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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 532

post #15931 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

For the record I currently own Emotiva product, albeit not an amplifier; for I have plenty of amplifiers already, 15 or 16, I believe.

They publish the spec 250W @ 8 ohms, 500W @ 4 ohms. People are talking about it "doubling down". People wouldn't be talking about it doubling down if the numbers didn't elude to it.

Damn people and their math skills.

Those evil bast*rds might at Emotiva may go so far as to provide measurements to prove it. Is there no end to their villainy tongue.gif

- Rich
post #15932 of 17194
They do provide measurements. Measurements that seem to indicate the amp is considerably sandbagged at 8 ohms, re. 250wpc. That information is right in the links in the "Test Report" section. smile.gif
post #15933 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

They do provide measurements. Measurements that seem to indicate the amp is considerably sandbagged at 8 ohms, re. 250wpc. That information is right in the links in the "Test Report" section. smile.gif

I find nothing nefarious in conservatively rating their product.
That measurement is not 20hz to 20Hhz.

- Rich
post #15934 of 17194

Who is reviewing it XPL1 and putting through the meat grinder to see if it performs well!

post #15935 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I find nothing nefarious in conservatively rating their product.
That measurement is not 20hz to 20Hhz.

- Rich


The disparity of the 8 ohm published 250W rating vs. the test results 363W as compared to the 4 ohm published 500W rating vs test rating of 552W, is the point. The latter is more along the lines I'd expect but the 8 ohm 250W vs. 363W? That's quite a difference, nearly 50%. Clearly the 250/500W pairing is picked to play to a certain target audience.

Nefarious? Well...not sure I'd call it that either, but I do consider it deceptive when they're playing with the numbers to exploit audiophile lore.
post #15936 of 17194
Well in my time hanging at the Emotiva forum, I don't ever recall a post complaining about the power ratings or about this "doubling down" stuff as being important. The people posting are owners and prospective purchasers so if they don't raise this topic, I just can't see that it is important in any fashion. Maybe to the 0.01% of the interested people but that would be a foolish and virtualyy zero profit advantage to post specifications to try and show "doubling down" of power. Sorry but you are the first person I have read a post from that thinks that Emotiva is cooking the books.
post #15937 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

You're missing the whole point or intentionally trying to side step it.

All amps "double down", or should I say "half up", when you play with the numbers. It is not a group of "amps that can do this" (because all amps can with massaged numbers) it is a group of mfg. playing with numbers to play into an image and the hopes/fears of their target audience.

I'm missing the point.

I honestly don't care if I buy a 200W amp and in reality it can do 250 so that at 1/2 the ohm rating it can make 400.
As long as the other specs fall in line what is really the difference?
So say it can do 250? If the distortions are much higher, is that good or bad?
If at 400W the distortion is the same as the 200W rating am I'm getting duped because it could do 250 before?confused.gif
post #15938 of 17194
No offense to anyone but how many times can you guys go back and forth about actual amp power ratings and doubling down? I mean it is not like either side of the discussion is going to change their opinion no matter how much the subject is discussed wink.gif.

Bil
post #15939 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

. Sorry but you are the first person I have read a post from that thinks that Emotiva is cooking the books.

The proof is in the pudding (or, well, in this case their spec sheet).

But, to your point, why should I really care if people buying the product don't care? Well, because I mistakenly thought some might be interested in the play/myth on doubling down.

Bear in mind I'm not the one trying to sell you something.
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/9/13 at 10:53am
post #15940 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I'm missing the point.

Yes.

Clearly we have a difference of opinion about what is or isn't deceptive.
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/9/13 at 10:56am
post #15941 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

No offense to anyone but how many times can you guys go back and forth about actual amp power ratings and doubling down? I mean it is not like either side of the discussion is going to change their opinion no matter how much the subject is discussed wink.gif.

Bil

You're right Bill. There are just some things that don't die the graceful death they should regarding audiophile mystique..."high current", "toroidal transformers", "doubing down", "damping factor", "biamping", etc. wink.gif
post #15942 of 17194
Back on topic. Please try to make your point and move on.

Thx
post #15943 of 17194

So who has received the new Emotiva XPL1 Class A and think it is an improvement in sound

post #15944 of 17194
I think we will be waiting about 3 more weeks to get any real feedback on the new amps as Emotiva basically did a complete recall at their expense. They are aware of the noise issue that they diagnosed down to some kind of grounding or ground loop problem. Rumors that a possible component change may be necessary but not positive. Guess we will have to be patient! Hard for me.
post #15945 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

I think we will be waiting about 3 more weeks to get any real feedback on the new amps as Emotiva basically did a complete recall at their expense. They are aware of the noise issue that they diagnosed down to some kind of grounding or ground loop problem. Rumors that a possible component change may be necessary but not positive. Guess we will have to be patient! Hard for me.

An other noise! Bad karma
post #15946 of 17194
I'm also curious about the XPL1. I would like to know if there is a noticable difference between the XPL1 and the XPA2 or XPA3 (I have both of them).
post #15947 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

I'm also curious about the XPL1. I would like to know if there is a noticable difference between the XPL1 and the XPA2 or XPA3 (I have both of them).

I think that is the big question if Class A is a clearly noticable difference over Class AB with the XPA-1L. Or is it a subtle difference that is not easily heard.

Bill
post #15948 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I think that is the big question if Class A is a clearly noticable difference over Class AB with the XPA-1L. Or is it a subtle difference that is not easily heard.

Bill

Yes, I would be very interested in this. I may also not have speakers that are good enough to hear this difference in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I love me speakers, but do not have unlimited funds to spend on extremely high end ones (or other extremely high end equipment for that matter). Emotiva is 'within my budget'.
post #15949 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Yes, I would be very interested in this. I may also not have speakers that are good enough to hear this difference in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I love me speakers, but do not have unlimited funds to spend on extremely high end ones (or other extremely high end equipment for that matter). Emotiva is 'within my budget'.

Sometimes you do not have to spend a fortune to get great speakers. If you feel your speakers are lacking I would upgrade them first before buying amps such as the XPA-1L. In my experience amp changes have yielded minimal to no improvement in SQ. But I've experienced some very nice SQ improvements with speaker upgrades.

Bill
post #15950 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Sometimes you do not have to spend a fortune to get great speakers. If you feel your speakers are lacking I would upgrade them first before buying amps such as the XPA-1L. In my experience amp changes have yielded minimal to no improvement in SQ. But I've experienced some very nice SQ improvements with speaker upgrades.

Bill

I totally agree, no argument there. My speakers for the moment are within my budget constraints. Maybe in the future, but as for now, I can live happily with what I'm using. As always, Speaker and Room (treatments if possible) first, then the electronics IMO.
post #15951 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I think that is the big question if Class A is a clearly noticable difference over Class AB with the XPA-1L. Or is it a subtle difference that is not easily heard.

Bill

Assuming the discussion is strictly Class A vs. Class AB, FWIW, I cannot hear the difference between Class A and Class AB mode on my Yamaha amps that have the Class A/AB feature. My brother claims he can, subtly, but I've not pushed a challenge on that.
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/9/13 at 6:59pm
post #15952 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

I totally agree, no argument there. My speakers for the moment are within my budget constraints. Maybe in the future, but as for now, I can live happily with what I'm using. As always, Speaker and Room (treatments if possible) first, then the electronics IMO.

Yes, room first, then speakers, then amps, then source, then per amp then cables, not to forget quality recording and ears cleaning to, all this with a nice glass of red wine and lights dimmed then all is well smile.gif
post #15953 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Sometimes you do not have to spend a fortune to get great speakers. If you feel your speakers are lacking I would upgrade them first before buying amps such as the XPA-1L. In my experience amp changes have yielded minimal to no improvement in SQ. But I've experienced some very nice SQ improvements with speaker upgrades.

Bill
It all depends on what amp(s) you start with and what amp(s) you move to.
I could definitely tell the difference in my system when I switched from my Hugh Dean designed amp, think Aksa, 100 wpc amp to the XPA-1Ls in A/B mode.
Nothing deficient with the current amp except it's designed for different speakers, listening preference(music) and smaller rooms.

The Emotive had much better bass response\presence. The leading edge of transients were what really impressed me.
I can also turn the system up to fun levels, rock out and everything is clean.

I'm sure the XPA-1s or similarly powerful amps would be much the same but I don't want ginormous amps in my living room.
In a power amp I basically I look for a powerful power supply, lots of capacitance and lots of transistors.
While that alone guarantees nothing, without it it ain't gonna happen.
An SS amp designed to operate in true Class A mode must have certain capacities and abilities, imo.
The quality of the components absolutely matters and amp designers, regardless of the mode of operation achieve their ends in different ways.

I'm not so patiently awaiting a properly functioning XPA-1L so I can decide for myself, with my system and the music I listen to what the end result is.
What I'm really waiting for is how the mids and upper-end are conveyed.
post #15954 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

It all depends on what amp(s) you start with and what amp(s) you move to. I could definitely tell the difference in my system when I switched from my Hugh Dean designed amp, think Aksa, 100 wpc amp to the XPA-1Ls in A/B mode. Nothing deficient with the current amp except it's designed for different speakers, listening preference(music) and smaller rooms.

Milt,

This could be true but I did not find it to be true in my system. I have owned a number of different amps with some that were in my system longer than others.

Emotiva LPA-1
Boston Acoustics A7200
Sherbourn 7/2100A
Parasound A53
Bel Canto S300
NHT Power5
Outlaw M2200s
Boston Acoustics A7200

I guess my audio memory is not that good as I found the time it took me to change out amps I could not really determine the differences between amps. At first I thought I was hearing differences but with so many variables (volume levels or gain differences) I gave up the "ultimate amp" quest smile.gif. The other factor is that I believe when doing amp changes (upgrades) we "want" to hear differences to justify the changes. I know I've been there with this "effect" more than once wink.gif. I ended up buying a second BA A7200 as I always felt it was an excellent amp. I've had the A7200 in my system for a few years now and I have no interest in any other amps at this time. I paid $550 used for the amp and I doubt I'll find a better built amp with more than enough power for my system.

Bill
post #15955 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes, room first, then speakers, then amps, then source, then per amp then cables, not to forget quality recording and ears cleaning to, all this with a nice glass of red wine and lights dimmed then all is well smile.gif

I like that biggrin.gif. You brought up one main thing that MANY forget - ears. I get mine checked on a yearly basis, but pretty sure a lot of folks don't. I know my auditory response of my ears - where I have strenghts and weaknesses (and as we all age - more on the weakness side...).
post #15956 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes, room first, then speakers, then amps, then source, then per amp then cables, not to forget quality recording and ears cleaning to, all this with a nice glass of red wine and lights dimmed then all is well smile.gif

Can't argue with that. cool.gif
post #15957 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes, room first, then speakers, then amps, then source, then per amp then cables, not to forget quality recording and ears cleaning to, all this with a nice glass of red wine and lights dimmed then all is well smile.gif

wse,

I missed this post. I agree with your thoughts especially the quality of the recording of the music one listens to. Personally I just no longer put much value in amp differences. As long as they are well built and output enough power to drive my speakers under all listening conditions I'm good to go smile.gif.

Bill
post #15958 of 17194

Yes, our ears are losing resolution as we age :(

post #15959 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes, our ears are losing resolution as we age frown.gif

...and this is inversely proportional to the quality of wine we drink.
post #15960 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The other factor is that I believe when doing amp changes (upgrades) we "want" to hear differences to justify the changes. I know I've been there with this "effect" more than once wink.gif. I ended up buying a second BA A7200 as I always felt it was an excellent amp. I've had the A7200 in my system for a few years now and I have no interest in any other amps at this time. I paid $550 used for the amp and I doubt I'll find a better built amp with more than enough power for my system.

Bill
I don't think the hope of finding an improvement in one's system is limited to amplifiers. smile.gif
For myself, I'm looking to find an improvement because I'm pretty positive that what I currently have could and should sound better.
To that end I'm not committed to any single solution but I am committed to finding an amp that will sound better whatever the brand or topology.
I'm a proof is in the pudding kind of guy.
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