DVD upscaling players work well?

This player will give you great video upscaling and great picture quality.

http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd.html

what ever you get don't get the Philips DVD player. I have a Vizio also, and it look like crap with philip dvd players. I am still trying to search for a good player that goes iwth it, but my brother who have a Sony LCD tv says the upconverting looks really good. Since blu ray and HDDVD is so expensive right now, i think it will be worth $100 - $150 to get a regular DVD. I will keep on trying from best buy and circuit city to get different brand and model of dvd player and see how those function.

Since different Philips players have different chipsets, if a TV has problems with all Philips players then it is likely a fault with the TV. The Philips 5960 uses the same chipset for scaling and deinterlacing as the Oppo 970, so if the Vizio doesn't work well with this player then it is unlikely to be hugely better with the Oppo. - DR

Gavin, upscaling on SD DVD players is more marketing than anything. Some AVSers report miraculous improvements while others, like myself, only see marginal results (and I'm using a 720p front projector throwing a 92" image). Keep in mind that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. That's the best way to keep it in perspective. If upscalers were a "magic bullet" that could transform SD DVDs into a true HD source, then there would be no need for either HD DVD or BD currently slugging it out.

That being said, the one definite improvement associated with upscalers that's often overlooked is their digital HDMI/DVI output. Most, if not all, upscalers have either HDMI or DVI, with the former becoming the dominant connection. Or to put it another way, most if not all players that have an HDMI or DVI output also have the upscaling feature. This is where true improvement can be made over analog video connections. The data on the disc is digital, it's digital through the player and the downstream display is digital. Why use an analog connection between the two?

An upscaler with an HDMI output can easily be had in the price range you mentioned. Why not just get one and try it. If you can see a difference with upscaling, great. If not, then at least you didn't spend a ton of coin and you still have the best possible connection to the display.

May I ask what type of equipment you are using for reference to voice this opinion? My experience has been a very noticable difference using an upconverting unit. Sure, there are several upconvert units that do not make much difference, but let me name a few that do. If you cannot see a sustantial difference with these, you need to get your eyes checked. Several of these units will have picture quality that rivals broadcast quality HD using a good transfer.

Oppo 970 - Regarded as the best upconverting DVD player in the under $200 range. Especially good with DLP's that have known macroblocking issues with Faroudja processors in upconvert DVD players.
Toshiba (HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-A2) Outstanding SD-DVD upconversion. Very very good upconversion units plus they also play HD-DVD's. $350-$499.
Onkyo DV-SP1000 - Oustanding SD-DVD upconversion. Also THX certified and plays SACD's and DVD-A's. $1500
Denon DVD-3930CI - Excellent unit. Upconverts to 1080p. $1500
Denon DVD-5910CI - Another Excellent unit, but doesn't come cheap. Upconverts to 1080p. $3500
Toshiba XA2 - The best upconvert unit under $1000 and could be the best of them all. Another thread linked below tested the XA2 against a Crystallio II which is a high end external image processor and the XA2 tested equal or better on all tests.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782887

Yeah, I just bought the XA2 (still waiting) based on those tests.

If an $800 HD-DVD player can upconvert SD-DVD's better than thousands of dollars in image processing equipment, and better than high-end upconverting players that cost well over $1000, and can also plays HD-DVD better than any current high def format player on either side?!?

That's an incredible achievement IMO.

DVD players = Oppo 970, Panny S77 (admitedly not the best), Samsung 860, Toshiba A1 (my friend has brought his over a few times for me to play with)
Projector = Optoma HD72 connected via HDMI (no switch box) and calibrated (not ISF, but as close as I can get with a spectrometer)
Screen = Da-Lite Model B 16:9 flat white at 92" diagonal
TV = don't ask!
Eyes = my prescription was updated just last year

Look, I agree that upscaling can make somewhat of a difference, given the right equipment combinations and calibration. But there's no way that an upscaler can make a true HD source out of SD DVD, period. There is simply not enough infomation on the disc to support a true HD image. The marketing BS in player glossies, datasheets and manuals more often than not try to convince you that such a thing is possible. This is what I resent, not the upscaling concept itself.

Thinking back to my brief experience as a recording engineer: even with two-inch tape, noise reduction, companding, etc., we were always limited by the original source when dubbing. There was simply no way around it.

To further defend my position...

Once again, my bud brought over his Toshiba A1 and MI:III on HD DVD last night. While not my favorite film, I do have it on SD DVD (picked up cheap at used media store). We A/Bed several scenes back to back and the clear winner for resolution was, no surprises here, HD DVD. Even at only 720p (native resolution of my HD72) there was no mistaking which was which. The upscaled SD DVD always fell short, even when sourced from my Oppo 970.

One final thought, suppose upscaling in DVD players never existed. Then the 480i/p signal would have to be scaled in the display to match its native resolution. This has to happen when the native resolution is higher than the 480 on the disc. Now add a scaler into the DVD player so the consumer has a choice between the one in the player and the one in the display. Granted, the algorithms are not exactly the same so yes there will be some discernable difference, but from my experience this is just splitting hairs. It's like the old days of LaserDisc and comb filters. Which do you use? The one in the player or the one in the TV? The answer was: you try both and choose the one that looks best. There were a lot of combinations I tried in those days that were just splitting hairs too.

This is apples to kumquats comparison. Of course a true HD DVD will look a little better. I think the original question was whether the HD DVD players are better, same, or worse in comparison with the Oppo on traditional upscaling of 480 material.

Yes, it is an unequal comparison. Any yes, HD DVD (or BD) will look better, how much better is for another debate. I only brought up the comparison in response to WirelessGuru's comment of:


Well, I've also had a Samsung SIR-451 ATSC tuner connected to my projector and I don't believe that upscaled DVD can match broadcast HD either. OTA HD still looks better. While my HD DVD vs. upsaled DVD comparison was apples to oranges, I think it illustrates that there are significant leaps in picture resolution that can only be had with updated technology (ie. HD DVD, BD, etc.). No matter how good the interpolation algorithms are in the scaler, it cannot create resolution that wasn't there in the first place.


Actually, the original question was whether upscaling SD DVD players are worth it or not. While I do agree there is some benefit (again, debatable to the point of nausea) of upscaling, I also strongly believe we should not delude ourselves into thinking it can make a true HD source out of SD DVD like the marketing would have us believe.

The original question was whether upscaling DVD players are that much better than SD DVD players, something I have wondered too. There's only so much that can be done with a disc with limited information on it.

EXACTLY!!! Thank you!

Absolutely agree and perhaps I am jumping in midstream, if so I apologize.

You cannot make SD DVD material into HD DVD material, agreed. I thought the discussion was what is the best upscaler for SD material. Some have said the HD DVD players have great upscalers, therefore it makes sense to spend extra for that, plus you have an "option" on the format war.

My view is to wait and maximize SD DVD picture quality for the lowest $$$ investment. Thats what I'm trying to figure out now. When Bluray or HDDVD becomes more prevalent, and all the new releases at Blockbuster are in that format, and the players cost $249 or less, I'll probably bite. That's my current thinking - check with me tomorrow and it'll probably change!

You're in the same boat I am in. Would love to upgrade, but not at the current prices of HD DVD or BR.

I've looked briefly at the BluRay kiosk at BB -- some of the split screens they show certainly show a difference in quality, but it is not as big a leap as SD TV to HD TV, at least in the short span I looked at it. Its more like being able to see some additional background details that would be fuzzy in the regular DVD. But I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking as I had to get in and out on a shopping mission for the wife.

Unfortunately, comparing players, displays, software, etc. through a written forum like this usually leads to a lot of conjecture and hearsay. And it's sometimes tough to articulate subtle details or debate points which may be nebulous at best. Opinions, without empirical proof to back them up, can only be taken at face value. Including my own hot air.


I don't know about anyone else, but I find those split-screen demos to be very misleading. If SD DVD were as fuzzy as they depict, there's no way I would be able to throw it up to 92" diagonal and still show my face to friends and family!

I've had 2 Sony upscalers and a Toshiba upscaler and the only time I can tell a difference is squinting at certain test patterns. And I have an excellent Sony HD RPTV that's well setup.

I have 2 DVD machines running into it, one an upscaler running 1080I or whatever it is through HDMI and the other running standard progressive through the component video. It makes little or no difference which I use. No big deal.

However both DVD machines look better than the Pioneer 704 LD player also running into it.

I think some see what they want to see to justify money spent and time wasted.
Sometimes this is the case and I am sure there are sometimes there is a difference in PQ.

I need to see a noticable difference to justify the expense. IF your going to spend 500-1000 then that is foolish with TRUE HD players coming down in price.

Those split screens are misleading. However, I saw a Blu Ray demo several weeks ago and actually had time to sit there and really look at it. I could see a noticable difference between a SD DVD and the Blu Ray. That being said, I'm still not ready to shell out that kind of money.

No doubt that both HD DVD and BD can beat SD DVD. I just think they're intentionally making the SD side a bit worse than necessary to artificially increase the jump up to either HD format. Hmmm, advertising stretching the truth?!

I'm an engineer. My world is, more often than not, black and white. It either works or it doesn't, it's either a solid product or it's junk. Once I'm done, enter marketing who spins everything to make the product sell, regardless of its inherent quality or lack thereof. They reinforce product strengths and bury deficiencies in technical jargon or specs. The last thing they want is to tell the truth. Then come the sales people who simply tell customers what they want to hear and invoice them as quickly as possible before the poor b*stards figure out what they just bought is not what they needed and is a POS to boot!

There's no doubt they make the SD version look worse when doing the split screen. But when I saw the Blu Ray, it was on a stand alone set. The movie they had playing was the same one I had seen a few weeks earlier and I had seen in HD on a preview when it was in the theaters. The Blu Ray quality was noticeably better, at least it was to me.

I think the discussion as already mentioned was a comparison of HD PQ and the upconverted SD PQ.

Actually, this what the OP wanted to know.

The large improvements reported by some also have to be taken in the context of what the previous player was. Not all the improvements noticed by some are due to the 'upscaling' but can be in fact due to simply using a 'better' player and/or a digital connection.

Very true!

On some players you can cycle between resolutions by pushing a button; this makes comparisons easy. On mine there is a small but nonnegligible improvement in picture when upconverting. In other threads, people have posted photos of the TV at various resolutions, and the differences were subtle but not undeniable, for example discrete background detail visible in one and not the other. - DR

Thats why I said 'large improvements'.

This may only mean that, in those particular cases, the player does a better job of upconverting than the particular display it is being used on at different resolutions. There are so many variables that there is no way to say, as a general statement, that upconverting players produce a better picture.

eg Assume a display has the exact same chipset and setup as the dvd player - theoretically there would be no difference. In another case, if the tv upconverts better than the dvd player, then the picture may well be worse with an upconverting player etc etc.

As so often happens in this field the only way to know is to try a particular player with your display and try all the outputs. Dont just assume it will be better because its an 'upconverting' player.

"This may only mean that, in those particular cases, the player does a better job of upconverting than the particular display it is being used on at different resolutions. There are so many variables that there is no way to say, as a general statement, that upconverting players produce a better picture."


A wise statement.

Exactly what I said ?