or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 524

post #15691 of 17194
Was lurking in the UMC-200 "quirks" thread at the Lounge and noticed this post:

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=29354&page=1#507608
Quote:
I asked a friend if I could try out his UMC-200 for a day to see how it worked in my system. I did all the calibrations manually so I’d be sure to have the same basic crossovers, gains, EQ, and delays I usually use. Here’s what I found:

1) I first confirmed the channel gains with the internal noise. Then I did my EQ settings, and rechecked the gains. They read exactly the same. Turns out the internal noise is not passing through the EQ, so the only way to get the channels calibrated (manually) when EQ is used, is to play an external test disc. No problem, except while it’s playing you cannot trim the gains, as that menu activates the internal noise. I believe others have already commented on this. It was easy to work around it.

2) Some “digi-buzz” was heard from the speakers. It was not a ground loop, as it was not mains hum, and also hitting Mute totally silenced it. The same is buzz heard from the headphone jack. It is much lower when the digital source is not detected, as then there’s some other muting happening, but as soon as some playback starts, even silent audio, the buzz starts, and if you pause the source, the buzz hangs on for a second before it mutes.

3) I like these new HDMI chips. No wild flashing when switching between sources. The screen just goes black, then the new source comes up. But I did have a handful of occasions over the day where the screen went blue while switching from one area on a Blu-ray to another, like from the trailers to the main menu. Switching to another source went to the other source, but back to the BD was still blue. A Stand-by recycle cleared it each time. This was with an Oppo 93, connected with AudioQuest Chocolate that works fine with the other gear.

4) Even though I have a 7.1 setup, I was playing some 5.1 content and noticed that (except for Dolby D), there is no way to hear the basic 5.1 track with the EQ turned on. The surround modes do not offer a basic 5.1 mode other than Direct, and Direct bypasses the EQ.

5) When I played a DVD with DDEX content, I was not able to select PLIIz for a better 7.1 experience as I can with other units. If I changed the player from bitstream to PCM, of course then I could do so.

6) I noticed that when I switched from PLIIz Movie mode to Music mode, the overall volume dropped by 3 dB. Seems odd and unnecessary. BTW, is there a menu for the Music settings (center width, etc)? I did not find it.

7) I was playing a Phil Collins track, “That’s just the way it is” which starts off with a series of single percussion taps. I felt like I was hearing an echo from the surrounds in PLIIz Music. When I switched to Direct, it disappeared. I never hear any such echo from other units. I tried adding some extra distance to the rear speakers, and when I got another 19 feet on top of what was already there, the taps were in perfect sync. That means there's about 17 ms of delay in those rear speakers that should not be there, as it’s not part of the PLIIz process.

8) Switched over to try the headphone output. At first I wondered why it sounded so weird. Took me a while to realize that the headphone jack presents a stereo downmix of whatever surround mode is selected for the main outputs. So I switched to Direct mode and that was much cleaner, but it had no deep bass. So I ran a response sweep and found it rolling off <80 Hz (red curve), which happened to be where I set the main L/R speaker crossover. When I switched the L/R speakers to Large, the response became full range (violet). The Stereo mode was the same. All good. But when I checked to see if the Small setting also affected the Stereo mode, I got a rather wild response (green). Dunno what that’s about.

Anyway, if you are using headphones, you have to remember to choose the Stereo or Direct mode, make sure the L/R speakers are set to large, then either turn off the EQ or choose an EQ setting you made for the headphones. You can't just "plug and play" the headphones without changing a lot of stuff – then remember to change it back when you use speakers again.

I am certain none of these issues are isolated to this one unit. Kinda makes me wonder if anyone really tests this stuff. I found it all in one day without really trying.

img

This is what Audioholics gave its 'Product of the Year' award to?
post #15692 of 17194
Go back and read the thread, some of things were his fault, other stuff he did not understand settings. Sounds like 8 is the only real issue.
post #15693 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Go back and read the thread, some of things were his fault, other stuff he did not understand settings. Sounds like 8 is the only real issue.

...apart from the other issues that are listed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuxeV72wzf-SdEFOSEJvRUNPbXRqZlE4WGsxRjNNQVE#gid=0
post #15694 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I don't think you missed anything smile.gif. My point was if proper testing was done then there would not be a recall. But from what I read over at The Lounge the initial batch of amps were tested but not the amps that have issues. So it seems that testing was done on some of the XPA-1Ls. It could possibly be a QC issue but who knows.

Bill

Is it possible that Onkyo did not properly test AVR's for 3 generations. How could a company this large have so many quality issues?
post #15695 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Is it possible that Onkyo did not properly test AVR's for 3 generations. How could a company this large have so many quality issues?

Probably for the same reasons why small companies like Emotiva or Outlaw have so many quality issues.
post #15696 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I don't think you missed anything smile.gif. My point was if proper testing was done then there would not be a recall. But from what I read over at The Lounge the initial batch of amps were tested but not the amps that have issues. So it seems that testing was done on some of the XPA-1Ls. It could possibly be a QC issue but who knows.

Bill

Is it possible that Onkyo did not properly test AVR's for 3 generations. How could a company this large have so many quality issues?

 

Does the assumption that Onkyo's QC isn't too good somehow negate or counteract Emotiva's QC being not too good then?  Is it OK for Emo to have QC issues so long as Onkyo does too?

 

Not sure I am following your line of thought here...

post #15697 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Go back and read the thread, some of things were his fault, other stuff he did not understand settings. Sounds like 8 is the only real issue.

 

Points 1,3,5,6, and 7 don't seem to have been 'corrected'.

 

Then in the next post I read:

 

"The UMC-200 clearly has firmware issues. Maybe more extensive than revealed so far. Hope Emo takes their time with the fix, and doesn't rush out a partial solution."

 

I hope it isn’t going to be the UMC-1 all over again... 

 

Much as I love Emotiva for their amps, I'd have to say, on the basis of reports like the one above, and the page Markus links to, stick with the major players if you’re looking for a pre-pro. Or choose an AVR that has preouts.

post #15698 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

...apart from the other issues that are listed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuxeV72wzf-SdEFOSEJvRUNPbXRqZlE4WGsxRjNNQVE#gid=0
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Go back and read the thread, some of things were his fault, other stuff he did not understand settings. Sounds like 8 is the only real issue.

Items 2 and 4 are now marked as non issues in that thread.
post #15699 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

...apart from the other issues that are listed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuxeV72wzf-SdEFOSEJvRUNPbXRqZlE4WGsxRjNNQVE#gid=0

...and Emotiva did say they are reading them.
Lets hope they act on the ones they can reproduce easily.
As we have seen in just he last two posts, sometimes issues are not really issues, and some (like the headphone outs) are real flaws.
post #15700 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

...apart from the other issues that are listed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuxeV72wzf-SdEFOSEJvRUNPbXRqZlE4WGsxRjNNQVE#gid=0

...and Emotiva did say they are reading them.
Lets hope they act on the ones they can reproduce easily.
As we have seen in just he last two posts, sometimes issues are not really issues, and some (like the headphone outs) are real flaws.

 

All but two of the 8 points raised seem to be real issues though. Any one of the 6 remaining points would put me off the unit I'm afraid.

post #15701 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

All but two of the 8 points raised seem to be real issues though. Any one of the 6 remaining points would put me off the unit I'm afraid.

really?
Lets be honest here.
You (and most of us regulars here) have no intentions of replacing anything you (we) own with a UMC-200 anyway. wink.gif

So how can you really be put off?
post #15702 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Is it possible that Onkyo did not properly test AVR's for 3 generations. How could a company this large have so many quality issues?

Do you have numbers that indicate the failure rate of Onkyo's AVRs? I would agree that Onkyo has had issues with their AVR/prepros but unless you can show actual numbers to those that had issues to those that did not then your point is not very valid. The other point is that the certain XPA-1Ls are having issues right away. The biggest issue with the Onkyo's was I believe a cable or HDMI board (please correct me if I'm wrong). Those issues happened for most after many hours of use not right away. So the point is even if Onkyo did or did not do extensive testing the issue would not have surfaced. The issue with the Onkyos was clearly the use of inferior parts which surfaced after many hours of use. Onkyo is not know for their service but they did repair all units even when out of warranty which is somewhat positive. I owned three Onkyos (805, 885 and 886) and never had a single issue with either one.

No A/V company puts out perfect products that is for sure. But how many times can Emotiva release products with obvious issues that a basic beta test would have found quite easily? If beta testing was done then issues surface after a larger release of units indicates QC issues in production IMO.

Bill
post #15703 of 17194
And how many sales does Onkyo have vs Emotiva? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? The higher the volume the more deceptively dire the reports of quality control issues.
post #15704 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

All but two of the 8 points raised seem to be real issues though. Any one of the 6 remaining points would put me off the unit I'm afraid.

really?
Lets be honest here.
You (and most of us regulars here) have no intentions of replacing anything you (we) own with a UMC-200 anyway. wink.gif

So how can you really be put off?

 

That's true - there is no way I would consider replacing my Onkyo 5009 with the UMC-200 (or with anything else currently available TBH). What I was trying to say was that if I was in the market for a new pre-pro, those issues raised in the post we're discussing (and in the other post Markus linked to) would put me off the UMC-200. I'd rather go for a major brand AVR that has preouts (the price difference between the 5009 and the UMC-200 makes it an unfair comparison). If I wanted to keep costs down I'd probably choose the Onkyo 818 simply because it has the top-of-the-line Audyssey room correction - XT32. I've seen that on sale for about $700.

post #15705 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Is it possible that Onkyo did not properly test AVR's for 3 generations. How could a company this large have so many quality issues?

Do you have numbers that indicate the failure rate of Onkyo's AVRs? I would agree that Onkyo has had issues with their AVR/prepros but unless you can show actual numbers to those that had issues to those that did not then your point is not very valid. The other point is that the certain XPA-1Ls are having issues right away. The biggest issue with the Onkyo's was I believe a cable or HDMI board (please correct me if I'm wrong). Those issues happened for most after many hours of use not right away. So the point is even if Onkyo did or did not do extensive testing the issue would not have surfaced. The issue with the Onkyos was clearly the use of inferior parts which surfaced after many hours of use. Onkyo is not know for their service but they did repair all units even when out of warranty which is somewhat positive. I owned three Onkyos (805, 885 and 886) and never had a single issue with either one.

No A/V company puts out perfect products that is for sure. But how many times can Emotiva release products with obvious issues that a basic beta test would have found quite easily? If beta testing was done then issues surface after a larger release of units indicates QC issues in production IMO.

Bill

 

Yes Bill - the two main faults that Onkyos have had in recent times have been the IDE cable thing (that one is fairly old now) and the HDMI board failure problem. Both showed up after many months of use - typically 18 to 24 months, so they could not have been 'caught' at the factory prior to release. This is quite different to units showing problems immediately after release, as you say. I should add that not ALL Onkyo units in the affected model range had these problems - I, for example, had a 5007 and that never showed any signs of trouble with the HDMI board (or the IDE cable but that may have not affected my model). 

 

Mudcat is, I think, making the point that the HDMI board problem appeared in 3 generations of Onkyo, but given the production life cycle of their models, this would be expected. Onkyo introduce a new model every year, so if the problem first appeared 18-24 months into the life cycle of Generation 1, Generation 2 would have already been on the dealers' shelves for at least 6 months before anyone knew of the problem and by the time it had been reported often enough to be recognised as a real issue and investigated, Generation 3 would already have left the factory.  I expect Mudcat realises this and is perhaps being a little disingenuous in order to reinforce whatever point he was trying to make.  


Edited by kbarnes701 - 3/22/13 at 7:54am
post #15706 of 17194
It looks like Emotiva has a pretty good tester call: srrndhound. smile.gif
They should make him one of their beta testers.

- Rich
post #15707 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

really?
Lets be honest here.
You (and most of us regulars here) have no intentions of replacing anything you (we) own with a UMC-200 anyway. wink.gif

So how can you really be put off?

If you are here to answer questions, then you should. Answer the 8 points.
post #15708 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

really?
Lets be honest here.
You (and most of us regulars here) have no intentions of replacing anything you (we) own with a UMC-200 anyway. wink.gif

So how can you really be put off?

I certainly have no intention of replacing my 4311 with the UMC-200. But the issues with the UMC-200 have relevance to the upcoming release of the XMC-1. I'm very interested in the XMC-1 and if Emotiva has issues with the UMC-200 then I can only imagine the issues the XMC-1 could possibly have. By that I mean on paper the XMC-1 looks to be much more complicated than the fairly basic UMC-200. So whether or not someone is put off by the issues of the UMC-200 is up to the individual. I don't think it has any bearing on whether that person will be buying or not buying the UMC-200. One can have an opinion on the state of the UMC-200 either way IMO smile.gif.

Bill
post #15709 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

If you are here to answer questions, then you should. Answer the 8 points.

You mean six right because I pointed out that two were user error.
(you can check the original post at the emotive site and see the corrections.

HDMI issues really affect everyone in one way or another, so we are now down to five?
IMO the headphone one is one that has my head scratching.
I mean how could they miss that? smile.gif
post #15710 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I certainly have no intention of replacing my 4311 with the UMC-200. But the issues with the UMC-200 have relevance to the upcoming release of the XMC-1. I'm very interested in the XMC-1 and if Emotiva has issues with the UMC-200 then I can only imagine the issues the XMC-1 could possibly have. By that I mean on paper the XMC-1 looks to be much more complicated than the fairly basic UMC-200. So whether or not someone is put off by the issues of the UMC-200 is up to the individual. I don't think it has any bearing on whether that person will be buying or not buying the UMC-200. One can have an opinion on the state of the UMC-200 either way IMO smile.gif.

Bill

I know what you mean but these are so different in terms of platform that I can't in good conscious make that direct comparison.
I can however conclude that Emotive really needs to work on their beta testing.
The UMC was given to a few mods there and they didn't find the headphone issue?
OK that is more reflective on the user base, but real world testing is not Emotiva's strong suit.
They should IMO do an extensive beta program like oppo does.
That will really flesh out these quirks.

I just don't know why they don't do this.
post #15711 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Items 2 and 4 are now marked as non issues in that thread.
Sure, but item 4 still makes me wonder about some of the thinking going on there, sorta like how their previous pre-pro did bass management after time alignment. With the UMC-1, did no one stop to think that combining bass from channels with different delays could lead to phase problems? Likewise, with the UMC-200, if you want to listen to a 5.1 PCM track without any surround processing, did someone think that "All Stereo" was the right name for that mode? This isn't a technical problem, because once you know which mode to choose it is no longer an issue, but it does make me scratch my head about some of the deliberate choices they made.
post #15712 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I know what you mean but these are so different in terms of platform that I can't in good conscious make that direct comparison.
I can however conclude that Emotive really needs to work on their beta testing.
The UMC was given to a few mods there and they didn't find the headphone issue?
OK that is more reflective on the user base, but real world testing is not Emotiva's strong suit.
They should IMO do an extensive beta program like oppo does.
That will really flesh out these quirks.

I just don't know why they don't do this.

In my opinon the difference in the two platforms between the UMC-200 and the XMC-1 doesn't matter. The point I was trying to make was that if the fairly basic UMC-200 has issues a more complex XMC-1 could be worse. The fact that the XMC-1 has been delayed indefinitely leads me to believe this to be true. I think beta testing as Oppo does it would be a huge step in the right direction. But in my totally uneducated opinon I am starting to believe the bigger issue is quality control at the facilities where these prepros are made. What else could it be when some owners of the UMC-1 and the UMC-200 do not have issues and others do. I know quite a bit has to do with the components in signal chain but that can only be blamed so much.

Bill
post #15713 of 17194
I'd be surprised if the XMC-1 becomes available this year. Emotiva's amps and speakers are good products but they have a poor track record with processors. I still might pick up a UMC-200 but it won't be for a complex setup but for a PC-based setup using active monitors.
post #15714 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

In my opinon the difference in the two platforms between the UMC-200 and the XMC-1 doesn't matter. The point I was trying to make was that if the fairly basic UMC-200 has issues a more complex XMC-1 could be worse. The fact that the XMC-1 has been delayed indefinitely leads me to believe this to be true. I think beta testing as Oppo does it would be a huge step in the right direction. But in my totally uneducated opinon I am starting to believe the bigger issue is quality control at the facilities where these prepros are made. What else could it be when some owners of the UMC-1 and the UMC-200 do not have issues and others do. I know quite a bit has to do with the components in signal chain but that can only be blamed so much.

Bill

I think you may be right. The XPA-1L recall does tend to support your theory on possible OC issues back at China.
Big Dan has stated that he wants to start moving some production back to the US.
Besides fuel/shipping costs maybe they are starting to lose some QC control over at the Chinese facilities.

As far as the XMC delays, anyone heard from Boz?
Maybe that is the delay?
(just pure speculation on my part. Don't want to start any rumors.tongue.gif )
Edited by bootman_head_fi - 3/23/13 at 5:20am
post #15715 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

I'd be surprised if the XMC-1 becomes available this year. Emotiva's amps and speakers are good products but they have a poor track record with processors. I still might pick up a UMC-200 but it won't be for a complex setup but for a PC-based setup using active monitors.

I have all but given up hope on that prepro myself about a year ago.
The only Emotiva products that interest me now are the XPR amps and that XPA-1L that they just recalled.
post #15716 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I have all but given up hope on that prepro myself about a year ago.
The only Emotiva products that interest me now are the XPR amps and that XPA-1L that they just recalled.



I'm set with my pre/pro for awhile I just purchased the new Marantz. I was interested in the amp they recalled also. Not that Emo handled this wrong, but it kind of turns me off that the XPA-1L had problems and the company didn't even know about it. Do you own any of their other products?
post #15717 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm set with my pre/pro for awhile I just purchased the new Marantz. I was interested in the amp they recalled also. Not that Emo handled this wrong, but it kind of turns me off that the XPA-1L had problems and the company didn't even know about it. Do you own any of their other products?

I have owned the original UMC-1, the LMC-1, the LPA-1 amp and the XPA-5 amp during various times.
They are all gone now and I'm currently with a Pioneer AVR. (I have since downsized my system greatly with a smaller space now)
I'm in the market for a used 4311 (they are poping up everywhere now with the 4250 out) but honestly I'm in no rush.
I actually prefer two channel music with cans vs speakers so I'm seriously looking at getting a stax setup this year and may do that instead of the 4311 upgrade.
Movies are ok with my current setup.
post #15718 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I certainly have no intention of replacing my 4311 with the UMC-200. But the issues with the UMC-200 have relevance to the upcoming release of the XMC-1. I'm very interested in the XMC-1 and if Emotiva has issues with the UMC-200 then I can only imagine the issues the XMC-1 could possibly have. By that I mean on paper the XMC-1 looks to be much more complicated than the fairly basic UMC-200. So whether or not someone is put off by the issues of the UMC-200 is up to the individual. I don't think it has any bearing on whether that person will be buying or not buying the UMC-200. One can have an opinion on the state of the UMC-200 either way IMO smile.gif.

Bill

I know what you mean but these are so different in terms of platform that I can't in good conscious make that direct comparison.
I can however conclude that Emotive really needs to work on their beta testing.
The UMC was given to a few mods there and they didn't find the headphone issue?
OK that is more reflective on the user base, but real world testing is not Emotiva's strong suit.
They should IMO do an extensive beta program like oppo does.
That will really flesh out these quirks.

I just don't know why they don't do this.

 

I think that is a great idea. It fits right in with Emotiva's 'family' philosophy too. I wonder why they haven't considered it? ;)

post #15719 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Items 2 and 4 are now marked as non issues in that thread.
Sure, but item 4 still makes me wonder about some of the thinking going on there, sorta like how their previous pre-pro did bass management after time alignment. With the UMC-1, did no one stop to think that combining bass from channels with different delays could lead to phase problems? Likewise, with the UMC-200, if you want to listen to a 5.1 PCM track without any surround processing, did someone think that "All Stereo" was the right name for that mode? This isn't a technical problem, because once you know which mode to choose it is no longer an issue, but it does make me scratch my head about some of the deliberate choices they made.

 

Especially given that some of us wouldn't touch "all channel stereo" with a 50 foot barge pole... ;)  If I had a UMC-200 I'd never even have thought for one second to use that mode for any reason. Weird.

post #15720 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I know what you mean but these are so different in terms of platform that I can't in good conscious make that direct comparison.
I can however conclude that Emotive really needs to work on their beta testing.
The UMC was given to a few mods there and they didn't find the headphone issue?
OK that is more reflective on the user base, but real world testing is not Emotiva's strong suit.
They should IMO do an extensive beta program like oppo does.
That will really flesh out these quirks.

I just don't know why they don't do this.

In my opinon the difference in the two platforms between the UMC-200 and the XMC-1 doesn't matter. The point I was trying to make was that if the fairly basic UMC-200 has issues a more complex XMC-1 could be worse. The fact that the XMC-1 has been delayed indefinitely leads me to believe this to be true. I think beta testing as Oppo does it would be a huge step in the right direction. But in my totally uneducated opinon I am starting to believe the bigger issue is quality control at the facilities where these prepros are made. What else could it be when some owners of the UMC-1 and the UMC-200 do not have issues and others do. I know quite a bit has to do with the components in signal chain but that can only be blamed so much.

Bill

 

Concurred, Bill. We have said this before - amps/speakers = easy, prepros = hard. I can see why Emotiva pursue the prepros, so they have an 'end to end' solution for their customers, but what they don't seem to understand is that there's a reason why prepros are expensive. It doesn't fit their ethos to offer an expensive prepro, but we have seen what happens when they offer an inexpensive one. IMO anyone wanting to use Emo amps would be well advised to consider a lower cost AVR with preouts from a mainstream manufacturer. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY]