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FPS degredation: Why?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Since I've made the jump to the 360, I can't help but notice how the technology in many FPS has degraded. Before you flame me, here me out. I remember playing this killer xbox game called red faction 2. Although it sold like crap, this game was innovative for one huge reason: Fully destructable environments. I'm not talking about desks and urinals being blown up here. I'm talking about the ability to literally blow huge holes in walls and physically walk through them to the other side! Ever play mercenaries? You could flatten entire TOWNS with cannons, tanks, whatever (I think the outfit had some destruction like this one). Fast forward to shooters on the 360. Call of Duty 3 and Gears of War, widely considered the best shooters on this system each don't let you lay waste to your environment. COD 3 in particular was surprising and disappointing that they don't allow buildings to get flattened. Nothing is dumber than calling in a huge airstrike against a wood fram barn in this game and seeing the structure virtually unchanged after an .88 just went nuts on its roof. It bothers me that with the processor power of this system that they neglect this. Red Faction came out almost 5 years ago! You can't honestly tell me they can't achieve this effect. Here's another disturbing thing that is left out of many of these shooters: lack of bots. Remember perfect dark on n64? Bots were smart and deadly and made it possible to have an online-like experience and enjoy that aspect of the game even if you lacked a connection. Perfect dark on the 360? No bots. That sucks in my eyes. You can say "well just go online" all you want, but you would help to justify the laziness of these developers. I want these features in games from now on. I want higher standards with the improved technology. This means no more 30 frames per second because that is just laziness as well. Would it kill a studio to try something new as well? How about a mideval type of FPS similar to oblivion where barbarians sever heads and scantily clad amazon women hurl sharpened boomerangs at enemies? That would be great and oblivion proved that sword fighting and fps's are possible (not to mention unreal 2and it's sword fighting dynamic). I understand that Gears does some innovative things, but in the end it is just more of the same. It is sa stale genre and nobody seems to care, even though features from years past are being left on the cutting room floor that would at the very least make for some spectacular explosions. I want the laziness to stop and treat us right as gamers!
post #2 of 17
Well Oblivion and other such games you are talking about maybe innovative but they are not FPS. FPS is guys with guns shooting things from a first person perspective. It would be nice to have fully destructable environments and I am sure they would love to make games that dont have framerate issues. I am sure over time as developers get used to the technology we will see these things.

People are demanding quite a lot from developers. The console little over a year old so many of the games that are on it now started development before the console was even finalized. People want games and they want them NOW but they dont want to give the devs the TIME to make the games perfect. Also the devs dont have unlimited funds and the fact that people complain about in game advertising makes it even harder for them to get the funds necessary.

I am sure as developers get more time under their belt working with the 360 and the PS3 you will see more of what you are looking for. There are already a number of Oblivion like games in the works -- two worlds, overloard, Fable, kingdom under fire (perhaps). Mercenaries 2 will also be coming (at least for the PS3 and maybe 360) but we will see if it maintains its distructable environments. Remember Mercentaris and The Outfit may allow you to destruct alot but they are not exactly the most graphically pleasing games ever created either. Right now it is still more cost effective for the devs to create the graphics they way they are then to work on making glitch free destructable enviornments. I do hope we get those again sometime in the future however.
post #3 of 17
I agree every shooter should have every feature ever and take place in World War II. They should take six years to develop and cost $150 because of all the technologies they license. They should be built on the Unreal, Source, Doom, and Crytek engines, all of them.
post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThru22 View Post

I agree every shooter should have every feature ever and take place in World War II. They should take six years to develop and cost $150 because of all the technologies they license. They should be built on the Unreal, Source, Doom, and Crytek engines, all of them.

Pretty sure you missed the point. Nobody has patented destructible environments in videogames or bots. You're hopeless
post #5 of 17
Okay, let me refine my point. Other revolutionary features have been brought into the norm by the current crop of shooters and they can't afford the time or effort, especially considering the payoff, to add every little feature you would like into these current games. Sure Red Faction had destructible enviroments, but how did it look compared to Gears of War and Rainbow Six Vegas? Obviously, they chose different paths to take to advance the technology/gameplay. Hopefully, some other game will come along with the destructible environment gimmick, but that will be that particular game's thing.
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThru22 View Post

Okay, let me refine my point. Other revolutionary features have been brought into the norm by the current crop of shooters and they can't afford the time or effort, especially considering the payoff, to add every little feature you would like into these current games. Sure Red Faction had destructible enviroments, but how did it look compared to Gears of War and Rainbow Six Vegas? Obviously, they chose different paths to take to advance the technology/gameplay. Hopefully, some other game will come along with the destructible environment gimmick, but that will be that particular game's thing.

That's better and I appreciate you clarifying. I agree from a graphical standpoint these new games are far superior to Red Faction and other last gen games, but there is far more power under the hood this time around which is essentially my point here. It just seems like non destructable environments at this stage in the game is unacceptable given the power of the 360 and the fact they pulled it off last gen. If I'm not mistaken, Gears of War was in development for a LONG time, I'm not sure how long, but you would think they could have worked some kind of destructable environments in. And as far as the inclusion of bots in these games, this should be fairly easy because the ai of your enemies in these games is improving all the time and I would think they could just make lots of them and easier to kill over and over. To me, these two features are very achievable and I honestly think developers are just pushing out cookie cutters of games with better graphics and negelecting real advancement. COD 3 is my favorite game, maybe all time, but having a panzer tank lobbing shells at the 6 inch thick wall you are hiding behind over and over with nothing happening is just stupid plain and simple.
post #7 of 17
CPU and GPU power. Even if the CPU can handle the physics, the GPU still has to render the objects. So if the graphical power is already being taxed by the much nicer graphics, HDR, models and such then it might not have enough to give you the rest. You have to compromise.

A good thing to look up is the "Aegia PhysiX" card and how it effected FPS in a game. While it gave more physics, the GPU's was being hammered as it now had to deal with a lot more objects. This in-turn dropped the FPS.
post #8 of 17
I agree. Red Faction and Black both had amazingly destructable environments, and Black at least had incredible graphics to go with it. I expected pretty much every game on the next-gen to have that level of destructability, and have so far been disappointed.
post #9 of 17
Gears of War was in development for so long just to include what ended up in the final product.
post #10 of 17
Red Faction had more destruction than RF 2 FYI.
post #11 of 17
Maybe those games featured destructible environments, but the list of what next gen games include that wasn't present in the games you referenced is too long to list here.

The higher resolutions, particle effects, lighting, shadowing, smoke, animations, physics, etc. all demand a lot of resources from the hardware.

I think that as devs learn to pull more and more performance out of the 360 and the PS3 you will see detsructible environments to a greater degree across the board.

Remember, with not knowing how to efficiently code for a system, facing time and money constarints (don't forget if these devs had unlimited time and resources you would see GOW as a starting point in games!), all limit what it is we see on our TV's.

But as devs learn how to code efficiently, they will be able to have it all! Until the next effect comes along and we start the cycle all over again.

Look at GOW, and that is NOT maxing the 360 out. Look at RFOM (physics, buttery smooth framerate, 40 players online no lag) for the PS3, and not even the creators of the cell are sure how to get the most out of it, let alone Insomniac (developed RFOM) making a LAUNCH title.
post #12 of 17
I think that destructible environments take away from the gameplay. That's why I felt Halo 2 wasn't as great as it could have been. You didn't have the ability to destroy buildings but you could move little rocks and cones and other useless little stuff. I think the dev's put way too much effort into something that made no difference gameplay wise. I honestly could care less if I'm capable of leveling the whole city. Because after you've done that then what? I'd rather dev's focus on AI, graphics and gameplay. That single-handedly is the main reason why I bought Halo 1. I've never played a game where the enemy AI was such a challenge. We're way too far away from coming out with a game that simulates real life and costs less than $60.
post #13 of 17
I loved Red Faction 1. 2, not so such.

But I agree with the OP for the most part. Actually, this is one of my gripes with console fps's. It's all about the graphical wow factor. Gears is just stale with it's environments. Too linear as well. Nothing to blow up, only a few lamps and chairs/tables to chainsaw through. I think in the next year or so, you'll see stuff on the pc that will be crazy. Physics cards are only starting to come out now, that might be the next needed addon for a pc. Proper physics and more realistic environments will come.

Try RB6 btw. Actually quite good.
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for your responses. I guess I I fail to see all the other things developers must now put into games like the smoke, etc. I guess I'll just have to be patient, but my point is this: developers are trying to make the game as real as possible with the smoke effects, crazy human graphics, and other things. But how realistic is it when you shoot a panzerfaust at a wood barn and it takes no damage? That's just plain stupid and I'd gladly compromise some in the graphics department in exchange for some environment destruction.
post #15 of 17
How realistic is it that you'd even get the opportunity shoot a panzerfaust? Being able to shoot a rifle is part of my job and I can tell you that real life shooting isn't nowhere near as exciting as any current FPS" out there right now. I was in Iraq during the first wave and had tanks shooting and grenades going off around me. As exciting as it may sound still nowhere close to Halo 2 or 1 or COD 2 or 3.
post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogbuehi View Post

How realistic is it that you'd even get the opportunity shoot a panzerfaust? Being able to shoot a rifle is part of my job and I can tell you that real life shooting isn't nowhere near as exciting as any current FPS" out there right now. I was in Iraq during the first wave and had tanks shooting and grenades going off around me. As exciting as it may sound still nowhere close to Halo 2 or 1 or COD 2 or 3.

Respectully, I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Are you implying that being able to use these guns is in itself a huge selling point for a FPS? I think you are just making a statement that the fake stuff we play is more exciting that the real thing, which is what they are (no pun intended) shooting for of course. I hope I never have to go to real war and find out if what you say is true, believe me!
Oh by the way, I DO consider Oblivion to be a FPS in many respects although it is clearly a role playing game. All the dynamics of a FPS are present in the combat, especially the archery. It just doesn't involve guns. I'm no fan of copying game ideas, but they could come up with some great ideas that build on this type of combat
post #17 of 17
IMO this simple fact is we still really don't have all the power we think or thought we had. Yeah still pretty good overall, solid value. But not these humongous leaps marketing sells us time and again. The next setup to impress or disappoint will be Quads with 8800's and better come mid-year when those other couple of PC games come out touting physics out the yang. What will those really be like? What corners in the end did they cut? Trail of half truths and broken promises. So in the end the "fun" games still win and they can be in any genre.
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