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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 530

post #15871 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

This does nothing to change your clipping points.

Been there, done that, doesn't work that way. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts on AVS why it doesn't.

Post counts are meaningless.

Equivalent power draw for high and low frequency drivers (Elecrostatic's excluded) is nonesense
If two two mono-blocks are used to bi-amp, there is not way these two amps will clip at the same time.

You may not think it is worth it and that is reasonable.

- Rich
post #15872 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Part of the deal is that he stays on board as a designer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Ok I gotcha. That really speaks volumes to me. His name is now linked with Emotiva, which can only be positive for them. He's like the amplifier godfather.

That is very interesting.
I would like to see class-G and H get advanced.
I have owned Sunfire Cinema, Cinema Grand, and 7400 amps.

Recently, I have installed an Outlaw 7500 (200 WPC) and ATI 3005 (300 WPC) and I feel they sound more dynamic and better defined at high volume levels.

It would be nice to have newer designs including the XPR series reviewed by sites that perform extensive measurements.

- Rich
post #15873 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

That is very interesting.
I would like to see class-G and H get advanced.I have owned Sunfire Cinema, Cinema Grand, and 7400 amps.Recently, I have installed an Outlaw 7500 (200 WPC) and ATI 3005 (300 WPC) and I feel they sound more dynamic and better defined at high volume levels. It would be nice to have newer designs including the XPR series reviewed by sites that perform extensive measurements.- Rich

Agreed measurements please also for their class A amp!
post #15874 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post


That is very interesting.
I would like to see class-G and H get advanced.
I have owned Sunfire Cinema, Cinema Grand, and 7400 amps.

Recently, I have installed an Outlaw 7500 (200 WPC) and ATI 3005 (300 WPC) and I feel they sound more dynamic and better defined at high volume levels.

It would be nice to have newer designs including the XPR series reviewed by sites that perform extensive measurements.

- Rich



I'm wondering if his fingerprints aren't already on the XPR line Rich. Maybe more will come out about this, but just the fact that he's linked with Emotiva now is very interesting. Like you I've owned a couple Sunfire products one of which I'm using now.
post #15875 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm wondering if his fingerprints aren't already on the XPR line Rich. Maybe more will come out about this, but just the fact that he's linked with Emotiva now is very interesting. Like you I've owned a couple Sunfire products one of which I'm using now.

It has been in past products.
example; The DMC-1 was a Sunfire clone.

Dan and Bob have worked on many OEM products together in the past.
This isn't a new relationship.
post #15876 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Post counts are meaningless.

Equivalent power draw for high and low frequency drivers (Elecrostatic's excluded) is nonesense
If two two mono-blocks are used to bi-amp, there is not way these two amps will clip at the same time.

You may not think it is worth it and that is reasonable.

- Rich

Not only do I think it, it's true. And, it has nothing to do with post counts, per se, it has to do with actually doing it and measuring it.

As I suggested some time ago you need to rethink this. Thinking only in terms of power just serve for continued misunderstanding.

It's well-documented in many posts/threads here on AVS.
post #15877 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

It has been in past products.
example; The DMC-1 was a Sunfire clone.

Dan and Bob have worked on many OEM products together in the past.
This isn't a new relationship.



I didn't realize this. That's a good thing
post #15878 of 17194
Well, my replacement XPA-1Ls have shipped.
All I need to do is wait til next Wednesday.
First\only report on Emotiva forum is that the amp isn't prematurely switching to Class A/B
post #15879 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Well, my replacement XPA-1Ls have shipped.
All I need to do is wait til next Wednesday.
First\only report on Emotiva forum is that the amp isn't prematurely switching to Class A/B

Cool how do you know if it switches to A/B?
post #15880 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Not only do I think it, it's true. And, it has nothing to do with post counts, per se, it has to do with actually doing it and measuring it.

As I suggested some time ago you need to rethink this. Thinking only in terms of power just serve for continued misunderstanding.

It's well-documented in many posts/threads here on AVS.

There are posts and there are posts.
There is a big difference between using the word facts and actually suppling them.

Current is not voltage. If you amplify the voltage to a source with high impedance there is less resistance and therefore less current.
That means much less chance of clipping.

Lower impedance loads are harder to drive so more current is required.
Use two amps and one amp can run out of current while the other (the highs) are fine.

If you are using an AVR that runs out of current, there is little or no clipping protection.
Therefore bi-amping makes does not help.

It is not about volume, it is about clipping.

If you would like to refute the clipping argument, fine.
Go find the posts and read them first.

- Rich
post #15881 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Cool how do you know if it switches to A/B?

Initially, XPA-1L uses heard a click then measured the power usage.
It had dropped indicating that it had gone into A/B mode.

I do think that anyone suddenly heard the difference.
If it had not made a clicking sound, I am not sure it would have been discovered wink.gif

- Rich
post #15882 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm wondering if his fingerprints aren't already on the XPR line Rich. Maybe more will come out about this, but just the fact that he's linked with Emotiva now is very interesting. Like you I've owned a couple Sunfire products one of which I'm using now.

When I sold one of my Sunfires it arrived with a channel out.
I contacted Rita's Repair Service and they repaired ti and even offered to have Bob sign.
I believe she is a friend of Bob's.

They were great to deal with and very reasonable.
It is nice to know that you can still get them serviced.

- Rich
post #15883 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Well, my replacement XPA-1Ls have shipped.
All I need to do is wait til next Wednesday.
First\only report on Emotiva forum is that the amp isn't prematurely switching to Class A/B

Did you hear a difference between A/B and A modes?

- Rich
post #15884 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you hear a difference between A/B and A modes?

- Rich

I hope so, otherwise what's the point frown.gif
post #15885 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you hear a difference between A/B and A modes?

- Rich

I hope so, otherwise what's the point frown.gif
post #15886 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you hear a difference between A/B and A modes?

- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I hope so, otherwise what's the point frown.gif

The point is to sell equipment.
There are many that feel that well designed amps sound the same, and they really should.
We know they measure differently but is that audible?
This is a huge can of worms.

However, even if it is audible, perhaps not on only the most revealing speakres and perhaps only the ones that are easier to drive.
It would be a whole lot of fun to try this amp and switch modes.

Either way, it is a nice mono-block amp that doubles down on power at a good price.

- Rich
post #15887 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post


The point is to sell equipment.
There are many that feel that well designed amps sound the same, and they really should.
We know they measure differently but is that audible?
This is a huge can of worms.

However, even if it is audible, perhaps not on only the most revealing speakres and perhaps only the ones that are easier to drive.
It would be a whole lot of fun to try this amp and switch modes.

Either way, it is a nice mono-block amp that doubles down on power at a good price.

- Rich

+1 especially with the last point.
Hard to find amps that do this for less than 2x the asking price of this one.
It is a great buy as is without the class A feature.
post #15888 of 17194
I"m sure it's a fine amp, but almost certainly uses sandbag ratings at the higher impedance to achieve the appearance of doubling down, as do many/most other amps that also profess this ability.

The test documents on their site seems to support that opinion, showing 363W @ 8 ohms and 553W @ 4 ohms. The published ratings can be manipulated from there to give the appearance of doubling down by sandbagging that 363W down to 250W, and a smaller adjustment of 553 down to 500. I also predict that these amps will seem more powerful than other "250W" amps; because they're not really 250W amps. wink.gif
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/6/13 at 10:34am
post #15889 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

When I sold one of my Sunfires it arrived with a channel out.
I contacted Rita's Repair Service and they repaired ti and even offered to have Bob sign.
I believe she is a friend of Bob's.

They were great to deal with and very reasonable.
It is nice to know that you can still get them serviced.

- Rich



I believe I saw someone in eBay offering a Sunfire repair service, unless that was the same place you used. But good to know Rich smile.gif
post #15890 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you hear a difference between A/B and A modes?

- Rich
It goes back to the system warm up thing.
My system doesn't sound it's best, with or without these amps, until it's been on for 30 minutes or so.
The amp switches out of Class A mode after 5-7 minutes.
I have listened to it for extended periods and the system sounded excellent.

I'm not psychic like some other posters on this thread about amp measurements but I read the bench tests for Emo amps on Secrets and the published ratings and measurements were conservative.

One guy got one of the 1Ls and while the Class A issue is fixed, the amp outputs a "buzzing" noise for 5-40 seconds when powered on. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif
post #15891 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

It goes back to the system warmup, One guy got one of the 1Ls and while the Class A issue is fixed, the amp outputs a "buzzing" noise for 5-40 seconds when powered on. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

BUZZING I think that's what they fixed
post #15892 of 17194
I would suggest waiting to buy the XPA-1L till all the bugs are worked out. That is unless the buzzing issue mentioned by Milt is just an isolated issue.

Bill
post #15893 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post


I'm not psychic like some other posters on this thread about amp measurements but I read the bench tests for Emo amps on Secrets and the published ratings and measurements were conservative.

One guy got one of the 1Ls and while the Class A issue is fixed, the amp outputs a "buzzing" noise for 5-40 seconds when powered on. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

Psychic? LOL.

All you have to do is read what's published on their website.

Again, my point isn't to disparage the amp, per se, only the oft-illusion of amplifiers "doubling down" because of playing with the numbers.
post #15894 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View PostI would suggest waiting to buy the XPA-1L till all the bugs are worked out. That is unless the buzzing issue mentioned by Milt is just an isolated issue. Bill

I will wait for when they have their big sale :)

post #15895 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Psychic? LOL.

All you have to do is read what's published on their website.

Again, my point isn't to disparage the amp, per se, only the oft-illusion of amplifiers "doubling down" because of playing with the numbers.
That is true but read independent reviews that do bench tests and as much as most any company Emotiva doesn't fudge in that regard.
post #15896 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

BUZZING I think that's what they fixed
Nope, the original issue was switching to Class A/B operation prematurely.
Some early buyers myself included, had amps with capacitor noise issues on power up.
Emotiva has now responded with a fix for that as well.
I'd wait for a month and then order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I would suggest waiting to buy the XPA-1L till all the bugs are worked out. That is unless the buzzing issue mentioned by Milt is just an isolated issue.

Bill
Agreed. If you're not an early adopter, check out the Emotiva forum for feedback.
I'm a noob there but results come back pretty damn quick if you can wade through all of the off topic blather that seems to permeate the threads there.
The number and variations of "Which amp should I buy" posts is mind boggling.
"If my hair is burnt auburn and I have open baffle electrostatics with a quad reel-to-reel and harvest gold appliances which amp should I buy".
Sheesh.
post #15897 of 17194
I've read lots of test reports over the years. Typically the only ones much different between rated power and test power are the ones trying to sell the "doubling down" concept.

Again, I'm in no way insinuating it's a bad amp, just that there may be some playing to the audience with the "doubling down" specsmanship. Most amps don't make that claim, but it is pretty common among those presenting the image of high end.

Heck, all my amps double down if I deflate the 8 ohm ratings to make it work out that way. smile.gif
post #15898 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Nope, the original issue was switching to Class A/B operation prematurely.
Some early buyers myself included, had amps with capacitor noise issues on power up.
Emotiva has now responded with a fix for that as well.
I'd wait for a month and then order.
Agreed. If you're not an early adopter, check out the Emotiva forum for feedback.
I'm a noob there but results come back pretty damn quick if you can wade through all of the off topic blather that seems to permeate the threads there.
The number and variations of "Which amp should I buy" posts is mind boggling.
"If my hair is burnt auburn and I have open baffle electrostatics with a quad reel-to-reel and harvest gold appliances which amp should I buy".
Sheesh.

Very funny and so true. smile.gif
post #15899 of 17194
One last thing about "doubling down".
Is it really that important? Or more for specmanship.
As I understand it, to truly double-down an amp really has to be overbuilt in the extreme and that costs bucks.
Uber- transformer with lots and lots of capacitance, transistors and heat sinks.
I think that some of the Coda amps truly double-down and some other big buck amps.

The component specs on the XPA-1L are pretty dang good, imo.
460 VA transformer, 90,000 whatever farads of capacitance and 16 transistors.

There are other class A amps that have less in the component spec dept. that have more powerful ratings and some that have better\more components with a lower power rating.
The finished product is what matters, right?
post #15900 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

One last thing about "doubling down".
Is it really that important? Or more for specmanship.
As I understand it, to truly double-down an amp really has to be overbuilt in the extreme and that costs bucks.
Uber- transformer with lots and lots of capacitance, transistors and heat sinks.
I think that some of the Coda amps truly double-down and some other big buck amps.

The component specs on the XPA-1L are pretty dang good, imo.
460 VA transformer, 90,000 whatever farads of capacitance and 16 transistors.

There are other class A amps that have less in the component spec dept. that have more powerful ratings and some that have better\more components with a lower power rating.
The finished product is what matters, right?

Amps that double down on power have ample current/stable power supplies.
For me, it is a sign of a good design.
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