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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 521

post #15601 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Is there a way to dim the lights on USP-1? I am planning to use it in darkened theater room.

Nothing a bit of black electrical tape can't solve. wink.gif
post #15602 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

You can also try the "emotiva lounge" The easiest way to find it is to google "emotiva lounge xpr-2" I can't comment on the XPR-2 but emotiva does make a nice product for the price.smile.gif



Thanks smile.gif
post #15603 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

I have an XPR-5 and have heard an older Sunfire 5 x 200 amp as well. I didn't audition the Sunfire with MY speakers, so I really can't comment on the SQ on both. The Sunfire was definitely " noisier " than my Emotiva but I attribute that to the crappy speakers the amp was connected to compared to my DefTechs. The topology of the Sunfire is very similar to the Emotiva in that they are both a modified A/B design to provide better efficiency. I consider both the Sunfire and Emotiva to have a neutral sound.

The XPR-2 is essentially the same design as the XPR-5 with the exception of a smaller transformer for its two channels. I think it is 2500VA, which is plenty for two 600 watt channels.

I think you would get more headroom with the XPR-2 but probably won't notice any difference at normal listening levels. All I can comment on is that my DefTech mains ( BP7000SC ) like the extra power. I can drive them higher without taxing the receiver but I find that most of the time I'm barely tapping 50% of the 400 WPC even when playing " hard-hitters " like Skyfall. Only the 1st LED shows during normal TV viewing. LOL

Emotiva has a 30-day trial, so you could try the XPR-2. I think you would have to pay to ship it back though. If you can hold off until around June/July, Emotiva has a summer sale and the amps will be discounted about 15%.



This is some good info. I like my music loud on occasions and I'm finding the sound at higher volumes from my Sunfire is suffering. I don't know exactly how i would describe it, maybe generic would be a good word. Another member on another thread described it as compressed. It could be that I isn't a good match for my new pre/pro. Or I'm driving it to hard at higher volumes and it's introducing distortion. And the low end just isn't there. By all accounts everyone seems happy with the Emotiva amps. The new line looks like a different animal entirely. Do you find the low end is to your liking? Thanks for taking the time, this is very helpful.
post #15604 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

This is some good info. I like my music loud on occasions and I'm finding the sound at higher volumes from my Sunfire is suffering. I don't know exactly how i would describe it, maybe generic would be a good word. Another member on another thread described it as compressed. It could be that I isn't a good match for my new pre/pro. Or I'm driving it to hard at higher volumes and it's introducing distortion. And the low end just isn't there. By all accounts everyone seems happy with the Emotiva amps. The new line looks like a different animal entirely. Do you find the low end is to your liking? Thanks for taking the time, this is very helpful.

Are you comparing the low end of your Revel's to your previous speakers. I thought you had Def Techs previously. My memory could be bad on this. I would not expect as much low end from Revels (with no sub) as Def Tech. Are you crossing the Revels too low thinking they have more low bass capability than they actually have?

How does your room interact with bass? I have 2 systems. Each set up sounds different when it is interchanged to the other room.

I would prefer the Emo amp, however, there are other factors that will alter the sound more than the amp (given all the criteria for amp comparisons). biggrin.gif
post #15605 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Are you comparing the low end of your Revel's to your previous speakers. I thought you had Def Techs previously. My memory could be bad on this. I would not expect as much low end from Revels (with no sub) as Def Tech. Are you crossing the Revels too low thinking they have more low bass capability than they actually have?

How does your room interact with bass? I have 2 systems. Each set up sounds different when it is interchanged to the other room.

I would prefer the Emo amp, however, there are other factors that will alter the sound more than the amp (given all the criteria for amp comparisons). biggrin.gif



No, I never said I had def techs, I had PSB original golds for fronts. I bought the Marantz AV8801 in early January and added the Revel's around one month ago. Someone else mentioned their experience with the def techs I believe. See that's the thing, my room is terrible acoustically, with one front speaker ending up placed near the beginning of a hallway, to the side of it. But this can't be helped for now. Maybe my PSB's sounded bassier because of the front port versus the rear port on the Revel's? As a reference point I have them crossed at 80 Hz. With my room I think I have to depend a lot on my sub. I'm setup in 5.1, soon to be 5.2. That said I just not happy how the Sunfire is matching up, and I think that is at least part of the bass problem with the Revel's. I know there is a bunch of variables, but I really feel I'm lacking power. Driving the amp to the point of some added distortion, and would feel better if I could achieve the volume I like on occasion at say 2/3 volume.
Edited by comfynumb - 3/17/13 at 6:52am
post #15606 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

No, I never said I had def techs, I had PSB original golds for fronts. I bought the Marantz AV8801 in early January and added the Revel's around one month ago. Someone else mentioned their experience with the def techs I believe. See that's the thing, my room is terrible acoustically, with one front speaker ending up placed near the beginning of a hallway, to the side of it. But this can't be helped for now. Maybe my PSB's sounded bassier because of the front port versus the rear port on the Revel's? As a reference point I have them crossed at 80 Hz. With my room I think I have to depend a lot on my sub. I'm setup in 5.1, soon to be 5.2. That said I just not happy how the Sunfire is matching up, and I think that is at least part of the bass problem with the Revel's. I know there is a bunch of variables, but I really feel I'm lacking power. Driving the amp to the point of some added distortion, and would feel better if I could achieve the volume I like on occasion at say 2/3 volume.

Sorry about the mix up on your previous speakers. Another peril of old age.
In my limited experience with the Revels they are flatter than PSB's. Neutral is great unless you prefer more boost/cut in a given FR.
Personally I like a mid bass punch and let the sub handle the deep bass. Maybe that is why I do not like Audyssey.
Best of luck to you in the journey.
post #15607 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Sorry about the mix up on your previous speakers. Another peril of old age.
In my limited experience with the Revels they are flatter than PSB's. Neutral is great unless you prefer more boost/cut in a given FR.
Personally I like a mid bass punch and let the sub handle the deep bass. Maybe that is why I do not like Audyssey.
Best of luck to you in the journey.



No problem on the mix up. Since you mentioned Audyssey, it crossed my fronts at 250 Hz, as it could not deal with my room I'm assuming. And sent all my bass to my sub, which it had me turn down so low I practically had no bass. After my first pass I'm not a fan either. Maybe in a more acoustically friendly room it would work great, as others suggest. Thanks and btw we're not old, I look it as seasoned wink.gif
post #15608 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi,I wanted to post this question on the correct XPR-2 thread but I read it and it was really all over the place. Does anyone have any experience with this amplifier and their thoughts on it? I m using a Marantz AV8801 as my pre/pro and a Sunfire 200~7 channel amp. Front speakers I'm looking to power are Revel F52's and they just want more power. I've heard a lot of good things about Emotiva but needed to know from the ones that own them.


Thanks,
John.

 

Hi John,

 

There are a lot of factors involved but I would have thought there was nothing to gain by moving from the Sunfire to the XPR-2. The Revels are 87.5dB/1w/1m efficiency and 6.5 Ohms (nominal) with a 3.5 Ohms minimum rating. That should not make them especially hard to drive and 200 watts from the Sunfire amp should be more than enough, unless you have a huge room and sit a long way back from the speakers and demand very high (100+dB) peak SPLs. The very comprehensive user manual for the Revels seems not to contain a word about their power handling capacity but with an efficiency of 87.5dB and a 200 watt input you should be able to hit about 105dB if you sit 12 feet away (actually that calculation is based on an 8ohm speaker so you could do even better than that). Of course that leaves you no headroom and to get 3dB headroom you'd need a 400 watt amp. But can the speakers handle 400 watts?  If they can’t then there is no real point to having one - extra headroom is always desirable but if the speakers can only handle a genuine 200 watts, then you can’t do much more. I am not talking about the manufacturer's spec which will be continuous RMS watts and not very meaningful but real-world power handling, Absent information from Revel it is hard to know. Perhaps you have this info from another source - a review maybe?

 

If indeed you are driving the Sunfires into clipping, which seems unlikely on the face of it, then the 600 watts of the XPR-2 could be beneficial, providing an additional 4.5dB of headroom.

 

My question would be - what makes you believe the speakers need more power than 200 watts?  And can the Revels handle more power?

post #15609 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Are you comparing the low end of your Revel's to your previous speakers. I thought you had Def Techs previously. My memory could be bad on this. I would not expect as much low end from Revels (with no sub) as Def Tech. Are you crossing the Revels too low thinking they have more low bass capability than they actually have?

How does your room interact with bass? I have 2 systems. Each set up sounds different when it is interchanged to the other room.

I would prefer the Emo amp, however, there are other factors that will alter the sound more than the amp (given all the criteria for amp comparisons). biggrin.gif



No, I never said I had def techs, I had PSB original golds for fronts. I bought the Marantz AV8801 in early January and added the Revel's around one month ago. Someone else mentioned their experience with the def techs I believe. See that's the thing, my room is terrible acoustically, with one front speaker ending up placed near the beginning of a hallway, to the side of it. But this can't be helped for now. Maybe my PSB's sounded bassier because of the front port versus the rear port on the Revel's? As a reference point I have them crossed at 80 Hz. With my room I think I have to depend a lot on my sub. I'm setup in 5.1, soon to be 5.2. That said I just not happy how the Sunfire is matching up, and I think that is at least part of the bass problem with the Revel's. I know there is a bunch of variables, but I really feel I'm lacking power. Driving the amp to the point of some added distortion, and would feel better if I could achieve the volume I like on occasion at say 2/3 volume.

 

Given that you say your room is "terrible acoustically" and given that the room has far, far more influence on the sound than any amplifier, you may be wasting your money bu buying a new amplifier, if the problem you feel exists is with the room. It would help draw more constructive replies if you could in some quantify what you mean by being "not happy with how the Sunfire is matching up". 

 

Do you have a SPL meter?  If so, can you play something at your normal listening level and tell us what the SPL reading is at your usual listening position?  This will give us a big clue as to how many of the Sunfire's watts you are currently using. (If you don't have an SPL meter, download a free smartphone app - it will probably be accurate enough for this purpose. Better still, download two and compare them).

 

There is a danger you could drop a lot of money on an amp and it still won’t solve your problem because the problem isn't a lack of watts. Emotiva amps are terrific (I own 4) and they are great value for money - but they still cost a fair few dollars!.

post #15610 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Sorry about the mix up on your previous speakers. Another peril of old age.
In my limited experience with the Revels they are flatter than PSB's. Neutral is great unless you prefer more boost/cut in a given FR.
Personally I like a mid bass punch and let the sub handle the deep bass. Maybe that is why I do not like Audyssey.
Best of luck to you in the journey.



No problem on the mix up. Since you mentioned Audyssey, it crossed my fronts at 250 Hz, as it could not deal with my room I'm assuming. And sent all my bass to my sub, which it had me turn down so low I practically had no bass. After my first pass I'm not a fan either. Maybe in a more acoustically friendly room it would work great, as others suggest. Thanks and btw we're not old, I look it as seasoned wink.gif

 

The fact that Audyssey has found the F3 of your speakers at 250Hz demonstrates that something is wrong. Audyssey is pretty good at finding the F3 in-room response of speakers. Assuming the Audyssey mic isn't faulty and that you used the correct measuring technique (see the Audyssey 101 linked in my sig for more info) there is a reason why Audyssey is believing your speakers can only handle down to 250Hz!  There has been a recent case of a similar experience reported in the Audyssey thread and the problem was solved by using some reflection absorption behind the listening position (rear wall) for example.  The more you tell, the more convinced I am becoming that swapping the amps out would bring you little benefit. Fortunately, if you wanted to just suck it and see, Emo let you try their amps at home for 30 days and all it will cost you is return carriage.

post #15611 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi John,

There are a lot of factors involved but I would have thought there was nothing to gain by moving from the Sunfire to the XPR-2. The Revels are 87.5dB/1w/1m efficiency and 6.5 Ohms (nominal) with a 3.5 Ohms minimum rating. That should not make them especially hard to drive and 200 watts from the Sunfire amp should be more than enough, unless you have a huge room and sit a long way back from the speakers and demand very high (100+dB) peak SPLs. The very comprehensive user manual for the Revels seems not to contain a word about their power handling capacity but with an efficiency of 87.5dB and a 200 watt input you should be able to hit about 105dB if you sit 12 feet away (actually that calculation is based on an 8ohm speaker so you could do even better than that). Of course that leaves you no headroom and to get 3dB headroom you'd need a 400 watt amp. But can the speakers handle 400 watts?  If they can’t then there is no real point to having one - extra headroom is always desirable but if the speakers can only handle a genuine 200 watts, then you can’t do much more. I am not talking about the manufacturer's spec which will be continuous RMS watts and not very meaningful but real-world power handling, Absent information from Revel it is hard to know. Perhaps you have this info from another source - a review maybe?

If indeed you are driving the Sunfires into clipping, which seems unlikely on the face of it, then the 600 watts of the XPR-2 could be beneficial, providing an additional 4.5dB of headroom.

My question would be - what makes you believe the speakers need more power than 200 watts?  And can the Revels handle more power?



Hi, I hear what your saying and I'm sure in a normal room my 200 WPC would be more than enough. My room is rather large 13x28. Someone. I know has the same Revel's and they can handle the power no problem. In my experience it"s the distortion speakers can't handle versus the power. Within limits of course. I guess I'm looking for a better sounding amp with more control. The Sunfire is good but there are better sounding ones. Also maybe the match is just wrong with my pre/pro, amp and room combo. I wish someone could comment on the XPR line without bringing their thoughts on my system into play, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. Thanks guys.
Edited by comfynumb - 3/17/13 at 10:36am
post #15612 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi John,

There are a lot of factors involved but I would have thought there was nothing to gain by moving from the Sunfire to the XPR-2. The Revels are 87.5dB/1w/1m efficiency and 6.5 Ohms (nominal) with a 3.5 Ohms minimum rating. That should not make them especially hard to drive and 200 watts from the Sunfire amp should be more than enough, unless you have a huge room and sit a long way back from the speakers and demand very high (100+dB) peak SPLs. The very comprehensive user manual for the Revels seems not to contain a word about their power handling capacity but with an efficiency of 87.5dB and a 200 watt input you should be able to hit about 105dB if you sit 12 feet away (actually that calculation is based on an 8ohm speaker so you could do even better than that). Of course that leaves you no headroom and to get 3dB headroom you'd need a 400 watt amp. But can the speakers handle 400 watts?  If they can’t then there is no real point to having one - extra headroom is always desirable but if the speakers can only handle a genuine 200 watts, then you can’t do much more. I am not talking about the manufacturer's spec which will be continuous RMS watts and not very meaningful but real-world power handling, Absent information from Revel it is hard to know. Perhaps you have this info from another source - a review maybe?

If indeed you are driving the Sunfires into clipping, which seems unlikely on the face of it, then the 600 watts of the XPR-2 could be beneficial, providing an additional 4.5dB of headroom.

My question would be - what makes you believe the speakers need more power than 200 watts?  And can the Revels handle more power?



Hi, I hear what your saying and I'm sure in a normal room my 200 WPC would be more than enough. My room is rather large 13x28. Someone. I know has the same Revel's and they can handle the power no problem. In my experience it"s the distortion speakers can't handle versus the power. Within limits of course. I guess I'm looking for a better sounding amp with more control. The Sunfire is good but there are better sounding ones. Also maybe the match is just wrong with my pre/pro, amp and room combo. I wish someone could comment on the XPR line without bringing their thoughts on my system into play, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. Thanks guys.

 

It's not so much the size of the room that is important but more how far you sit from the speakers. What is your distance from the speakers when listening normally?

 

If the speakers are showing distortion and it is a result of the amp, then the amp must be clipping (assuming it is not broken). The only way to know if the amp is clipping, without measuring gear, is to calculate the power it is being asked to deliver and for that we need to know the SPL you are listening at and the seating distance. Experience suggests that it is unlikely you are clipping the Sunfire, although it is possible. If you provide the information I asked for, we can work it out and see.

 

The Emotiva will absolutely, definitely, without question NOT be a "better sounding amp" than the Sunfire, or vice-versa. Both makes exhibit no audible distortions when working within their rated specs and there is nothing really in their specs that would make one believe that either amp will do anything other than take the input signal and output it entirely unchanged, other than in amplitude. The sole difference between them that could be important is that one allows for 4.5dB more headroom than the other. If you are running the Sunfire into clipping, then more power will solve that problem (so long as the speakers can handle it) - but I would be really surprised if you are clipping a good quality 200 watt amp.

 

I don't think you will get any comments on the XPR-2 simply because nobody here seems to yet own one. All we can tell you is that Emotiva have a very good reputation for selling very good amps at very good prices. I see no reason to believe the XPR-2 would be any different. But no matter how good it is, if you are not clipping the Sunfire, then you will hear zero difference from the XPR-2 and will have wasted money you could have spent elsewhere to better effect.

post #15613 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's not so much the size of the room that is important but more how far you sit from the speakers. What is your distance from the speakers when listening normally?

If the speakers are showing distortion and it is a result of the amp, then the amp must be clipping (assuming it is not broken). The only way to know if the amp is clipping, without measuring gear, is to calculate the power it is being asked to deliver and for that we need to know the SPL you are listening at and the seating distance. Experience suggests that it is unlikely you are clipping the Sunfire, although it is possible. If you provide the information I asked for, we can work it out and see.

The Emotiva will absolutely, definitely, without question NOT be a "better sounding amp" than the Sunfire, or vice-versa. Both makes exhibit no audible distortions when working within their rated specs and there is nothing really in their specs that would make one believe that either amp will do anything other than take the input signal and output it entirely unchanged, other than in amplitude. The sole difference between them that could be important is that one allows for 4.5dB more headroom than the other. If you are running the Sunfire into clipping, then more power will solve that problem (so long as the speakers can handle it) - but I would be really surprised if you are clipping a good quality 200 watt amp.

I don't think you will get any comments on the XPR-2 simply because nobody here seems to yet own one. All we can tell you is that Emotiva have a very good reputation for selling very good amps at very good prices. I see no reason to believe the XPR-2 would be any different. But no matter how good it is, if you are not clipping the Sunfire, then you will hear zero difference from the XPR-2 and will have wasted money you could have spent elsewhere to better effect.



Hi, I really appreciate your post. I'm beginning to rethink things when it comes to my amp. I think mainly what my setup is lacking is bass, because of where my fronts have to be. I'm sitting roughly 12 feet from them. I just did some more critical listening. The more I listen the more I realize how revealing my new additions are over what I had prior. Which was the PSB gold's and a Sunfire TGP-5 pre/pro. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more media dependent than I was before. My fronts drown out much of my bass at higher volumes. The mids and highs are really good. So since the Emotiva and my Sunfire are class H you think they will sound basically the same?

To add to this I never drive the amp to the point of clipping. I think I reach the limitations of my media at higher volumes. Most of my SACD's, DVD-A's and MSFL's sound really good. Where a lot of my regular media is breaking down.
Edited by comfynumb - 3/17/13 at 11:49am
post #15614 of 17194
I recently changed from the Sunfire 7400 to an Outlaw 7500 driving my Revels and I prefer the Outlaw.
I was able to do some comparison with my Salons before selling the Sunfire.

It is hard to describe but I feel the Outlaw is faster, cleaner, and has better bass control.
So in this case, I prefer 200 WPC over 400 WPC.
A very load listening levels the Outlaw maintained a distinct sound where the Sunfire got loud but was not a clear.
The Outlaw has as about 15 times better distortion ratings. The XPR about 5 times better.

I was also looking at the XPR-5 but I believe that XPA-3/XPA-3 would have been a good choice as well.
At this point, I am staying away from Rail switchers and going with big iron smile.gif


- Rich
post #15615 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's not so much the size of the room that is important but more how far you sit from the speakers. What is your distance from the speakers when listening normally?

If the speakers are showing distortion and it is a result of the amp, then the amp must be clipping (assuming it is not broken). The only way to know if the amp is clipping, without measuring gear, is to calculate the power it is being asked to deliver and for that we need to know the SPL you are listening at and the seating distance. Experience suggests that it is unlikely you are clipping the Sunfire, although it is possible. If you provide the information I asked for, we can work it out and see.

The Emotiva will absolutely, definitely, without question NOT be a "better sounding amp" than the Sunfire, or vice-versa. Both makes exhibit no audible distortions when working within their rated specs and there is nothing really in their specs that would make one believe that either amp will do anything other than take the input signal and output it entirely unchanged, other than in amplitude. The sole difference between them that could be important is that one allows for 4.5dB more headroom than the other. If you are running the Sunfire into clipping, then more power will solve that problem (so long as the speakers can handle it) - but I would be really surprised if you are clipping a good quality 200 watt amp.

I don't think you will get any comments on the XPR-2 simply because nobody here seems to yet own one. All we can tell you is that Emotiva have a very good reputation for selling very good amps at very good prices. I see no reason to believe the XPR-2 would be any different. But no matter how good it is, if you are not clipping the Sunfire, then you will hear zero difference from the XPR-2 and will have wasted money you could have spent elsewhere to better effect.



Hi, I really appreciate your post. I'm beginning to rethink things when it comes to my amp. I think mainly what my setup is lacking is bass, because of where my fronts have to be. I'm sitting roughly 12 feet from them. I just did some critical listening and my belief is my setup is very revealing over what I had prior. Which was the PSB gold's and a Sunfire TGP-5 pre/pro. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more media dependent than I was before. My fronts drown out much of my bass at higher volumes. The mids and highs are really good. So since the Emotiva and my Sunfire are class H you think they will sound basically the same?

To add to this I never drive the amp to the point of clipping. I think I reach the limitations of my media at higher volumes. Most of my SACD's, DVD-A's and MSFL's sound really good. Where a lot of my regular media is breaking down.

 

I think you are on the right lines by rethinking things. I am sure that the Emo and Sunfire will sound essentially identical because there is no reason to believe they won't. I have checked the specs of both and they both perform well within the audible limits of distortion (as one would expect of a decent quality SS amp these days). They both will essentially take an input signal and reproduce it without adding anything or subtracting anything, or doing anything audible to it other than make it louder. 

 

I believe that the problems lie in the room itself, so far as I can put together the clues in your various posts. And Audyssey finding the F3 at 250Hz tends to confirm this. If Audyssey is working as it should and it believes that you are 3dB down at 250Hz, it is easy to see why you feel you are lacking in bass!  What sub are you using?  You have a very, very good unit in the Marantz, very good speakers and a very good amp, so something is clearly not right as you should be experiencing a very satisfying sound.  You are crossing over to the sub at 80Hz so that shouldn’t be a problem based on the spec of the Revels. 

 

How have you set about integrating the sub into the system?  Normally I'd say to just use Audyssey and let that do its work and be done with it but something is causing Audyssey to flunk out and, so far, we don't know what it is. Do you have a SPL meter?  If so, then play the test tones from the Marantz from the MLP and see what levels the speakers and subs are reporting. You can use a free smartphone app for this as all we are doing is trying to get a rough idea. They should all be playing at 75dB. The sub may report as much as 5dB less than this due to inaccuracies in the SPL meter at the LF end. If all the speakers are reporting roughly 75dB and the sub is roughly 70dB, then probably things are set up OK wrt to SPLs. If not, make a note of the various trim settings first (so you can go back if necessary) and then adjust the trims so they all read 75dB. You'll have to use some judgement for the bass, but all we are trying to do here is get a rough idea of what is going on - for example if your mains are reading 85dB and your sub is reading 55dB, we have found the problem with no more work. But this is unlikely.

 

Are you able, temporarily, to move the speakers to a more suitable location, just so we can do some listening tests? If so I’d advise doing this and if the result is massively better then we know that it is the speaker placement that is the problem. Below about 400Hz you are really hearing much more of the room than you are of the speakers, and as it is the bass you have issues with, this is why I suspect placement problems. The room is the most influential factor at the bass end and speaker and sub placement is the next most influential factor. If you can put the speakers against one wall, suitably spaced, a couple of feet from the wall if possible, and try the sub in one of the front corners and/or somewhere between the speakers. If you are able to do a sub crawl first then this would be even better! If after all that, the system sounds as good as it should sound then at least you know what the problem is and you will also have saved yourself several hundred bucks on a new amp that will never fix a problem with the room. Incidentally, it might be worth re-running Audyssey with the speakers in this configuration/position and see if it now properly reports the F3. If it does, it will also set the distance and levels correctly and you will be surprise how very good XT32 is!  

 

Can you do a rough to-scale sketch of your room showing where the furniture is, where the speakers and sub are, where the openings, windows, doorways etc are and so on?  Nothing fancy - just a freehand drawing will do, with dimensions please. If you can scan this and upload it here, it will give me more info to go on and perhaps enable me to suggest more things you can try.

 

If you can do all of the above and then report back with your findings we can continue the troubleshooting. Whatever happens you will almost certainly need to have some form of EQ on the sub - Audyssey XT32 does a marvellous job of EQing the bass so normally I'd just suggest using that, but there are alternatives and we may need to consider them later depending on what your experiments show.

 

Don't give up - you have the makings of a great system - all you need to do is get it working as it should!

 

EDIT: you could also be sitting in a huge null. Temporarily relocating the speakers/sub should give us some clues there. But before you do anything, play something bass-heavy and move around the room. Is there a place where the bass suddenly sounds good?

post #15616 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think you are on the right lines by rethinking things. I am sure that the Emo and Sunfire will sound essentially identical because there is no reason to believe they won't. I have checked the specs of both and they both perform well within the audible limits of distortion (as one would expect of a decent quality SS amp these days). They both will essentially take an input signal and reproduce it without adding anything or subtracting anything, or doing anything audible to it other than make it louder. 

I believe that the problems lie in the room itself, so far as I can put together the clues in your various posts. And Audyssey finding the F3 at 250Hz tends to confirm this. If Audyssey is working as it should and it believes that you are 3dB down at 250Hz, it is easy to see why you feel you are lacking in bass!  What sub are you using?  You have a very, very good unit in the Marantz, very good speakers and a very good amp, so something is clearly not right as you should be experiencing a very satisfying sound.  You are crossing over to the sub at 80Hz so that shouldn’t be a problem based on the spec of the Revels. 

How have you set about integrating the sub into the system?  Normally I'd say to just use Audyssey and let that do its work and be done with it but something is causing Audyssey to flunk out and, so far, we don't know what it is. Do you have a SPL meter?  If so, then play the test tones from the Marantz from the MLP and see what levels the speakers and subs are reporting. You can use a free smartphone app for this as all we are doing is trying to get a rough idea. They should all be playing at 75dB. The sub may report as much as 5dB less than this due to inaccuracies in the SPL meter at the LF end. If all the speakers are reporting roughly 75dB and the sub is roughly 70dB, then probably things are set up OK wrt to SPLs. If not, make a note of the various trim settings first (so you can go back if necessary) and then adjust the trims so they all read 75dB. You'll have to use some judgement for the bass, but all we are trying to do here is get a rough idea of what is going on - for example if your mains are reading 85dB and your sub is reading 55dB, we have found the problem with no more work. But this is unlikely.

Are you able, temporarily, to move the speakers to a more suitable location, just so we can do some listening tests? If so I’d advise doing this and if the result is massively better then we know that it is the speaker placement that is the problem. Below about 400Hz you are really hearing much more of the room than you are of the speakers, and as it is the bass you have issues with, this is why I suspect placement problems. The room is the most influential factor at the bass end and speaker and sub placement is the next most influential factor. If you can put the speakers against one wall, suitably spaced, a couple of feet from the wall if possible, and try the sub in one of the front corners and/or somewhere between the speakers. If you are able to do a sub crawl first then this would be even better! If after all that, the system sounds as good as it should sound then at least you know what the problem is and you will also have saved yourself several hundred bucks on a new amp that will never fix a problem with the room. Incidentally, it might be worth re-running Audyssey with the speakers in this configuration/position and see if it now properly reports the F3. If it does, it will also set the distance and levels correctly and you will be surprise how very good XT32 is!  

Can you do a rough to-scale sketch of your room showing where the furniture is, where the speakers and sub are, where the openings, windows, doorways etc are and so on?  Nothing fancy - just a freehand drawing will do, with dimensions please. If you can scan this and upload it here, it will give me more info to go on and perhaps enable me to suggest more things you can try.

If you can do all of the above and then report back with your findings we can continue the troubleshooting. Whatever happens you will almost certainly need to have some form of EQ on the sub - Audyssey XT32 does a marvellous job of EQing the bass so normally I'd just suggest using that, but there are alternatives and we may need to consider them later depending on what your experiments show.

Don't give up - you have the makings of a great system - all you need to do is get it working as it should!

EDIT: you could also be sitting in a huge null. Temporarily relocating the speakers/sub should give us some clues there. But before you do anything, play something bass-heavy and move around the room. Is there a place where the bass suddenly sounds good?



My sub is a def tech supercube 1. To me it is ok for movies but to slow and boomy for music. I pulled it away from the wall a few inches and it sounds a little better. But I want to go with a two sub setup, possibly passive. I think this would solve my bass problems. As you suggested I moved the fronts around a bit, pulled them a little farther from the wall and toed them wider apart. This seemed to help.
post #15617 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I recently changed from the Sunfire 7400 to an Outlaw 7500 driving my Revels and I prefer the Outlaw.
I was able to do some comparison with my Salons before selling the Sunfire.

It is hard to describe but I feel the Outlaw is faster, cleaner, and has better bass control.
So in this case, I prefer 200 WPC over 400 WPC.
A very load listening levels the Outlaw maintained a distinct sound where the Sunfire got loud but was not a clear.
The Outlaw has as about 15 times better distortion ratings. The XPR about 5 times better.

I was also looking at the XPR-5 but I believe that XPA-3/XPA-3 would have been a good choice as well.
At this point, I am staying away from Rail switchers and going with big iron smile.gif


- Rich

 

The distortion ratings don't mean anything once the distortion levels are beneath the point of audibility. This is common for all modern SS amps that I have ever seen specs for.

post #15618 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The distortion ratings don't mean anything once the distortion levels are beneath the point of audibility. This is common for all modern SS amps that I have ever seen specs for.

It depends where that distortion is.
Tube amps distort differently from tube amps.

Some SS amps have larger power supplies, more capacitance, more output devices.
This is the case when comparing an XPA-5 and Outlaw 7500 even with similar power specs.
The Outlaw has less distortion and with more output devices should produce less heat at the same volume level.

It does not mean this will be audible.

But as you move up the Emo XPA line you find more of the above.

What were they thinking tongue.gif

I have had the opportunity to compare amps in my home with <1 minute switch time and this is my experience.
Others were present and drew the same conclusion.

- Rich
post #15619 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The distortion ratings don't mean anything once the distortion levels are beneath the point of audibility. This is common for all modern SS amps that I have ever seen specs for.

It depends where that distortion is.
Tube amps distort differently from tube amps.

Some SS amps have larger power supplies, more capacitance, more output devices.
This is the case when comparing an XPA-5 and Outlaw 7500 even with similar power specs.
The Outlaw has less distortion and with more output devices should produce less heat at the same volume level.

It does not mean this will be audible.

But as you move up the Emo XPA line you find more of the above.

What were they thinking tongue.gif

I have had the opportunity to compare amps in my home with <1 minute switch time and this is my experience.
Others were present and drew the same conclusion.

- Rich

 

I was only referencing SS amps wrt to distortion. I think the main point is that you say "it does not mean this will be audible". If it isn't audible then it doesn’t matter and we can ignore it. Theoretically an amp that has distortion of, say, 0.01% is ten times better than an amp that has distortion of 0.1%. But as neither amounts of distortion is audible, the first amp performs no better in reality than the second amp. That's really what I was meaning. Of course, marketing departments may choose to try to convince us otherwise ;)

post #15620 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I was only referencing SS amps wrt to distortion. I think the main point is that you say "it does not mean this will be audible". If it isn't audible then it doesn’t matter and we can ignore it. Theoretically an amp that has distortion of, say, 0.01% is ten times better than an amp that has distortion of 0.1%. But as neither amounts of distortion is audible, the first amp performs no better in reality than the second amp. That's really what I was meaning. Of course, marketing departments may choose to try to convince us otherwise wink.gif

The Sunfire's 0.5% distortion which many have said does not make a difference, but I am not so sure.

There is a difference between the Sunfire 7400 and Outlaw 7500 when driving my Revels.
I picked my favorite. Something is audible.
For the lack of anything better, I'll call it speed and compression, but that is just an opinion.
It is not backed with the full force of and veracity of a marketing department.

- Rich
post #15621 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

It depends where that distortion is.
Tube amps distort differently from tube amps.

Some SS amps have larger power supplies, more capacitance, more output devices.
This is the case when comparing an XPA-5 and Outlaw 7500 even with similar power specs.
The Outlaw has less distortion and with more output devices should produce less heat at the same volume level.

It does not mean this will be audible.

But as you move up the Emo XPA line you find more of the above.

What were they thinking tongue.gif

I have had the opportunity to compare amps in my home with <1 minute switch time and this is my experience.
Others were present and drew the same conclusion.

- Rich

As soon as the distortion levels reach the lower limits of the human hearing capabilities it really doesn't matter, what the leftover distortions are. You can't hear them anyway.
Thus any detectable differences must then be attributable to something else, like impedance mismatch between speaker an output transformer (problematic for tube amps) etc. Clipping, different noise levels and character, if any.
post #15622 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi, I really appreciate your post. I'm beginning to rethink things when it comes to my amp. I think mainly what my setup is lacking is bass, because of where my fronts have to be. I'm sitting roughly 12 feet from them. I just did some more critical listening. The more I listen the more I realize how revealing my new additions are over what I had prior. Which was the PSB gold's and a Sunfire TGP-5 pre/pro. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more media dependent than I was before. My fronts drown out much of my bass at higher volumes. The mids and highs are really good. So since the Emotiva and my Sunfire are class H you think they will sound basically the same?

To add to this I never drive the amp to the point of clipping. I think I reach the limitations of my media at higher volumes. Most of my SACD's, DVD-A's and MSFL's sound really good. Where a lot of my regular media is breaking down.

Treat the room first to deal with the bass issues.
Then if you want a different sound from class H (BTW the XPRs are not really class H like the sunfires are but that is for another topic)
Look at the XPA-1L as an option.
post #15623 of 17194
Hey All,
Just recently got into the HT scene and I’m looking for a little bit of advice. My setup consists of an Onkyo TX-NR818 and an older Emotiva LPA-1 amplifier (5x125wpc; 2x50wpc).
When I went to hook up the amp, everything works (and sounds) great other than the 12v trigger from the Onkyo TX-NR818 to the LPA-1. I’ve tried two different stereo cables and a mono cable with no success thus far. I know Onkyo doesn’t have main 12v triggers, so I’ve tried the zone 2 and zone 3 triggers without any success.

I borrowed a Volt Meter from a friend who is an electrical engineer, the Onkyo is putting out between 12.4v and 12.6v on both zones and the LPA-1 will trigger when a 9v battery is touched to wires. I think we’ve tried just about everything we can think of to get it work – does anyone have any other suggestions?

The specs on the amp say that is triggers on anything between 5-12v; is the extra .4-.6 the Onkyo is putting out too much to trigger it?

Thanks for the help!
post #15624 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

As soon as the distortion levels reach the lower limits of the human hearing capabilities it really doesn't matter, what the leftover distortions are. You can't hear them anyway.
Thus any detectable differences must then be attributable to something else, like impedance mismatch between speaker an output transformer (problematic for tube amps) etc. Clipping, different noise levels and character, if any.

Why should an amp that has low THD, low IMD, and plenty of power have a different character.
I posed a theory that it was the seed at which it delivers current, at least to my speakers that reach down to 3 ohms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Treat the room first to deal with the bass issues.
Then if you want a different sound from class H (BTW the XPRs are not really class H like the sunfires are but that is for another topic)
Look at the XPA-1L as an option.

This is good advice but once again, if THD tells the story, then there no reason to buy the XPA-1L and run it in Class-A mode.

I do not understand these two positions.
If an amp A has a different sound than amp B and they are operating within their limits,
then one or both of them is inaccurate. Right?

In my evaluation of the Outlaw 7500 I found it harsh and lacking in dynamics plugged into the Furman Elite 15 PFI amplifier plug.
When I plugged it into the wall, it sounds fantastic clean, clear, dynamic.
I know folks with Parasound Halo amps that find no problem at all with the Furman.
So, if we are all correct, then the Outlaw was more sensitive to power and whatever the Furman did, it was harmful to the Outlaw's performance.


- Rich
post #15625 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadwick537 View Post

Hey All,
Just recently got into the HT scene and I’m looking for a little bit of advice. My setup consists of an Onkyo TX-NR818 and an older Emotiva LPA-1 amplifier (5x125wpc; 2x50wpc).
When I went to hook up the amp, everything works (and sounds) great other than the 12v trigger from the Onkyo TX-NR818 to the LPA-1. I’ve tried two different stereo cables and a mono cable with no success thus far. I know Onkyo doesn’t have main 12v triggers, so I’ve tried the zone 2 and zone 3 triggers without any success.

I borrowed a Volt Meter from a friend who is an electrical engineer, the Onkyo is putting out between 12.4v and 12.6v on both zones and the LPA-1 will trigger when a 9v battery is touched to wires. I think we’ve tried just about everything we can think of to get it work – does anyone have any other suggestions?

The specs on the amp say that is triggers on anything between 5-12v; is the extra .4-.6 the Onkyo is putting out too much to trigger it?

Thanks for the help!

 

I am not familiar with the 818, but my older Onkyo 5007 had this weird sort of trigger arrangement. The only way to get it work the way you want it to work was like this (you do need a programmable remote though, like my Harmony):

 

 

 
Zone 2 trigger to activate a power amp
 
What I did was:
1. Teach the Harmony one the command to turn on and off Zone 2.
a. In the Harmony control program, go to the devices tab, select the receiver and click the "learn IR" button.
b. Go down to the list and in the "Learn New Command" box enter the name you want for Zone2ON and click the "learn" button.
c. Follow the program instructions and on the original receiver remote, press the Zone button once (it turns red) and then press the ON button. The Harmony should have now acknowledged the key press and learned the command.
d. Back in the learn page, enter the name for Zone2OFF and click "learn".
e. Without pressing anything else, press the STANDBY button on the original remote. Another command learned.
 
2. Now teach the Harmony remote that the receiver needs further commands to turn on and off:
a. Go back to the devices screen in the Harmony control program and click on the "Settings" button for the receiver.
b. Select "adjust power settings" from the list and click next.
c. Go to the "Which command will Power On your device?" and select "My device needs more than one command to turn it on and off."
d. Select Zone2ON as the second command needed.
e. Do the same for "Which command will Power Off your device?" now selecting Zone2OFF as second power off command.
 
3. Update your remote. Connect the trigger to your power amp, make necessary adjustments. And you're all set!
========================
 
On the Onkyo remote, you first have to hit the Zone2/3 button on the top of the remote to get into Zone2/3 mode - if the Zone button turns Red, then you're in Zone 2 mode. Hit the Zone button again and it turns Green, meaning you're in Zone 3. Keep in mind that the Zone button remembers what Zone it's been set to before (so pressing it once may turn it Green, for instance).
 
Now, once you set the particular zone using the above instructions, you can press ON, and if you're in Zone 2 (Red), Zone 2 will turn on. Same idea to turn Zone 2 Off- press STANDBY while Zone 2 is Red. That particular Zone's 12V trigger fires too.
 
I memorized these IR commands with my Harmony 1100. The key to all this is that the Zone button does not send an IR command, it only sets the following button presses to operate in that Zone. So to memorize (for instance) "Zone2On" IR command in the Harmony, you must first press the Zone button until it lights Red, then press ON. The Harmony will memorize that ON as being for Zone 2. Do the same thing for "Zone2Off" and Zone3 if you want.
 
================================
post #15626 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Treat the room first to deal with the bass issues.
Then if you want a different sound from class H (BTW the XPRs are not really class H like the sunfires are but that is for another topic)
Look at the XPA-1L as an option.



I looked into into the XPA a little bit, I believe they are class A. It's going to be tough to treat my room, there are many obstacles. But if I can get the bass part of the problem partially solved I'm all for that. I'm going to invest in two subs and see what happens. I have a lot of good sound at higher listening levels, it's just my bass that gets drowned out.
post #15627 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I looked into into the XPA a little bit, I believe they are class A. It's going to be tough to treat my room, there are many obstacles. But if I can get the bass part of the problem partially solved I'm all for that. I'm going to invest in two subs and see what happens. I have a lot of good sound at higher listening levels, it's just my bass that gets drowned out.

The XPA-1 was class-A to the first 10 watts.

The XPA-1L is optionally class-A to 35 watts temperature permitting.
It will go into A/B mode if It is getting too hot. Makes you wonder if there is a time limit to the 35 watts.

- Rich
post #15628 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The XPA-1 was class-A to the first 10 watts.

The XPA-1L is optionally class-A to 35 watts temperature permitting.
It will go into A/B mode if It is getting too hot. Makes you wonder if there is a time limit to the 35 watts.






You are the amplifier king Rich smile.gif

Edited by comfynumb - 3/18/13 at 1:17pm
post #15629 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Why should an amp that has low THD, low IMD, and plenty of power have a different character.
I posed a theory that it was the seed at which it delivers current, at least to my speakers that reach down to 3 ohms.
This is good advice but once again, if THD tells the story, then there no reason to buy the XPA-1L and run it in Class-A mode.

I do not understand these two positions.
If an amp A has a different sound than amp B and they are operating within their limits,
then one or both of them is inaccurate. Right?

In my evaluation of the Outlaw 7500 I found it harsh and lacking in dynamics plugged into the Furman Elite 15 PFI amplifier plug.
When I plugged it into the wall, it sounds fantastic clean, clear, dynamic.
I know folks with Parasound Halo amps that find no problem at all with the Furman.
So, if we are all correct, then the Outlaw was more sensitive to power and whatever the Furman did, it was harmful to the Outlaw's performance.


- Rich

So when you heard a difference with your Outlaw amp did THD measure any differently or was the amp spec still the same?
post #15630 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

So when you heard a difference with your Outlaw amp did THD measure any differently or was the amp spec still the same?

Outlaw 7500: 200 WPC THD .03% (class a/b)
Sunfire 7400: 400 WPC THD .5% (class h)

- Rich
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