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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 554

post #16591 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am considering replacing my Denon AVR-3310 with the Emotiva UMC-200, but I have some questions regarding the manual EQ'ing options inside the UMC-200.

Can the LCR's be adjusted to eliminate the peaks & dips in the frequency response with the UMC-200's manual EQ? Does it offer enough EQ'ing options to set a house curve in the frequency response? Also, does the UMC-200's manual EQ offer any adjustability over the subwoofers frequency and time domain settings?

Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go.

PEQs can be used to model a house curve but the usefulness of such an approach is debatable.

PEQs not only work in the frequency domain but also in the time domain. When used correctly they will fix time domain errors at low frequencies.
The UMC-200 has only 3 bands of PEQ for the sub which might not be enough for every room.
post #16592 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go.

PEQs can be used to model a house curve but the usefulness of such an approach is debatable.

PEQs not only work in the frequency domain but also in the time domain. When used correctly they will fix time domain errors at low frequencies.
The UMC-200 has only 3 bands of PEQ for the sub which might not be enough for every room.

"Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go".

Well you can always pick up a radio shack meter for $40 to test levels.

But in the end you want to make final adjustments by ear too your liking, no need to be married to a curve.

Trying to match a curve is a good place to start but in the end it's about YOU being happy with the sound of your system.

If a particular curve does that, fine, if not, the a peq can be a great help.

There are many ways to approach this.
post #16593 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post

"Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go".

Well you can always pick up a radio shack meter for $40 to test levels.

A SPL meter is good for level calibration but I wouldn't use it for anything else. You need a calibrated mic for doing useful measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post

But in the end you want to make final adjustments by ear too your liking, no need to be married to a curve.

Trying to match a curve is a good place to start but in the end it's about YOU being happy with the sound of your system.

If a particular curve does that, fine, if not, the a peq can be a great help.

There are many ways to approach this.

There's preference and then there's reference. I doubt anybody can hear where an in-room frequency response is minimum phase or not and if an optimization attempt with PEQs should be made or not. If you want to approach sound reproduction by personal preference then be it but don't make the mistake to confuse ears and a brain with measuring instruments. Like Earl Geddes said: "Science is not a democracy".
post #16594 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go.

PEQs can be used to model a house curve but the usefulness of such an approach is debatable.

PEQs not only work in the frequency domain but also in the time domain. When used correctly they will fix time domain errors at low frequencies.
The UMC-200 has only 3 bands of PEQ for the sub which might not be enough for every room.

"Do you have measuring equipment? If not then manual EQ is a no-go".

Well you can always pick up a radio shack meter for $40 to test levels.

But in the end you want to make final adjustments by ear too your liking, no need to be married to a curve.

Trying to match a curve is a good place to start but in the end it's about YOU being happy with the sound of your system.

If a particular curve does that, fine, if not, the a peq can be a great help.

There are many ways to approach this.

 

The problem with using ears alone is that ears are great listening instruments but virtually useless measuring instruments. Without independent measuring gear, it is just not possible to isolate problems in the room and fix them. For example, your ears may tell you that something is not 'quite right' with the sound but those ears can never isolate the problem to, for example, a 10dB dip or peak in frequency response at, say, 900Hz. For that you absolutely need measuring software and a mic. The Emo unit may well have PEQ, but without some way of knowing which frequencies to EQ, and by how much, it is just a crap shoot in the dark.

 

Similarly, your ears may tell you that the bass from the system is 'boomy' or 'one note'. OK, we know it will be room modes that are causing this and that the way to deal with it is to treat the room and/or relocate the subs. But first we need to know which modes are causing the problem and by how much they are causing the problem and the frequencies that are most affected, and by how much, and so on. Only when we have identified the problem is it possible to create a solution.

 

I think ears are the final arbiter of the sound. It has to sound good to the listener or the whole point is lost. But to get it to sound good to the listener by using PEQ to shape the FR, one needs measuring equipment. Ears don't help at all in that regard unfortunately.

post #16595 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

A SPL meter is good for level calibration but I wouldn't use it for anything else. You need a calibrated mic for doing useful measurements. Agree.
There's preference and then there's reference. Start with reference then finish off with preference.

I doubt anybody can hear where an in-room frequency response is minimum phase or not and if an optimization attempt with PEQs should be made or not. In the end it's not about replicating a curve, it's about what you like.

If you want to approach sound reproduction by personal preference then be it but don't make the mistake to confuse ears and a brain with measuring instruments. Like Earl Geddes said: "Science is not a democracy".

I agree with you in essence. Just to clarify my position.

I'm not saying it's either/ or regarding reference vs personal preference . Start by getting yourself as close to reference as you can, then tweak by ear.

Reference is the path to personal preference.

No two people hear alike, so how could one curve work for everyone, and everyone's hearing changes over time.

Success for me isn't measured by solely creating a reference curve, it's about creating a sound experience I like. If the curve gets me there, great, if not all I am saying is don't be afraid to tweak.

No different than tweaking a sound system for a venue, measure, then tweak by ear.
post #16596 of 17194
Good morning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The problem with using ears alone
I never said that. is that ears are great listening instruments but virtually useless measuring instruments. Without independent measuring gear, it is just not possible to isolate problems in the room and fix them. For example, your ears may tell you that something is not 'quite right' with the sound but those ears can never isolate the problem to, for example, a 10dB dip or peak in frequency response at, say, 900Hz. For that you absolutely need measuring software and a mic. The Emo unit may well have PEQ, but without some way of knowing which frequencies to EQ, and by how much, it is just a crap shoot in the dark.

Similarly, your ears may tell you that the bass from the system is 'boomy' or 'one note'. OK, we know it will be room modes that are causing this and that the way to deal with it is to treat the room and/or relocate the subs. But first we need to know which modes are causing the problem and by how much they are causing the problem and the frequencies that are most affected, and by how much, and so on. Only when we have identified the problem is it possible to create a solution.

I think ears are the final arbiter of the sound that is all I am saying. It has to sound good to the listener or the whole point is lost. But to get it to sound good to the listener by using PEQ to shape the FR, one needs measuring equipment. Ears don't help at all in that regard unfortunately. again all I am saying is that peq can be a usefull tool in the end to get you to a sound that you like. I would never suggest using it exclusively.
post #16597 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post

Good morning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The problem with using ears alone
I never said that. is that ears are great listening instruments but virtually useless measuring instruments. Without independent measuring gear, it is just not possible to isolate problems in the room and fix them. For example, your ears may tell you that something is not 'quite right' with the sound but those ears can never isolate the problem to, for example, a 10dB dip or peak in frequency response at, say, 900Hz. For that you absolutely need measuring software and a mic. The Emo unit may well have PEQ, but without some way of knowing which frequencies to EQ, and by how much, it is just a crap shoot in the dark.

Similarly, your ears may tell you that the bass from the system is 'boomy' or 'one note'. OK, we know it will be room modes that are causing this and that the way to deal with it is to treat the room and/or relocate the subs. But first we need to know which modes are causing the problem and by how much they are causing the problem and the frequencies that are most affected, and by how much, and so on. Only when we have identified the problem is it possible to create a solution.

I think ears are the final arbiter of the sound that is all I am saying. It has to sound good to the listener or the whole point is lost. But to get it to sound good to the listener by using PEQ to shape the FR, one needs measuring equipment. Ears don't help at all in that regard unfortunately. again all I am saying is that peq can be a usefull tool in the end to get you to a sound that you like. I would never suggest using it exclusively.

 

Fair enough - then we are in general agreement :)

post #16598 of 17194
ain't love grand?
post #16599 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post

ain't love grand?

 

LOL. I'd need to see a photo first :D:eek:

post #16600 of 17194
Well I do have measurement equipment, so that is not a problem. I was just more curious as to how much the LCR's can be adjusted using the built in manual EQ in the UMC-200. I may very well keep my Denon AVR-3310 and pick up a MiniDsp and play with some various settings, though it would take the 8 by 8 version of the MiniDsp to do this, which would cost a pretty penny. I am also curious as to how much tweaking can be done with the subwoofers on the UMC-200?

I like trying out new things. So I will think very hard on possibly trying out the UMC-200!
post #16601 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Can the LCR's be adjusted to eliminate the peaks & dips in the frequency response with the UMC-200's manual EQ?
Yes. It has 11 bands per channel for the 5 main channels. For some silly reason they forgot to offer the same for the rear 2 channels.
Quote:
Does it offer enough EQ'ing options to set a house curve in the frequency response?
I was able to replicate the same curve I use with my SSP-800 into the UMC-200 (for 5 of 7 speakers anyway). But I'd say yes without reservation.
Quote:
Also, does the UMC-200's manual EQ offer any adjustability over the subwoofers frequency and time domain settings?
Three bands of PEQ.
post #16602 of 17194
Not sure if this is the right thread for this but didn't want to make a new post for a question. I'm looking to pick up a XPA-3 and am wondering about placing it in/on a AV rack stand. I've seen some pictures that people have put them into closed off sections in a entertainment center (looks like no room for a fan or any kind of cooling) and while others place them on the floor on their own stands.

The speakers I'm looking to use with it are 6-8 ohm. Haven't picked out a stand yet cause I'm not sure how much clearance I'll need. How much room should I leave around it? 2" enough or more than that? Sorry if this has been covered, really don't have the time to go through 500+ pages.
post #16603 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but didn't want to make a new post for a question. I'm looking to pick up a XPA-3 and am wondering about placing it in/on a AV rack stand. I've seen some pictures that people have put them into closed off sections in a entertainment center (looks like no room for a fan or any kind of cooling) and while others place them on the floor on their own stands.

The speakers I'm looking to use with it are 6-8 ohm. Haven't picked out a stand yet cause I'm not sure how much clearance I'll need. How much room should I leave around it? 2" enough or more than that? Sorry if this has been covered, really don't have the time to go through 500+ pages.


This is from the XPA-3 manual:

 

"Do not install the XPA-3 in locations without proper ventilation. The XPA-3 should not be operated on a bed, sofa, rug, or similar surface that may block vents. The unit should not be installed in an enclosed location such as a bookcase, cabinet, or closed equipment rack unless sufficient forced-air ventilation is provided."

 

The guys I know have a fan in the back in an enclosed cabinet. I place mine on an open rack. Heat kills electronics.

post #16604 of 17194
If I don't want to add some sort of fan, what would be a safe clearance? I'm looking at open styled AV racks, think VTI or Sanus are the ones that we both like. Or did you mean yours is just placed with nothing around it. I did read through the Emo manual but it didn't say much and I read on here along with some other forums that their manual is lacking compared to some other companies.
post #16605 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

If I don't want to add some sort of fan, what would be a safe clearance? I'm looking at open styled AV racks, think VTI or Sanus are the ones that we both like. Or did you mean yours is just placed with nothing around it. I did read through the Emo manual but it didn't say much and I read on here along with some other forums that their manual is lacking compared to some other companies.


My rack is in the "My Womanless Cave" in my sig. I've always used open racks. Top clearance is most important. I'd say at least 4" clearance. More if possible. No closed doors in a cabinet.

post #16606 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post


My rack is in the "My Womanless Cave" in my sig. I've always used open racks. Top clearance is most important. I'd say at least 4" clearance. More if possible. No closed doors in a cabinet.

I haven't found a closed door style cabinet that I like.

With the amp taking over the main powering of my speakers, will my receiver still need alot of room around it? or should I send that question to its own dedicated thread.
post #16607 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post


I haven't found a closed door style cabinet that I like.

With the amp taking over the main powering of my speakers, will my receiver still need alot of room around it? or should I send that question to its own dedicated thread.


Same thing applies to your receiver as the amp. Shouldn't run as warm though with the amp doing most of the work.

post #16608 of 17194
It's a Denon 3313ci, looks like you had one (4311) on a shelf at one point.
post #16609 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

It's a Denon 3313ci, looks like you had one (4311) on a shelf at one point.


I still have the 4311. Real happy with it. I don't have an itch to upgrade. That 3313 is a nice one.

post #16610 of 17194
Its all melarky. I have a x4000 it has 4+ inches clearance and it isnt driving any speakers and its still VERY warm to the touch

While my xpa1's and xpa5 have about 2" clearance and are only luke warm




The dc-1 dac in top of one of my xpa1's on the other hand is HOT to the touch no matter if in a cabinet or in the open
post #16611 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Its all melarky. I have a x4000 it has 4+ inches clearance and it isnt driving any speakers and its still VERY warm to the touch

While my xpa1's and xpa5 have about 2" clearance and are only luke warm




The dc-1 dac in top of one of my xpa1's on the other hand is HOT to the touch no matter if in a cabinet or in the open

 

You keep yours in your cubby hole and I'll keep mine open. We'll both be happy. Except one of us may be happier longer than the other.

Happy Turkey day fellas.

post #16612 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Its all melarky. I have a x4000 it has 4+ inches clearance and it isnt driving any speakers and its still VERY warm to the touch

While my xpa1's and xpa5 have about 2" clearance and are only luke warm




The dc-1 dac in top of one of my xpa1's on the other hand is HOT to the touch no matter if in a cabinet or in the open

Right now I have my Denon in a entertainment center that's open and has about 4" above it and it is very cool and it's running all 7 speakers. Especially compared to my last Onkyo, that one would get very warm. Went through 3 Onkyo's in about 2 years time.

I can't really tell from your pics, are the sides walled up or are they open? Where your amps are at.

We were thinking about something like this.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51s0lWZNJWL._SY300_.jpg

I see that they offer it with enough space to hold a XPA-3, 3313ci, blu ray, DirecTV Genie. That's all I'll have hooked up in this room. Just was wondering if everything would stay cool enough without buying fans.
post #16613 of 17194
Anyone have a nice looking AV rack/stand that they recommend? Reasonably priced of course.

* If the one above I posted is not a good choice.
post #16614 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

You keep yours in your cubby hole and I'll keep mine open. We'll both be happy. Except one of us may be happier longer than the other.
Happy Turkey day fellas.

My rack couldnt be more open. You cant tell from the pics but there is 2 in on each side and the back is completely open.

Ventilation is only an issue if you notice the amps running very very warm.

So thanks for the concern but i am quite sure we will both enjoy ours the same amount of time
post #16615 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

Anyone have a nice looking AV rack/stand that they recommend? Reasonably priced of course.

* If the one above I posted is not a good choice.

I built my own rack which offers plenty of ventilation. I run a pair of fans on top of my AVR which only drives the surrounds and still gets as warm as if it was driving the whole lot!

My XPA-3 has never gotten warm, my dual XPA-2's however, get warm whether in stereo or bridged mode.

Here's a pic of the rack I built for my gear/center speaker







post #16616 of 17194
^^^ show off tongue.gif


in all seriousness, have i told you geoff that you have a nice rack?!eek.gif
post #16617 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

^^^ show off tongue.gif


in all seriousness, have i told you geoff that you have a nice rack?!eek.gif

Hhhmmpphhh, all the guys tell me that........until I unleash 860w x 2 of raw power on them biggrin.gif
post #16618 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

^^^ show off tongue.gif


in all seriousness, have i told you geoff that you have a nice rack?!eek.gif

Hhhmmpphhh, all the guys tell me that........until I unleash 860w x 2 of raw power on them biggrin.gif

and I counter with the TOWER of POWER!

post #16619 of 17194
@Geoff4RFC, there isn't much room above your amps, they don't get warm at all? That stand I was looking at has 2" of room room. Are your speakers 8ohm?

Looks great BTW.
post #16620 of 17194
New question, better to have more than enough power (XPA-3) or buy 2 smaller amps for the L/C/R (XPA-2 & XPA-1). The L/R speakers are 150w and 87db and the center is 200w and 87db. I don't want to over power and ruin them. Price is fairly close, I think it's a $20 difference.
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