EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 103

Well I'm not sure there's going to be a enormous difference between the amp sections for those two units. Your speakers are relatively easy to drive (8 ohm) and moderately efficient. So 200 wpc vs 140 wpc isn't going to be enormously different.

So I suspect it's largely going to come down to the the bells and whistles on the two units. The XMC-1 will probably have an edge in inputs. But it's impossible to say at this point how the other stuff is going to shake out (video processing, surround modes, OSD, room EQ, ease of use).

The one other possible factor is how likely you are to chuck the Pre-pro in a couple of years for the new hotness. Getting to keep the amp might tilt the analysis, but separate pre/pros do tend to be expensive. So it might be a wash in terms long term costs.

I wouldn't even have been considering separates if the XPA-5 and the UMC-1 weren't so "reasonably" priced.

huge difference between the MPS-2 and pio. The pio doesnt even put out 140 with all 7 channel driven. Also the MPS is basically made up of 7 monoblocks

Has that been proven by testing? They do claim 140x7 all channels driven for it on their web site.

Just keep in mind that not all people think that electronics make a difference if they fall within a certain spec range. Others do think that they make a difference. TPnBobcats falls into the no difference between them other than specs camp, Bigred7078 feels that they do.

For what it matters I have heard differences beyond maximum output or specs. Of course, in another thread TPnBobcats also compared my thought on the matter as being akin to believing in UFO's (no offense taken and I am not trying to start anything, those are his thoughts, that's fine).

You mean theres no such things as UFO's?????? Next you'll tell me theres no such thing as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny

I hate to break it to you, but the UFO's abducted Santa Claus while the Easter Bunny was visiting.

Gene just complete a review on the pio 07 this December!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r.../pioneer-sc-07

Here is an excerpt on the amp:

"Preamp Section

I measured about 10dB of preamplifier gain which is considerably lower (ideally 13dB or more) than I'd like to see from a preamplifier but figured it must have been deliberately done for proper volume scaling of all of the post processing such as THX, MCACC and TrueHD / DTS-HD decoding. This could present a problem of achieving full power when listening to low level sources and using external amplifiers with relatively low voltage gain structures. I was unable to find a way to increase input trim level to boost the gain like I have seen on other brands in the past.

The SC-07 was able to produce 3Vrms unclipped via the multi-channel analog outputs which is plenty of signal to drive any amplifier into clipping. I was unable to sweep beyond 40kHz without the preamp shutting off because of the overshoot caused by the reconstruction filter (typical of Class D designs). But the frequency response from 20Hz to 20kHz was ruler flat with a gradual rise up to 40kHz.

Bass management was NOT active for the multi-channel inputs so if you're using a Blu-ray player to do the decoding, make sure you enable the player's bass management controls.
Power Amp Section

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...iew_fullscreen


Pioneer SC-07 Power Bandwidth Measurement

When driving an 8-ohm load, the SC-07 did very well in exceeding its stated 140wpc rating. Because of the higher efficiency of the amplifier design, 1CH and 2CH measurements were virtually identical since the power demand from the wall outlet was less, resulting in no appreciable line sag.

Driving 4-ohm loads was an entirely different story. The SC-07 simply fell apart when running full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) continuous power measurements. As I tested at frequencies above 5kHz with only 1 channel driven, the internal cooling fan would instantly come on right before the receiver would go into gross distortion and shut down at levels above 100 watts. With two-channels driven, I was able to squeeze out a clean 150wpc at less than 0.5% THD. Anything higher would again run the amps into gross distortion and shut off the receiver. I was a bit perplexed in how the receiver managed to better cope with 2 channels driven over 1 and could only surmise that it had something to do with symmetrical load balancing on the power supply. How this receiver was awarded the THX Ultra2 rating was a bit perplexing to me.

Power output: <0.1% THD + N
1CH, 8-ohms: 150wpc
2CH, 8-ohms: 150wpc
1CH, 4-ohms: 290wpc (1kHz, conditionally)
2CH, 4-ohms: 280wpc (1kHz, conditionally)

Keep in mind most review publications don't do full bandwidth continuous power measurements and they usually publish power measurements into clipping at 1% THD + N at 1kHz. I've seen this receiver reviewed in other home theater publications where they raved about its power capability and it is clearly obvious to me that they didn't actually run full bandwidth continuous sweeps into 4-ohm loads. This is something I do of all receivers regardless of price.

For more info on amplifier measurements, see: The All Channels Driven (ACD) Test"

lol so does every other receiver on the market....

MOST receivers (not all) dont really come close to their tested power ratings. Although some (like H/K, denon, and onkyo) come semi close. They just tend to have smaller power supplies and cheaper build qualities.

Here is an example i had on hand about how some receivers when properly bench tested just dont quite add up. http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html


But i was just doing some reading on the SC-07. It gets pretty decent reviews for its amp section driving 8ohm speakers, but does pretty bad with 4ohm loads with low sensitivity. The SC-07 was measured at 150 watts driving 2 channels. With 7 channels driven well...its going to be considerably less. The good thing about the ice amps is that they are pretty efficient, at least for 8ohms.

^ haha whoops i was beaten to it.

Thanks for the feedback. I did read that you need separates more if you

1) Have a large room,
2) Have inefficient speakers and
3) Play it loud.

My room is 16 x 21 x 12' vaulted ceiling, so fairly big. But my speakers are pretty efficient and I do NOT play it loud. I like to keep my hearing and not engender retaliation from surrounding houses.

I thought one would hear a real diff in the Emotiva combo I'm thinking of (MPS-2 amp and XMC pre-pro when it comes out) v. the Pio. 07, but you all seem to be saying no, not a huge difference in SQ, at least if you play both at normal sound levels. One owner of a Pio. 07 said it sounded a little thin and bright, but he was comparing it to a flagship Pio receiver that cost A LOT when new- the 59 TXi, I believe. I'd sure be willing to pay $2600 for the Emotiva combo v. $1700 street for the 07 if it sounded a lot better, but you all are not encouraging me in that. I really appreciate the advice. I guess the Emotivas are for those with big rooms and inefficient speakers who really crank it up.

Thanks for clarifying that, If I go with the XPA-5 then this is the way I'd hook it up.


Thanks for the response, after reading what JTik posted I figure I might actually make use of the 5 channels from the XPA-5 anyway, still mulling it over though.

Does emotiva power amps support 230v?

Is this strictly for HT? If you like music too, then an amp can still benefit you quite a bit. IMO an amp is not just for the higher volumes, but allowing you to get a fuller heftier sound at a low volume as well and still allowing you to hear the small nuances.

And im one of the people that does not prefer the ICE amps that pioneer employs. To me they do sound thin and weak, but that could be just my preferenes. I do know alot of people love the new pioneers and enjoy their ice amps. To me though the ice amp technology is much better in the stand alone amplifiers that alot of companies are starting to develop and distribute.

My advice is if you really like the Pioneer is to pick it up at say a local BB mag store (because of the 30 day return policy) and take it home and try it on your system. IF the sound is pleasing then keep it, if you feel like you need more, then order an emotiva amp and give it the trial run.

Yes, they do. I didn't check all the models, but if the XPA-5 and the UPA-2 (the low end amp) both do. I figure they all are.


Actually, low resistance speakers (4 ohm or less), more than inefficent speakers, are one of the areas where the external amps shine much more than those of AVRs, since very few AVRs drive low resistance speakers well. With low resistance, inefficient speakers you will definitely hear a difference.

Apparently though, the amp section in the SC-07 sucks far more than I'd have expected for a one notch below the top of the line unit. So you may well hear a significant difference.

Also, given that we don't know what the XMC-1 does/has. It's kind of difficult to determine if the functionality of the units may be worth the price difference. But $1,000 is a significant chunk of change.


The XPA-5 is a terrific amp, I am very pleased with mine. So's the XPA-3 I'm sure. I doubt you'll be disappointed with either.

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com...ay&thread=2757

Hello my fellow Emo Dweebes!

I have a 10+year old sub and now that I have all this power with my XPA-3 and have been doing more critical listening my sub is sounding too muddy!!!

It is a NHT sealed box design with a 10" driver and external 80W amp that mounts in the entertainment center.

I have been reading up on those that have a reputation for music and LFE for Movie.

It seems that the single driver mass market subs do well for movies but the single driver is not fast enough on music and the change dynamics are quick versus on movies where you have a more sustained time on say a bomb blast.

It seems the really reputable models out there and man there are dozens upon dozens are;

1) Genesis Servo Sub 4/8 $2800 two 8" drivers and other whizz bangs
2) Vandersteen 2wQ ($1200) Three 8" drivers and complicated to set-up as you attach off the main speaker post so it can synchronize to the amp driving your fronts. You give the Db of the speaker and rating on the amp..
3) Rel all they make are subs.

I usually try to figure things out a bit before lobbing a "I don't know anything question" so I went to Emo lounge to see what was being said on their Sub product development. They had an impressive GUI that would allow you to change all settings which makes my need to have an external amp not so necessary and this GUI looked impressive.

QUESTION: "Does anyone know if Emotiva is going to go with Sealed box, single or multiple drivers per cabinett"? I am hoping EMO comes in and knocks another one out of the park. The 3 above are too much coin for my tastes!

I ended up ordering the BlueJeans despite them telling me not too!! So we will see on that. I also have been looking at DAC Magic from Cambridge audio for upsampling std CD. I will wait for the OPPO BD player and decide later on as my CD does not have a digital audio out and that is required for the DAC Magic.

I am getting the bug on this stuff. I sure hope spring gets here soon so I can start sailing and stop reading this stuff all night!

I used to buy into the philosophy about smaller sub drivers being "faster." I don't anymore. In my main system, I have a HGS15II and a DD18 and I can say with certainty they're not slower than any other smaller driver sub. Dynamics are quick and tight. As a point of reference, I have a HGS12II sub in my 2 channel system to do some quick comparisons.

Can somebody explain what (watts) I will likely achieve with the mirages when coupled with the xpa-3?

Front left/right (omd15)
Recommended Amplifier Power 25-250 Watts (unclipped)
Impedance 6 Ohms Nominal / 4 Ohms Minimum

Center channel (omd-c2)
Recommended Amplifier Power 25-200 Watts (unclipped)
Impedance 6 Ohms nominal / 4 Ohms minimum

So the speakers above are considered to be 4 ohm? which I will get the the watts as:

4 ohm rating:
3 channels - 4 ohm = 300 watts per channel

Sorry for the newbie question.

tnt

Yes 300 wpc at 4 ohm. But since you are looking at something between 4 and 6 ohms, it will mostly likely be between 250 wpc and 300 wpc. Which is essentially no difference.


I've been very pleased with my SVS Sub. Have you looked at them?

http://www.svsound.com/index.cfm

Thanks sir!! I am thinking of powering the fronts/center with the xpa-3 and use the onkyo to power the surrounds.

The onkyo 805 spec:
Fronts:

130 W + 130 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
150 W + 150 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
160 W + 160 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)

Center:

130 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.05%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
150 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%, 2 channels
driven, FTC)
160 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels
driven, FTC)

Would I see an improvement on the xpa-3?

TIA,
tnt

I have the XPA-3 doing the same as you are proposing except my Denon is running the surrounds. I can definitely say that getting the amp will absolutely put to rest any question of quality and performance on that role for your AV setup.

It is a team sport this little AV hobby we have, and equivalent attention to the other source devices need to be obliged as well! You know the ol "Garbage in Garbage Out" and I do not believe it is fair to blame the Amp if there are other weak links in your set-up. For me I know my source device for CD a 1994 vintage Technics with a 1 bit MASH DAC ain't no stellar performer. Even so I could still tell a big difference on some of the CD's that I know by heart and published in a previous post.

This weekend being a drummer in the past put in the Police disk Zenyatta Mondatta and played "Voices in my Head" by Stewart Copeland the Drummer and also "When the world is coming down" and Stewart Copeland is a syncopated style drummer which was my style too where he works the kit with inventive high skill play!

The kick drum is still just a little not tight for me but it is not the amp as I was tapping my foot, hand under my chin, looking at that sub thinking "Buddy, your service is about to expire", I also ordered the Blue Jean Cables for interconnects but will not replace that $80 CD player till the OPPO comes out.

In Summary: I think we all have to give due consideration to all components that are creating our soundstage and I can give you my absolute opinion that the Amps from Emotiva as they are integrated into your system will not ever be the weak link if you balance it appropriately to your other investments.

Whats that mean???

Buy the XPA-3..............It's on sale and will be an additional point of pride in your arsenal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most likely. They are only giving specs for 2 channels driven, so odds are they're playing games with the amp numbers and they won't deliver the rated wattage when driving all channels. This typically gets worse with the lower resistance speakers since it takes more current to deliver the rated power.

Very nice. I got the Police "Certifiable" blu ray discs. Great disc to demo.

What model is your denon?

tnt

It is my third Denon and this one is the 3803 (six years old and now coupled with the DVDO VP 20 as the video processor plus the XPA, the Denon is now just audio switch, amp for surrounds, and such). I am waiting for the XMC for me and my brother-in-law is patiently waiting for me to upgrade so he can get this gift from me in the form of the Denon! I did not know about the Blu ray and am really looking forward to collecting some of the video and audio material. I am filling my Amazon "Wish list" on a pretty regular basis!!

My newphew is getting stuff from me too . I gave him my first lcd (westin 32"). I have the onkyo 604 and appo 970 stacked in the room for almost a year now without being used. I haven't offered to him yet.

Tnt

I am actually in the same boat. I just currently replaced my onkyo 605 which had no preouts with a new pioneer elite with preouts in the hope of getting a emotiva amp one day. Well I came across a sale on some Klipsch speakers and upgraded my current ones to bigger ones. I got the RF63 mains with the RC64 center. I looked at the UPA 7 first for powering my whole setup which would give me 140 watts per channel. I then saw the XPA3 which could power my front stage since they take more power. I have little RS42s for surround and they only take 75 watts rms. I was planning on powering those with the pioneer receiver for now. I could always get a upa2 or something later if I decided to. I just feel that the XPA3 would be a great choice since 1. it is on sale, and 2. it has more power than the upa7. The XPA5 would be my first choice, but it is a little pricey. $499 for the XPA3 is awesome. let me know what you guys think.

I'm still amplifier crazy trying to find a good fit for my Paradigm Signature 8's and even more importantly my Signature C5.

I want the best sounding amp in every way to power my center speaker because my use is mainly home theather and so much of a movie comes from the center as well. My fear is that I will get an amp that's powerful and that's it. I need an amp that has good dynamics and is very detailed has tremendous clarity as well. From what I've read, the XPA-1 has been reviewed and it was mentioned the clarity and detail from this amp. So, trying to be affordable here, I thought about using an XPA-1 for the center, an XPA-2 for the Left/Right mains and the XPA-5 for all of the surrounds. A more expensive alternative would be having 3 XPA-1's for the front 3 and an XPA-5 but that puts me in the upper $3000 range which is right where the Outlaw 7900 sits at 7x300 wpc and it's fully balanced as well for all 7 channels.

The other amps I have looked at seriously have been the Anthem A5/A2 and the Outlaw 7900 fully balanced amp.

I'm currently using my Onkyo 805 receiver which does no justic to my Signatures but I thought about using the pre-outs of the 805 when I get my amps and then as finances allow, I would go forth in my search for a good preamp/processor as well.

Does anyone who has experience with the XPA-1 able to compare that to the sound of the Outlaw 7900 or the Anthem A5 or A2? I feel I'd definitely get the Emotiva for surrounds. That's a very easy decision or I could use the surround outputs from my receiver for a while.

I may hold onto my Onkyo 805 enough to see what happens with Emotiva's surround sound processor that is supposed to come out in a few weeks/months.

Thanks!

Those are nice speakers. You need to just use the 805 as the pre for now. Get amps!!!

Tony

Tony:

That's what I'm planning to do... is to use my Onkyo 805 for my preamp right now, but it's the decision on which amps to get that is driving me nuts. In addition to Emotiva, I've been checking out the Anthem A5/A2 amps as well as the Outlaw 7900. Of course these last two amps are more expensive, but they are also very powerful and balanced a well. I feel that the Anthem and Paradigm speakers have some kind of synergistic blend. I'd definite use emotiva for powering the surround speakers but for the front 3 and especially the center speaker, I want the best possible amp to bring out the best of everything in the center channel.

Wait until you can afford to get what you want. I have been changing stuff often getting stuff that I could afford but not want .

As a result, it ends up costing more plus the wife thinks its non stop.

I am also looking at the sunfire, emotiva, etc.

Tony

if you wait until you can afford something, sometimes, you never do. lol