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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 529

post #15841 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

I think what marshhog was asking is how to bi amp the towers. Unless I read wrong.

I just reread his OP and I do believe you are correct.
If that is the case, I wouldn't even bother and get a XPA-3 instead.
You can find a used one for close to the same price as a new UPA-500.
post #15842 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yeah - if it sounds harsh prior to warm-up then it is clearly some form of distortion in the upper FR. I guess I could measure the FR hot and cold and see if it measures any different. If it doesn't I am probably going nuts. smile.gif

We post WAY too much on internet forums.
I think that ship has sailed and we are all on it..tongue.gif

 

:)  No question.... :)

post #15843 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yeah - if it sounds harsh prior to warm-up then it is clearly some form of distortion in the upper FR. I guess I could measure the FR hot and cold and see if it measures any different. If it doesn't I am probably going nuts. smile.gif
My advice would be, why bother?
You hear what you hear and you're able to repeat it, so why not just accept and enjoy it!

I too have definite opinions on things like cables that I proved to myself through extensive reading(not of marketing copy) and experimentation.
For speaker cables as long as the gauge is heavy enough, the copper is high quality and the terminations are solid, I'm good.
I've compared expensive speaker cable to Canare Star-Quad, Liberty cable, Ultra-Link and Blue Jeans Belden cable.
I could not tell any difference, none. I still use the Analysis Plus cables since I got them used for song.
With the exception of those cables, I built all of the cables in my theater\music room.
By the end I was getting pretty burned out on it but I got top quality custom cables and connectors for a fraction of what even Blue Jeans charges.
Soldering XLR interconnects is time consuming and tedious.

I tend to leave my equipment on all of the time for 2 reasons:
It sounds better warmed up and I think that to a much lesser extent that leaving certain electronics on is "easier" on them then powering on & off.
Before anyone wants to call me to task please feel free, I'm not going to argue, defend or debate.
No one is going to be convinced one way or the other and on this point I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a fool or otherwise.

BTW, Lonnie from Emotiva posted that they're planning on shipping the fixed XPA-1L amps this week. biggrin.gif:D:D
Edited by Milt99 - 4/3/13 at 11:49am
post #15844 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yeah - if it sounds harsh prior to warm-up then it is clearly some form of distortion in the upper FR. I guess I could measure the FR hot and cold and see if it measures any different. If it doesn't I am probably going nuts. smile.gif
My advice would be, why bother?
You hear what you hear and you're able to repeat it, so why not just accept and enjoy it!

I too have definite opinions on things like cables that I proved to myself through extensive reading(not of marketing copy) and experimentation.
For speaker cables as long as the gauge is heavy enough, the copper is high quality and the terminations are solid, I'm good.
I've compared expensive speaker cable to Canare Star-Quad, Liberty cable, Ultra-Link and Blue Jeans Belden cable.
I could not tell any difference, none. I still use the Analysis Plus cables since I got them used for song.
With the exception of those cables, I built all of the cables in my theater\music room.
By the end I was getting pretty burned out on it but I got top quality custom cables and connectors for a fraction of what even Blue Jeans charges.
Soldering XLR interconnects is time consuming and tedious.

I tend to leave my equipment on all of the time for 2 reasons:
It sounds better warmed up and I think that to a much lesser extent that leaving certain electronics on is "easier" on them then powering on & off.
Before anyone wants to call me task please feel free, I'm not going to argue, defend or debate.
No one is going to be convinced one way or the other and on this point I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a fool or otherwise.

BTW, Lonnie from Emotiva posted that they're planning on shipping the fixed XPA-1L amps this week. biggrin.gif:D:D

 

Can't disagree with any of that really.

post #15845 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Can't disagree with any of that really.

Unless someone else makes a subjective claim.
post #15846 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I can see that for tube amps but for SS designs?
What am I missing here?confused.gif

Yamaha engineers thought it necessary to let the amps stabilize for 10 minutes prior to adjusting bias. For their exact techincal reasoning you'll have to ask them directly.

EDIT: My mistake...dug out the service manuals, says wait 2 minutes after power on to stabilize amplifier operation. Maybe it was that it took me 10 minutes to do it. smile.gif

Attached in the procedure, that also illustrates the big increase in bias when the Auto Class A mode is engaged (~35W Class A in this mode).


Edited by whoaru99 - 4/3/13 at 5:41am
post #15847 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Can't disagree with any of that really.

Unless someone else makes a subjective claim.

 

I'm not making a subjective claim of the sort where opinion is presented as fact. I have been careful to point out that I do not really believe that SS equipment needs to 'warm up' before it sounds right. This is quite different from what I understand as subjectivism where someone says words to the effect "SS equipment sounds better after it has warmed up and nobody can show me otherwise with their measurements and science". That is a very different sort of thing to what I am saying. For all I know, my Class A amp might measure better after it has warmed up, even though I believe it is unlikely. I would love to know the truth about this and I may yet measure the amp myself.

 

The problem with subjective claims is when people present them as fact and others then go out and waste their money believing that one SS amp that is working properly and within its design limits sounds better or worse than any other subject to the same caveat. Same with DACs and cables. 

 

Some people have even been known to deny proven objective reports about the failings of well-known equipment, even when those failings have been acknowledged by the seller of that equipment! Imagine!  wink.gif

post #15848 of 17187
If I were you, and valued that Class A amp, running hot as they usually do for 20 years straight, I'd probably pull from service, pop the top and bottom covers, and inspect for any leaking or bulging capacitors. Under the stressful duty of Class A they're probably pretty near the end of useful life. When they fail it's usually not good for other parts of the amp as well, and some of those other parts can be made of unobtanium depending on the unit.
post #15849 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

If I were you, and valued that Class A amp, running hot as they usually do for 20 years straight, I'd probably pull from service, pop the top and bottom covers, and inspect for any leaking or bulging capacitors. Under the stressful duty of Class A they're probably pretty near the end of useful life. When they fail it's usually not good for other parts of the amp as well, and some of those other parts can be made of unobtanium depending on the unit.

Yes, probably a good idea. I expect that one day it will cease to function. If/when that day comes I don't whether to consider it a blessing or a nuisance. WRT to blessing, it gives me some inspiration to review and revise my stereo system. I don't think I have much interest in m/ch music (I have over 1000 stereo CDs) so a new 2-ch system in that room would be something to look forward to. WRT to the nuisance, well there is the cost of course and also the concern that I will not be able to get that sweet sound I have grown accustomed to. Could be interesting. Of course, if all I need is a few replacement caps, then it could be repaired and go for another 20 years :)

post #15850 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'm not making a subjective claim of the sort where opinion is presented as fact. I have been careful to point out that I do not really believe that SS equipment needs to 'warm up' before it sounds right. This is quite different from what I understand as subjectivism where someone says words to the effect "SS equipment sounds better after it has warmed up and nobody can show me otherwise with their measurements and science". That is a very different sort of thing to what I am saying. For all I know, my Class A amp might measure better after it has warmed up, even though I believe it is unlikely. I would love to know the truth about this and I may yet measure the amp myself.

The problem with subjective claims is when people present them as fact and others then go out and waste their money believing that one SS amp that is working properly and within its design limits sounds better or worse than any other subject to the same caveat. Same with DACs and cables. 

Some people have even been known to deny proven objective reports about the failings of well-known equipment, even when those failings have been acknowledged by the seller of that equipment! Imagine!  wink.gif

So true. Onkyo has had problems for years, yet there are those who refuse to think it is an epidemic. biggrin.gif They also continually criticize another brand that will still perform while their supported brand becomes a paper weight/boat anchor.
post #15851 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

So true. Onkyo has had problems for years, yet there are those who refuse to think it is an epidemic. biggrin.gif They also continually criticize another brand that will still perform while their supported brand becomes a paper weight/boat anchor.

Do you have any numbers that show the amount of Onkyo failures per units sold? If not then how do you know it is an "epidemic"? So all those with Onkyos that had issues were not repaired but disposed of? Do you have numbers that back up that claim as well? Its fine to make these statements but they are totally useless if you have no proof to back them up wink.gif.

Bill
post #15852 of 17187
Exactly, I was wondering how to bi-amp the towers.
post #15853 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

I think what marshhog was asking is how to bi amp the towers. Unless I read wrong.


Exactly, I was wondering how to bi-amp the towers utilizing the remaining two channels.
post #15854 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Do you have any numbers that show the amount of Onkyo failures per units sold? If not then how do you know it is an "epidemic"? So all those with Onkyos that had issues were not repaired but disposed of? Do you have numbers that back up that claim as well? Its fine to make these statements but they are totally useless if you have no proof to back them up wink.gif.

Bill

I have as much proof as you do with all your claims.
Why haven't I seen your supporting data?
post #15855 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshhog View Post

UPA Configuration

I am interested in the UPA 500, but I only want to utilize it in a three channel configuration. I essence, what I'm trying to achieve is to dedicate two channels to each tower and let the remaining channel take care of the center channel. I called Emotiva and was told that it is definitely possibly and he commenced to explain the process. However, I really didn't understand how I would go about achieving this. If I recall, he said that as long as my receiver had component outputs I could get it done. My receiver is a Yamaha RX A1010. Does anyone know how to get this done?

The easiest way would be to use two "Y" cables on the front left and right pre outs to split each one of those into two input of the amp. Assuming, of course, the speakers have the necessary two pair of inputs to accept the two amp channels.

If it's power you seek though, this isn't the answer. Putting two channels of 80W each to your speakers in this manner does not equal 160 watts going to the speaker, effectively it's still only 80 watts going to the speaker.
post #15856 of 17187
Passively bi-amping speakers this way is really a waste of an amplifier channel.
Much better just to upgrade the 3chs to a beefier model.
If you were using active crossovers, then bi-amping this way may make sense. (it is common among DIY speaker builders) but for commercial designs, especially highly regarded ones, why bypass the built in crossover this way?
Do you think you can do a better job than the original speaker designer?
It isn't easy to design good passive crossovers and to replace them with active ones to get BETTER sound isn't that easy either unless you have extensive measuring tools and skill.
post #15857 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I have as much proof as you do with all your claims.
Why haven't I seen your supporting data?

What claims have I made? Why not post those claims that you are saying I made. You're the one that made reliability claims about Onkyo products without a shred of evidence as to the actual failure rates per unit. So instead of backing up your statements with facts you post more BS wink.gif.

Bill
post #15858 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

What claims have I made? Why not post those claims that you are saying I made. You're the one that made reliability claims about Onkyo products without a shred of evidence as to the actual failure rates per unit. So instead of backing up your statements with facts you post more BS wink.gif.

Bill

Dig out of your own BS and read for yourself about the negative remarks you have made about Emotiva.
Next read about all the problems with Onkyo. You always repeat that you have not had a problem with Onkyo. I had no problem with the UMC-1. Does that mean that these are trouble free units?
Your stats about Emotiva are as factual as mine are about Onkyo. The Onkyo 818 was to be the latest and greatest. Have you neglected to read all the negative posts?
This started again with Keith's claims about subjective sound of an amp (although he only claimed subjectivity after being asked for measurements). Why did you not challenge him for measurements.
post #15859 of 17187
^^^

could you guys take this to PM please?
post #15860 of 17187
Well, I got a shipping notice for my Emotiva XPA-1Ls today.biggrin.gif
This will be interesting.
post #15861 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Well, I got a shipping notice for my Emotiva XPA-1Ls today.biggrin.gif
This will be interesting.

I know that you are anxious to listen to your Cowsills collection with the new amps.
post #15862 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

The easiest way would be to use two "Y" cables on the front left and right pre outs to split each one of those into two input of the amp. Assuming, of course, the speakers have the necessary two pair of inputs to accept the two amp channels.

If it's power you seek though, this isn't the answer. Putting two channels of 80W each to your speakers in this manner does not equal 160 watts going to the speaker, effectively it's still only 80 watts going to the speaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Passively bi-amping speakers this way is really a waste of an amplifier channel.
Much better just to upgrade the 3chs to a beefier model.
If you were using active crossovers, then bi-amping this way may make sense. (it is common among DIY speaker builders) but for commercial designs, especially highly regarded ones, why bypass the built in crossover this way?
Do you think you can do a better job than the original speaker designer?
It isn't easy to design good passive crossovers and to replace them with active ones to get BETTER sound isn't that easy either unless you have extensive measuring tools and skill.

Passive bi-amping makes sense only if you can use two amps that operate independatly, when on clips the other is not affected.
The impedance of the upper end is not the same as the lower end, it is usually much easier to drive to less current is required.
Electrostatics are not this way though.

I was cranking system powered by an ATI 3005 (300 WPC) to -3.
The music that was mostly vocals and piano with an occasional drum beat with my Revels.
You be be surprised when the peak lights came on.

Scott from Outlaw had an explaination a while back that made sense to me.
If you are putting out a lot of power into the bass region and clip the amp it will be isolated and the high frequencies will be unaffected.

I am still not saying that this is the way to go, just that it is not useless and simply doubling the power is not the point.
The point is to not clip and if you do, do so in way that does not harm the sound quality.

- Rich
post #15863 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I know that you are anxious to listen to your Cowsills collection with the new amps.
8-Track Baby!
post #15864 of 17187

It looks like they fixed the problem, XPA-1L is on sale :)

 

Let us know how you like it, I wished there was a way to find out if it really does Class A

 

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l

post #15865 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

It looks like they fixed the problem, XPA-1L is on sale smile.gif

Let us know how you like it, I wished there was a way to find out if it really does Class A

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l
I got a Kill-A-Watt meter and plugged one of the amps in.
At idle it draws close to 3 amps and ~190 watts pretty classic Class A behavior.
Switching to Class A/B it draws about 1 amp and 50watts.
post #15866 of 17187
You guys hear the news that Big Dan bought Bob Carver's company?
Tubes coming to Emotiva's lineup.
post #15867 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post


Passive bi-amping makes sense only if you can use two amps that operate independatly, when on clips the other is not affected.
The impedance of the upper end is not the same as the lower end, it is usually much easier to drive to less current is required.
Electrostatics are not this way though.

I was cranking system powered by an ATI 3005 (300 WPC) to -3.
The music that was mostly vocals and piano with an occasional drum beat with my Revels.
You be be surprised when the peak lights came on.

Scott from Outlaw had an explaination a while back that made sense to me.
If you are putting out a lot of power into the bass region and clip the amp it will be isolated and the high frequencies will be unaffected.

I am still not saying that this is the way to go, just that it is not useless and simply doubling the power is not the point.
The point is to not clip and if you do, do so in way that does not harm the sound quality.

- Rich

This does nothing to change your clipping points.

Been there, done that, doesn't work that way. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts on AVS why it doesn't.
post #15868 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

You guys hear the news that Big Dan bought Bob Carver's company?
Tubes coming to Emotiva's lineup.



Wow I'm shocked, and it leaves me wondering what Mr Carver will be up to next.
post #15869 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Wow I'm shocked, and it leaves me wondering what Mr Carver will be up to next.

Part of the deal is that he stays on board as a designer.
post #15870 of 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Part of the deal is that he stays on board as a designer.



Ok I gotcha. That really speaks volumes to me. His name is now linked with Emotiva, which can only be positive for them. He's like the amplifier godfather.
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