EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 112

Originally Posted by T-Bone

I take issue with "There is no reason for them to "lie" about built in surge protection, no reason at all."

Their XPA-2 specs state 120,000 uF of capacitance. Yeah, they have 12 caps, each rated at 10,000 uF. But they are not all wired in parallel (that would be required to reach 120,000 uF). They are wired in series-parallel. Effective capacitance is MUCH lower than 120,000 uF. Why would they claim a capacitance value that is not correct? It's called specmanship. They lied to sell a product.

-T

Originally Posted by MondoRock

I'm debating selling my Monster HTS 5100 and replacing it with the APC H15. Do you think the Monster unit provides anything that the APC unit doesn't?

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm
• Secondary capacitance: 54,000uF

Where are you getting this 120,000 uF of capacitance? This Secondary Capacitance is the only thing I could find on the web page in the technical specs that references capacitance.

AFAIK, the only source of this 120,000 was from some pre-release tech specs that were incorrect and were corrected. Hardly "lying".

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com...65&page=3#2128

"Right now there are 12) 10,000 uF caps in total. But they are wired in series pairs. Which basically means that it has 30,000uF of capacitance as it is now. I made a mistake when I wrote out the orginal spec sheet for Dann as I just took the 12 x 10,000 rating which is not correct. So even though the power supply is as solid as a rock, I still want to up the capacitance on it. That being said we will probably double what you see in the pics."

Sounds like they are being pretty honest and up front about things. 54k isn't quite double, but it's close enough for me.

Originally Posted by T-Bone

I got it from this review. Dated Oct 2008. See section Design Overview, third paragraph. Also, read the rest of the Design Overview for what they say about the size of the toroid being 1.2 KVA vs 1.6 KVA.

-T

Not only did the XPA-2 stomp the RPA-1 in terms of sheer output power, but it also bested my $7k 10 channel Denon POA-A1HDCI by a considerable margin. For example, with 1 CH driven into 8 ohms the XPA-2 delivered a whopping 312 watts while the POA-A1HDCI delivered around 185 watts. In 4 ohm loads, the XPA-2 delivered 515 watts while the POA-A1HDCI delivered 300 watts. In bridged mode it was especially interesting how the XPA-2 delivered nearly 2X the power of the POA-A1HDCI belting out 860 watts and sagging my 20A line from 119Vrms to 116Vrms in the process. This amplifier was so powerful that I had to create an elaborate series-parallel wiring scheme for my power resistors to avoid them turning into a grilled cheese sandwich. I was unable to achieve the 1 kwatt power that the XPA-2 is speced for in bridged mode but I am sure its achievable (at least momentarily) into hard clipping when using a variac to keep the line voltage at a constant 120Vrms. This is NOT a real world test scenario and one I don't subscribe to when doing power tests.

I didn't test the XPA-2 into a 4 ohm load bridged since Emotiva didn't spec this, and I noted the power line sag was becoming quite a factor due to the sheer power of this amp. But, I would suspect based on the 1.2kVa transformer and the 65% measured efficiency that this amp would likely deliver around 900 watts or so into a 4 ohm load.

Keep in mind most review publications test at clipping and don't do continuous power measurements so our power numbers are usually a lot more conservative than what you typically find from other reviewers.

For more info, see: The All Channels Driven (ACD) Test

That being said, the XPA-2 exceeded its power specifications by considerable margins. Into 8 ohms it was rated to 250 watts at 1% THD , yet I measured 312 watts at 0.1% THD. Into 4 ohm loads it was rated to 500 watts at 1% THD while again my measurements exceeded this rating producing 512 watts at 0.1% THD. Make no mistake folks this is one POWERFUL amplifier and most definitely the most power for the money amplifier that has ever come across my test bench since I launched Audioholics nearly 10 years ago!

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

That doesn't sound like they need to be "lying" about their products. Try doing a bit more research before you start accusing people of lying.

Originally Posted by taketheredpill9

i recently picked-up a xpa-3 to power fronts and center in my 5.1 setup. I have 3808ci avr, 2 polk vm30's and 3 vm20's. I'm not sure what is was expecting from the xpa-3, but I hear little or no differenece in power or sound quality compared to using the 3808ci alone. Is that because my speakers aren't that demanding so the impact of the external amp is less? I'm trying to justify keeping it, but so far I haven't realized any benefit. I plan on calling Emotiva support for any suggestions before returning the amp.

Originally Posted by taketheredpill9

i recently picked-up a xpa-3 to power fronts and center in my 5.1 setup. I have 3808ci avr, 2 polk vm30's and 3 vm20's. I'm not sure what is was expecting from the xpa-3, but I hear little or no differenece in power or sound quality compared to using the 3808ci alone. Is that because my speakers aren't that demanding so the impact of the external amp is less? I'm trying to justify keeping it, but so far I haven't realized any benefit. I plan on calling Emotiva support for any suggestions before returning the amp.

Originally Posted by taketheredpill9

i recently picked-up a xpa-3 to power fronts and center in my 5.1 setup. I have 3808ci avr, 2 polk vm30's and 3 vm20's. I'm not sure what is was expecting from the xpa-3, but I hear little or no differenece in power or sound quality compared to using the 3808ci alone. Is that because my speakers aren't that demanding so the impact of the external amp is less? I'm trying to justify keeping it, but so far I haven't realized any benefit. I plan on calling Emotiva support for any suggestions before returning the amp.

Originally Posted by sticknstones

Hey MondoRock! My Monster HTS 3600 has performed flawlessly for over 7 years that I have owned it. I was not in the market for another until I read the reviews and price on the APC H15. My personal reasons for selling the monster and upgrading to the APC H15 was I would have 12 instead of 10 receptacles and I have maxed my connections. Secondly, the market value of the HTS 3600 allows me to make an almost even trade given the discount on the APC.

I am wanting a Blu-Ray and such so I need the expansion. I also had a built in entertainment center made and in hindsight I would have run another circuit from the panel but at the time I was not thinking about new everything. So it will be quite the ordeal for me to change this and I am very handy with electrical plus do all of my own residential wiring.

The other difference with the APC H15 is that it will also trim and boost the voltage to keep it as near 120V as it can given some settings that you choose.

Should you change????
Really that is up to you to decide if you need expansion or would you like to have the voltage regulating function. I did read the manual on your 5100 and it seems like a good unit.

The only other difference and not overly important to me is the APC cites safety approvals from UL, FCC and others and I could not find an equivalent mention in my manual for the HTS.

I personally do not know how to decipher what Monster refers to in its proprietary label for Version 2 Stage 3 or Stage 4 V2.1 Mine is the former and yours is the latter.

I hope this helps a bit.....

-----------------------------

Ummm okay my eager EMOticians with them flame throwing fingers tread lightly on my comments please.....

Originally Posted by T-Bone

One thing I've read time and time again is this: most companies play fast and loose with specs... except for the reputible companies. Emo played fast and loose. What makes it worse is that Lonnie posts something in Feb, and the specs for the Oct review (8 months later) were still incorrect.

Lying, Specmanship... it's all the same. Either Emo lied, or was really frickin' sloppy with the specs. Does not mean they make crappy amps... it just means they acted like 99% of the AV companies by lying, and their specs are suspect. Sorry, I mean they had several typos and misstatements in their specs.

-T

Originally Posted by T-Bone

One thing I've read time and time again is this: most companies play fast and loose with specs... except for the reputible companies. Emo played fast and loose. What makes it worse is that Lonnie posts something in Feb, and the specs for the Oct review (8 months later) were still incorrect.

Lying, Specmanship... it's all the same. Either Emo lied, or was really frickin' sloppy with the specs. Does not mean they make crappy amps... it just means they acted like 99% of the AV companies by lying, and their specs are suspect. Sorry, I mean they had several typos and misstatements in their specs.

-T

Originally Posted by Decepticon07

I am thinking of upgrading from my XPA-5 to the MPS-2. Any folks here who have owned both? Is it a worthwhile upgrade?

Another option is adding an RPA-2 or XPA-2 to my existing XPA-5 for my 7-channel needs. What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by taketheredpill9

i recently picked-up a xpa-3 to power fronts and center in my 5.1 setup. I have 3808ci avr, 2 polk vm30's and 3 vm20's. I'm not sure what is was expecting from the xpa-3, but I hear little or no differenece in power or sound quality compared to using the 3808ci alone. Is that because my speakers aren't that demanding so the impact of the external amp is less? I'm trying to justify keeping it, but so far I haven't realized any benefit. I plan on calling Emotiva support for any suggestions before returning the amp.

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

Well, I guess you are right. I mean I know I certainly bought my XPA-5 because of the secondary capacitance rating. I mean why else would you buy an amp?

Can anyone who bought the XPA-2 because it said 120,000 uF of secondary capacitance on their web site or because it listed a 1.6 kva toroid instead of a 1.2 kva toroid, please raise their hand? Or even paid attention to either of those ratings? Knows what they are or even what they mean?

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

Well, I guess you are right. I mean I know I certainly bought my XPA-5 because of the secondary capacitance rating. I mean why else would you buy an amp?

Can anyone who bought the XPA-2 because it said 120,000 uF of secondary capacitance on their web site or because it listed a 1.6 kva toroid instead of a 1.2 kva toroid, please raise their hand? Or even paid attention to either of those ratings? Knows what they are or even what they mean?

Originally Posted by Decepticon07

I am thinking of upgrading from my XPA-5 to the MPS-2. Any folks here who have owned both? Is it a worthwhile upgrade?

Another option is adding an RPA-2 or XPA-2 to my existing XPA-5 for my 7-channel needs. What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by nezff

I definately think that your speakers are not benefiting as much as some other peoples. The reason is probably because the power rating is 20-175 watts and the efficiency of 89db. You could drive them fine with your denon. Someone like me who is debating on getting a XPA3 would probably benefit more from a seperate amp. My Klipsch RF63s have a 99db sesitivity and take 175 rms and 700 peak.

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats




You do realize that with your Klipsch's extremely high efficiency rating, you need significantly LESS power? If yours are 99db (which seems unusually high) you get the same output from 1 watt that my 88db speakers get from about 13 watts.

Originally Posted by T-Bone

Dude... what are you on? You act like no one buys pruducts based on spces. We're not all experts here... we started out as noobs... I am willing to bet that there are thousands on AVSForum that bought XXX (fill in the blank) receivers based on 100 W/ch, and passed on Harmon Kardons that put out 75 W/CH. Why? Cause we need those extra 25 watts man!!

Originally Posted by T-Bone

As for lying, I am from the school that believes when something is easy to fix (e.g. specs on a web page... takes a few minutes at most), and it is not fixed when they know it is incorrect, that is knowingly misleading the public (a.k.a. lying).

Originally Posted by nezff

everyone buys receivers and amps based on specs. I was one of them years ago. harmon kardon only puts out 75 watts per channel, well most people will think that their shiny new whatever receiver rated at 100 watts per channel will be better. The thing is the harmon puts out true power and some others dont really put their rated power which is on paper. Alot of people dont know this and will purchase product rated higher.


this is true, but they will definately sing even better with more power. especially 200 watts compared to lets say around 90-100 watts.
any NO 99db is not UNUSUALLY HIGH contrary to what you may think

frequency response 30Hz-21kHz +/-3dB
power handling 175W RMS / 700W Peak
sensitivity 99dB @ 2.83V / 1m
nominal impedance 8 ohms compatible
high freq crossover 1700Hz

Originally Posted by Aliens

Exactly. The general public doesn't buy on specs; they buy from word-of-mouth, advertising, product recognition, advice from the salesman, the aesthetics of the product, and past experience. They don't care whether some engineer has 2 or 20 years of experience. They don't care where the capacitor was made. They don't care whether the company is 5 years old or 50. What they care about is that they take the product home, plug it in, and work for years to come without any problems; something no company can guarantee. Not a company that's 5 years old or 100.

As I said in a previous post: AVS is the exception, not the norm.

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

The vast majority of speakers I've seen figures for, were in the 90-94 range. Given the 3db needs a doubling of power rule, 99 is quite high for speakers. I know the Klipschs, because of their horns do tend to be very efficient speakers, but 99 seemed high even for them.

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

The vast majority of speakers I've seen figures for, were in the 90-94 range. Given the 3db needs a doubling of power rule, 99 is quite high for speakers. I know the Klipschs, because of their horns do tend to be very efficient speakers, but 99 seemed high even for them.

Originally Posted by TPnBobcats

Capacitance is not a spec anyone other than people who believe in $1000 power cords are going to buy an amp based on. So if they were going to lie about something, it's a really bad choice to lie about.