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EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 561

post #16801 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

A friend of mine has Oscium for his iPad, I would I use that to measure actual power?
If you want to measure the power output capability of the amp with a steady state sine wave (or a sine burst) then yes, but since the Oscium has a max input limit of +-40V, you'd need an external attenuator (2 resistors) if the amp is >100W.

As this has a dual input, it would be ideal for looking for error between the source and amp output signals, of which clipping is only one manifestation.


.
Edited by Roger Dressler - 1/5/14 at 4:40pm
post #16802 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

And how exactly do you do it?

You put an oscilloscope across the binding posts and look at the waveform. Clipped signals have flat tops.

Quote:
Does a clipping indicator on a "pro audio amp" reliably show clipping?

Yes.
post #16803 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

You put an oscilloscope across the binding posts and look at the waveform. Clipped signals have flat tops.

So I play music and an oscilloscope would show me if the amp clips?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Yes.

Pretty broad statement. All amps use the same technique to show clipping?
post #16804 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Pretty broad statement. All amps use the same technique to show clipping?
I think FMW is saying that if a pro amp has a clipping indicator, it reliably reports when the amp is clipping. Seems reasonable.
post #16805 of 17194
^
I have seen so many issues even with pro gear that such an assumption doesn't appear reasonable to me.
How do those "pro amp" peak meters work? Do they show if the amp is clipping under the specific load of the connected speaker or do they simply monitor the input signal?
Edited by markus767 - 1/6/14 at 3:44am
post #16806 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
I have seen so many issues even with pro gear that such an assumption doesn't appear reasonable to me.
How do those "pro amp" peak meters work? Do they show if the amp is clipping under the specific load of the connected speaker or do they simply monitor the input signal?

Then don't accept the statement. Nobody is twisting your arm.
post #16807 of 17194
^
Could you also comment on the technical aspects?
post #16808 of 17194
It is unlikely that clipping indicators are too sensitive. So, if they are illuminating you are clipping.

- Rich
post #16809 of 17194
^
Not what anybody claimed. Those clipping indicators would need to show clipping the moment it occurs. The question was if those indicators are reliable in reporting "clipping under the specific load of the connected speaker".

Furthermore the initial question wasn't addressed yet. Lots of hand waving but no answers.
post #16810 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Not what anybody claimed. Those clipping indicators would need to show clipping the moment it occurs. The question was if those indicators are reliable in reporting "clipping under the specific load of the connected speaker".

Furthermore the initial question wasn't addressed yet. Lots of hand waving but no answers.

A co-worker used to say to me: "Your prayers have been answered and the answer is no" tongue.gif

The analysis has to involve a persons listening habits and if they drive their system hard. It is desirable to know the speakers real impedance and phase characteristics over a range of frequencies.

I am a big believer in having ample amplifier power and being conservative about it. That means a bit more.

I like seperates because once you have the right amp because you can change out the pieces as your needs and technology moves along. If you buy a great amp, you should be able to use it for 10 years or more.

But, there are folks who would never stress and AVR's limits so they do not need a big amp.

When friends ask me what to buy, I start asking questions. wink.gif

- Rich
post #16811 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The analysis has to involve a persons listening habits and if they drive their system hard, it is desirable to know the speakers real impedance and phase characteristics over a range of frequencies.

Go on.
post #16812 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Pretty broad statement. All amps use the same technique to show clipping?
I think FMW is saying that if a pro amp has a clipping indicator, it reliably reports when the amp is clipping. Seems reasonable.

It's true every time I bench test an amp. Even some fairly simple clipping indicators such as the $0.50 parts value one used by QSC trigger at like 0.02% THD which is way below audibility. The QSC clipping indicator impresses because its inside the feedback loop and starts flashing as soon at the output stage starts loosing gain. IOW it gives an indication based on only assumptions that are true regardless of what causes the clipping - reactive load, low power line voltage, broken amp, etc.
post #16813 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Not what I was asking. The question was, "How can the average consumer make sure that his combination of amp, speaker and listening level is adequate?"

If his power amps lack a good clipping indicator, there is no absolutely reliable way for the average consumer to know that his amp is adequate or inadequate. Good clipping indicators make all the difference and need not add a lot to the price of equipment.
post #16814 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

And how exactly do you do it? Does a clipping indicator on a "pro audio amp" reliably show clipping?

Here is a good article from an installer goes through an analysis of power requirements, RMS, and sizing.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/781208/emotiva-thread-q-a-technical-talk-only/16770

I plugged my system into a calculator and discussed that in this post.

1) Some questions to ask:
What are your listening habits?
Do you play it loud?
Do you have a SPL meter to measure how loud?
What are your speakers?
Can we find some impedance and phase measurements?

2) Plug the measured efficiency rating into a power calculator

If you have you have a speaker with a combination of low impedance and challenging phase angles, then a lot of heat will be disappated by the transitors when driven hard.
There have been posts byThiel (90DB efficiency) owners with AVR's that shutdown even though they state that the volume was moderate.
No telling what moderate means.

Common sense can also be applied. Obviously, you probably should consider an amp for full range speaker costing thousands of dollars.
Especially, when you can buy a hell of a lot of amp for a fraction of the cost.

- Rich
Edited by RichB - 1/6/14 at 8:04am
post #16815 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If his power amps lack a good clipping indicator, there is no absolutely reliable way for the average consumer to know that his amp is adequate or inadequate. Good clipping indicators make all the difference and need not add a lot to the price of equipment.

How does the average consumer know if his amp has a "good" clipping indicator?

P.S. Because this is an Emotiva thread: which Emotiva amps have "good" clipping indicators?
Edited by markus767 - 1/6/14 at 8:23am
post #16816 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Here is a good article from an installer goes through an analysis of power requirements, RMS, and sizing.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/781208/emotiva-thread-q-a-technical-talk-only/16770

I plugged my system into a calculator and discussed that in this post.

1) Some questions to ask:
What are your listening habits?
Do you play it loud?
Do you have a SPL meter to measure how loud?
What are your speakers?
Can we find some impedance and phase measurements?

2) Plug the measured efficiency rating into a power calculator

If you have you have a speaker with a combination of low impedance and challenging phase angles, then a lot of heat will be disappated by the transitors when driven hard.
There have been posts byThiel (90DB efficiency) owners with AVR's that shutdown even though they state that the volume was moderate.
No telling what moderate means.

Common sense can also be applied. Obviously, you probably should consider an amp for full range speaker costing thousands of dollars.
Especially, when you can buy a hell of a lot of amp for a fraction of the cost.

- Rich

How does this help determining amp clipping?
post #16817 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

How does this help determining amp clipping?

How do you go about determining if a specific amp is clipping with or without meters?

Bill
post #16818 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

How does this help determining amp clipping?

This was about sizing your amp.
If it is undersized for your use, then it will be clipping.

If you are turning the volume up and hearing distortion, then it is clipping.
If you are turning the volume up and the it is not getting louder, you may be clipping or your speakers may be at their limits.

Emotiva amps have meters.
Most AVR's do not.
Outlaw amps do not.
ATI amps have indicators.
Parasound Amps do not.

It would be nice if all amps had them.
But even if they did, they are usually slow so they may not illuminate until the clipping is regular.

- Rich
post #16819 of 17194
^
Sorry that's just more hand waving. You don't need to respond to questions you don't have answers to.
post #16820 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

How do you go about determining if a specific amp is clipping with or without meters?

Bill

Are you asking me? Why? Someone that asks a question usually doesn't have the answer. That's the reason why he's asking the question in the first place.
post #16821 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Are you asking me? Why? Someone that asks a question usually doesn't have the answer. That's the reason why he's asking the question in the first place.

I'd say it is quite obvious that I'm asking you. I'm asking as I'm curious as to how you determine if an amp is clipping. Who's "he"? If it is "you" that doesn't have the answer of how to determine if an amp is clipping you certainly seem to be shooting down everyone's explanation so far.

Bill
post #16822 of 17194
^
Err, what explanations? There haven't been any. Here where the discussion started: http://www.avsforum.com/t/781208/emotiva-thread-q-a-technical-talk-only/16770#post_24162569
post #16823 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Err, what explanations? There haven't been any. Here where the discussion started: http://www.avsforum.com/t/781208/emotiva-thread-q-a-technical-talk-only/16770#post_24162569

I've been following the discussion all along thanks smile.gif. People are giving their interpretations of amp clipping and you are just shooting them down. It almost seems like you know the answer to your question but just want to play the game of not knowing wink.gif. If you honestly don't know the answer why do you keep saying all some are doing is "more hand waving"?

Bill
post #16824 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^

...The question remains: "How can the average consumer make sure that his combination of amp, speaker and listening level is adequate?"

Ummm.... I don't mean this answer to seem flippant or get in the way of the scientific discussion, but the "average" person who comes on with the question will they benefit from an external amp usually wants to buy one.

From most of what I read about Emotiva and others, at the very least they won't be worse than what they have in their AVRs (for their purposes/requirements) but I do wonder why they go from one brand to the next....
Edited by Zen Traveler - 1/6/14 at 11:18am
post #16825 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I've been following the discussion all along thanks smile.gif. People are giving their interpretations of amp clipping and you are just shooting them down. It almost seems like you know the answer to your question but just want to play the game of not knowing wink.gif. If you honestly don't know the answer why do you keep saying all some are doing is "more hand waving"?

Bill

The term is argumentative. If he wants to contribute he can state his case and his reasons. Otherwise, he should be ignored.
post #16826 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If his power amps lack a good clipping indicator, there is no absolutely reliable way for the average consumer to know that his amp is adequate or inadequate. Good clipping indicators make all the difference and need not add a lot to the price of equipment.

How does the average consumer know if his amp has a "good" clipping indicator?

P.S. Because this is an Emotiva thread: which Emotiva amps have "good" clipping indicators?

AFAIK no independent equipment tester is checking the operation of clipping indicators.

Going more on-topic. I just checked Emotiva's web site and the user's guide for their top amp. I can't find mention of word clip nor any forms it on the site or in their documentation. Can anybody clarify this for me?

Given that the most important accomplishment of an amplifier is to not clip in real-world usage, I get the impression that they are selling good feelings, not good sound.
post #16827 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

The term is argumentative. If he wants to contribute he can state his case and his reasons. Otherwise, he should be ignored.

I agree.

Bill
post #16828 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^

...The question remains: "How can the average consumer make sure that his combination of amp, speaker and listening level is adequate?"

Ummm.... I don't mean this answer to seem flippant or get in the way of the scientific discussion, but the "average" person who comes on with the question will they benefit from an external amp usually wants to buy one.

From most of what I read about Emotiva and others, at the very least they won't be worse than what they have in their AVRs (for their purposes/requirements) but I do wonder why they go from one brand to the next....

I can construct an argument that the UPA series amps may cause a slight decrease in clean SPL when used to *upgrade* some AVRs.
post #16829 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I can construct an argument that the UPA series amps may cause a slight decrease in clean SPL when used to *upgrade* some AVRs.

Fantastic! You are one of the ones who convinced me I wouldn't benefit from an external amp. smile.gif That said, I have no opinion on the Emotiva amps and will let you guys carry on with the scientific discussion.
Edited by Zen Traveler - 1/6/14 at 12:13pm
post #16830 of 17194
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

AFAIK no independent equipment tester is checking the operation of clipping indicators.

Going more on-topic. I just checked Emotiva's web site and the user's guide for their top amp. I can't find mention of word clip nor any forms it on the site or in their documentation. Can anybody clarify this for me?

Given that the most important accomplishment of an amplifier is to not clip in real-world usage, I get the impression that they are selling good feelings, not good sound.


My pioneer AVR doesn't have clipping indicators.
Actually I don't see many AVRs with them.

So everyone is selling good feelings? wink.gif
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