit the most from an external amp. My subwoofer is an Elemental Designs A2-300 (which is now benefitting from XT32 - I previously only had 2EQ). My avr is an Onkyo TX-NR818. So I'm not sure if I would notice a difference with speakers that have a decent sensitivity and using Audyssey XT32. I don't know much about external amps other than the very positive things I have been reading here in multiple threads on AVS. So that really makes me wonder if it's an upgrade I should pursue. Any thoughts from some of you Emotiva/external amp experts?
Thanks in advance!
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post #15496 of 16068
1/28/13 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KK in CT View Post

I've been wondering if I would get a significant benefit with an XPA-3 for my front soundstage:

Fronts = Paradigm Monitor 9 v6
Center = Paradigm Monitor CC-290

I also have 2 pairs of Emotiva ERD-1's that I use for side surrounds and front heights, but I figured the front three would benefit the most from an external amp. My subwoofer is an Elemental Designs A2-300 (which is now benefitting from XT32 - I previously only had 2EQ). My avr is an Onkyo TX-NR818. So I'm not sure if I would notice a difference with speakers that have a decent sensitivity and using Audyssey XT32. I don't know much about external amps other than the very positive things I have been reading here in multiple threads on AVS. So that really makes me wonder if it's an upgrade I should pursue. Any thoughts from some of you Emotiva/external amp experts?
Thanks in advance!

I would jump on a used one to try it out.
You can always just resell it.

There should be one near you now if you look.
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post #15497 of 16068
1/28/13 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KK in CT View Post

I've been wondering if I would get a significant benefit with an XPA-3 for my front soundstage:

Fronts = Paradigm Monitor 9 v6
Center = Paradigm Monitor CC-290

I also have 2 pairs of Emotiva ERD-1's that I use for side surrounds and front heights, but I figured the front three would benefit the most from an external amp. My subwoofer is an Elemental Designs A2-300 (which is now benefitting from XT32 - I previously only had 2EQ). My avr is an Onkyo TX-NR818. So I'm not sure if I would notice a difference with speakers that have a decent sensitivity and using Audyssey XT32. I don't know much about external amps other than the very positive things I have been reading here in multiple threads on AVS. So that really makes me wonder if it's an upgrade I should pursue. Any thoughts from some of you Emotiva/external amp experts?
Thanks in advance!

 

External amps will only benefit you in certain circumstances:

 

  1. If you cannot achieve the SPLs you want with your current amps without distortion
  2. If you are running your current amps close to, or into, clipping when trying to achieve the SPLs you want
  3. If your speakers present an unusual and difficult load to the amps - eg 4 ohm speakers that dip to 2 ohms at some frequencies
  4. If your current amps constantly go into protection mode (and there is no obvious fault like a short circuit)

 

If any of these apply to you then you will benefit from external amps. If not, then you will not hear any difference and your current amps are good enough for your application.

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post #15498 of 16068
1/28/13 at 8:25am
Thanks for the replies. The situation most applicable to me is a combination of No. 1 and 2 above, with the distinction that at moderate SPLs the SR5007 is not driving these with the same body and presence that I had gotten used to using Paradigm Titan Monitor v5s (8 ohm/93dB). Adding gain does little to deliver authority to the soundstage, so I'm looking to add some power to the amplification.

That said, another issue for me is simply the room available in the older Ikea cabinet I've hacked to hold this system. There isn't much room in this corner so even if I were to opt for a bespoke cabinet, it will only hold about 50" width cabinet. If I add an XPA-3 to the mix I will have to move the RX-Center to top of the cabinet, build an enclosure for it that can hold the monitor, and possibly not have enough ventilation around the Marantz and amplifier in the cabinet.

Thoughts? I also wonder if some of the wanting presence in this setup is the speakers not having a wall parallel to them but a corner (basement with finished concrete wall).

Edited by theSeaHawk - 1/28/13 at 8:46am
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post #15499 of 16068
1/28/13 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeaHawk View Post

Thanks for the replies. The situation most applicable to me is a combination of No. 1 and 2 above, with the distinction that at moderate SPLs the SR5007 is not driving these with the same body and presence that I had gotten used to using Paradigm Titan Monitor v5s (8 ohm/93dB). Adding gain does little to deliver authority to the soundstage, so I'm looking to add some power to the amplification.

That said, another issue for me is simply the room available in the older Ikea cabinet I've hacked to hold this system. There isn't much room in this corner so even if I were to opt for a bespoke cabinet, it will only hold about 50" width cabinet. If I add an XPA-3 to the mix I will have to move the RX-Center to top of the cabinet, build an enclosure for it that can hold the monitor, and possibly not have enough ventilation around the Marantz and amplifier in the cabinet.

Thoughts? I also wonder if some of the wanting presence in this setup is the speakers not having a wall parallel to them but a corner (basement with finished concrete wall). DSC_0240.JPG 7956k .JPG file

 

If 1 and/or 2 apply, then yes you will probably benefit from more power. You may be running out of headroom with your current amps and that is what you are hearing - a little compression of the dyna,ic range perhaps?

 

Cabinet is a problem. Speaker position is perhaps easy to check by moving them, even if only on a temporary basis. Do you have any measuring gear?

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post #15500 of 16068
1/28/13 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeaHawk View Post

Thanks for the replies. The situation most applicable to me is a combination of No. 1 and 2 above, with the distinction that at moderate SPLs the SR5007 is not driving these with the same body and presence that I had gotten used to using Paradigm Titan Monitor v5s (8 ohm/93dB). Adding gain does little to deliver authority to the soundstage, so I'm looking to add some power to the amplification.

That said, another issue for me is simply the room available in the older Ikea cabinet I've hacked to hold this system. There isn't much room in this corner so even if I were to opt for a bespoke cabinet, it will only hold about 50" width cabinet. If I add an XPA-3 to the mix I will have to move the RX-Center to top of the cabinet, build an enclosure for it that can hold the monitor, and possibly not have enough ventilation around the Marantz and amplifier in the cabinet.

Thoughts? I also wonder if some of the wanting presence in this setup is the speakers not having a wall parallel to them but a corner (basement with finished concrete wall). DSC_0240.JPG 7956k .JPG file

Does your system need to be placed in a corner? The other issue I see is that your R&L speakers are postioned way too low. If possible you should try to relocate your system (specifically the speakers) out of the corner and raise the height of your R&L speakers closer to ear height. I think you should try these suggestions before buying an external amp as your speakers are fairly efficent. As I look at your picture again the doors (when open) on your stand are not helping with overall dispersion of your speakers. Can you remove them?

Bill
Edited by Bill Mac - 1/28/13 at 8:54am
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post #15501 of 16068
1/28/13 at 8:52am
I have the Audyssey mic that came with the SR5007, which I believe has MultEQ XT. I have run this setup and have Dynamic EQ on, reference level offset to 10dB, and dynamic volume to light. Crossover is set to 80Hz for fronts and center, which all are set to "small." I have a Canton 10 SW in the system.

BTW, if I set dynamic volume to off, the sound gets even flatter. I tend to like transparency with body at moderate volume and still have enough headroom to crank music from time to time and feel it.

Bill, I actually got this system, in part, to enable me to listen to the Analogue Production three-channel SACDs that SH mastered - and the RCA Living Stereo classical SACDs. (username "Ere" at his forums).
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post #15502 of 16068
1/28/13 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeaHawk View Post

I have the Audyssey mic that came with the SR5007, which I believe has MultEQ XT. I have run this setup and have Dynamic EQ on, reference level offset to 10dB, and dynamic volume to light. Crossover is set to 80Hz for fronts and center, which all are set to "small." I have a Canton 10 SW in the system.

BTW, if I set dynamic volume to off, the sound gets even flatter. I tend to like transparency with body at moderate volume and still have enough headroom to crank music from time to time and feel it.

Bill, I actually got this system, in part, to enable me to listen to the Analogue Production three-channel SACDs that SH mastered - and the RCA Living Stereo classical SACDs. (username "Ere" at his forums).

I do not use Dynamic EQ when listening to music. I would definitely try it with Dynamic Volume off. I'm far from an expert on room acoustics. But I strongly feel the way you speakers are positioned is the biggest issue as far as overall SQ of your system. You really need to raise the height of your R&L speakers and space them further apart as well. Then those APO SACDs will sound sooooo much better smile.gif.

Bill
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post #15503 of 16068
1/28/13 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Does your system need to be placed in a corner? The other issue I see is that your R&L speakers are postioned way too low. If possible you should try to relocate your system (specifically the speakers) out of the corner and raise the height of your R&L speakers closer to ear height. I think you should try these suggestions before buying an external amp as your speakers are fairly efficent. As I look at your picture again the doors (when open) on your stand are not helping with overall dispersion of your speakers. Can you remove them?

The corner position is the best in terms of viewing the monitor, and that is ostensibly the main purpose of this setup.
Moving the speakers up is definitely an option, especially if I were to put the RX-Center on top of the cabinet (as it is right now, its center line is at 24 inches high off the floor). Moving it up would bring it nearly to ear level from most of the listening positions. That would also address the problem of the doors when in use. Wife doesn't like to see the equipment all the time and I like to keep dust away as much as possible.

I would definitely prefer to run music without the dynamic volume - it reminds me of a loudness button - but at present if I do even more of the body is drained from the SQ.
I run my Marantz 2275 perfectly flat at all SPLs and it has much more body than music through the SR5007, but I will definitely try moving the speakers up and, for the l/r, a bit out and closer to the wall.
Edited by theSeaHawk - 1/28/13 at 9:08am
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post #15504 of 16068
1/28/13 at 9:37am
theSeaHawk,

Having the TV and speakers in a corner is not a problem. It even can be beneficial (because it helps in delaying first reflections).

Important is speaker and listener symmetry and detrimental effects from nearby objects and furniture. Remove any clutter around the speakers, the listener and in between. Try toeing-in the speakers so their 0° axes cross at a point half way between the speaker baseline and listening position. This can broaden the sweet spot.
The center should be "freed" from an outer housing that otherwise leads to detrimental resonances.
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post #15505 of 16068
1/28/13 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

External amps will only benefit you in certain circumstances:
  1. If you cannot achieve the SPLs you want with your current amps without distortion
  2. If you are running your current amps close to, or into, clipping when trying to achieve the SPLs you want
  3. If your speakers present an unusual and difficult load to the amps - eg 4 ohm speakers that dip to 2 ohms at some frequencies
  4. If your current amps constantly go into protection mode (and there is no obvious fault like a short circuit)

If any of these apply to you then you will benefit from external amps. If not, then you will not hear any difference and your current amps are good enough for your application.

Thanks for the replies. As for the 4 points listed, I don't think any of them apply to my situation (at least that I'm aware of). I had read in the past of people saying how they heard more detail from their speakers after adding an external amp. Perhaps that's because they did have one of the issues you listed.
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post #15506 of 16068
1/28/13 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KK in CT View Post

Thanks for the replies. As for the 4 points listed, I don't think any of them apply to my situation (at least that I'm aware of). I had read in the past of people saying how they heard more detail from their speakers after adding an external amp. Perhaps that's because they did have one of the issues you listed.

yes and no...while it was clearer sounding for me because my receiver was under powered...I found the following:

more detail was noticed because equal power is now being sent to all channels...where with a receiver it cannot send all channels the same watts at one time. there fore if there was more power needed for the center channel the detail in the mains was lacking because not enough power was available to drive them equally (does that make sense?) I find this to be true of the surrounds as well. this is where I think i am noticing the biggest difference by using an external amp.
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post #15507 of 16068
1/28/13 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

yes and no...while it was clearer sounding for me because my receiver was under powered...I found the following:

more detail was noticed because equal power is now being sent to all channels...where with a receiver it cannot send all channels the same watts at one time. there fore if there was more power needed for the center channel the detail in the mains was lacking because not enough power was available to drive them equally (does that make sense?) I find this to be true of the surrounds as well. this is where I think i am noticing the biggest difference by using an external amp.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I think that makes sense to me. I guess my issue is I don't know if my receiver is under powered. I do have a decent size room (it's about 20' wide by 15' deep and has a vaulted ceiling that starts at 12.5' and goes up to flatten off at 17' in the middle. I'm guessing that might have an impact on the power needed from my avr.
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post #15508 of 16068
1/28/13 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I would jump on a used one to try it out.
You can always just resell it.

There should be one near you now if you look.

Thanks. I'll have to check it out.
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post #15509 of 16068
1/28/13 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


Having the TV and speakers in a corner is not a problem. It even can be beneficial (because it helps in delaying first reflections).

Would his speaker placement in the corner, close together and almost touching the sidewalls be better than on a side or end wall where there is much more speaker placement flexability?

Bill
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post #15510 of 16068
1/28/13 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KK in CT View Post

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I think that makes sense to me. I guess my issue is I don't know if my receiver is under powered. I do have a decent size room (it's about 20' wide by 15' deep and has a vaulted ceiling that starts at 12.5' and goes up to flatten off at 17' in the middle. I'm guessing that might have an impact on the power needed from my avr.
I'll almost guarantee it. Sorry I didn't read what receiver you have. But if it is say 135 watts per channel real world means it is putting out probably around 75 watts per channel all channels driven. Which isn't enough based on your room size distance to mlp and speaker setup
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