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The Best Upgade to the Ferrara Theater Yet!

post #1 of 38
1/7/07 at 6:43am
Thread Starter 
Well, I was ready to by a new screen for the BEAST (Qualia 004), thinking that the latest Firehawk would improve ANSI contrast (known weakness of LCOS FP). Then, I read this thread: Improve ANSI CR
Got together with my buddy who's an interior decorator, and with a painting company who's done many HTs in the DC area. Aftere 4 days of hard work (and a layer of white dust all over my home!), the result:



The difference in picture quality is significant. I'm able to select a gamma curve that allows good detail in very dark areas, and at the same time provides better contrast in those scenes that used to be washed out. The picture is more 3-D, more pop. The black very flat ceiling is a key point, along with the darker flat walls.

BTW, I didn't save any money - but Stewart lost a sale.
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post #2 of 38
1/7/07 at 7:58am
I like the concept and the wall colour as well. Might apply some of your ideas for my theater area which contains a ruby.
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post #3 of 38
1/7/07 at 8:12am
Nice
Are those blackout window blinds, and if so, is the black fabric on the outside? If so you might want to reverse them. If not, you might consider replacing them with black fabric versions.
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post #4 of 38
1/7/07 at 8:33am
Hi J.Mike - glad things came together so well. As you read in the other thread I went the route of using velvet on the ceiling. This was certainly a lot more work than had I just used paint, so I am curious if the extra work and costs were worth it.

On the ceiling right above the screen, do you get ANY glimmer / shimmer at all when bright scenes are on the screen coming off that ceiling where the black paint is? That is why I went with velvet. The results are excellent, in that I have ZERO shimmer/glimmer whatsoever even on the brightest scenes.

The downside is that the material is sagging a bit off the boards/panels I created. Apparently the weight of the velvet is too much for the 3M 77 glue I used on the panels and is pulling away. As long as it all pulls away uniform, I could be ok. But right now some portions are sagging and some are not. This is disappointing considering how much effort I put into it and how perfectly it came out - up until the point where the glue did not go its job starting a few weeks after it was hanged.

Anyway - I'm wondering if it pays to just pull it down and go with paint instead (much easier), or whether I should research an alternative glue/method and rebuild the velvet panels. If there is ANY shimmer or reflection whatsoever on the ceiling above the screen with the black paint then I need to stick with the velvet. Thanks!
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post #5 of 38
1/7/07 at 8:46am
Mike,
Congrats on the room paint. It looks nice and I know it works better from experience in my own room. My whole front wall is flat black, and I have black velvet covering the screen frame. I still need to finish the rest of my ceiling in flat black, but the front 2.5-3' is flat black, and I can tell it made a significant improvement.

lovingdvd,
What are your panels constructed with? I recommend luan in your application, as it is stiff and relatively light, but is basically a low ply count plywood, so the veneer should hold the glue well. Also, did you wrap the panel or just glue to the surface? You could fasten the panels to the ceiling by either trimming in 1/4 round or using black velvet covered buttons/snaps, with one in the center and one at each corner, if the panel is square or nearly so.
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post #6 of 38
1/7/07 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1 View Post

Mike,
Congrats on the room paint. It looks nice and I know it works better from experience in my own room. My whole front wall is flat black, and I have black velvet covering the screen frame. I still need to finish the rest of my ceiling in flat black, but the front 2.5-3' is flat black, and I can tell it made a significant improvement.

lovingdvd,
What are your panels constructed with? I recommend luan in your application, as it is stiff and relatively light, but is basically a low ply count plywood, so the veneer should hold the glue well. Also, did you wrap the panel or just glue to the surface? You could fasten the panels to the ceiling by either trimming in 1/4 round or using black velvet covered buttons/snaps, with one in the center and one at each corner, if the panel is square or nearly so.

I looked into Luan but it was much heavier than I wanted (even though it is relatively very light). I made the panels using a very ridged foam board. I sprayed the foam board with 3M 77 and placed the velvet on the panels, wrapping the velvet around the edges and stapling it on the back side. I then used tiny brats with a nail gun to fasten to the ceiling. I came out PERFECT - absolutely beautiful and exactly as designed.

But the challenge is that the velvet has a backing which is very vinyl/plastic-y/shiny and does not adhere well (with hindsight) to the foam board. So what's happened is that over the course of a few weeks the velvet is pulling away from the board. It still is hanging ok because it is stapled in the back and cannot pull off. And its only droops by about 1".

As the rest of the glue comes off and all the drooping is uniform I think it may look ok and I'll leave it at that. But it does bother me that I planned the project so percisely and it came out exactly like I wanted, only to have the glue fail (after assurance from 3M tech support that it would work fine before I got started).

If I redo the panels, the trick will be finding a different type of glue that will hold. There do not seem to be any other options with this design other than glue, because I do not want to see any tacks or staples on the velvet (even if painted) because they will stick out like a sore thumb when light reflects off of there.

Thoughts?
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post #7 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:04pm
I don't think you will see the staples, becuse they will be so far deep in the fabric. Did you try it?
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post #8 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Nice
Are those blackout window blinds, and if so, is the black fabric on the outside? If so you might want to reverse them. If not, you might consider replacing them with black fabric versions.

I thought about it, but they are fabric and are bellows type, so any light that hits them would not be reflected back to the screen. Neverthelss, I am looking for perfection
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post #9 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank456 View Post

I like the concept and the wall colour as well. Might apply some of your ideas for my theater area which contains a ruby.

Etruscan Red - Sherman_Williams
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post #10 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I don't think you will see the staples, becuse they will be so far deep in the fabric. Did you try it?

Yes, unfortunately you can see them because it is a rather short pile material.
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post #11 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:43pm
I think that if you take a marker, and black out the staples, the tiny amout of light that would reflect off of that small of a black surface area, would be a acceptable trade off for having the fabric tight to the surface.
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post #12 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I think that if you take a marker, and black out the staples, the tiny amout of light that would reflect off of that small of a black surface area, would be a acceptable trade off for having the fabric tight to the surface.

Been there, done that - unfortunately you still can see the sheen. Keep in mind that this velvet is black as black can be and reflects no light - so a small materlic black piece gives off a shine. Even so stapling is not an option because the material would sag between staples.
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post #13 of 38
1/7/07 at 12:55pm
OK, sorry I couldn't be more help. I bought some of that Velvet by the way, and am thinking of replacing my felt with it. I am lucky, that I have a retractible screen soffit that sticks out a foot or so, and I am able to wrap the material around the front face that drops down to access the housing, and staple it inside and close the door. It snugs up really nicely.
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post #14 of 38
1/7/07 at 2:56pm
Lovingdvd,

Use 3M #90 glue and spray both the material and the boards let it set approx 30 to 40 sec. and then put the two pieces together and they will stay work in a 2 foot by 2 foot area and it should work fine. This is what I just did to my ceiling with black carpet and I just got through doing a 18' X 18' ceiling area of my theater and once it sticks it will take the backing off if you try to pull it off. I got my glue in Lowes in the paint department. I hope this helps.

Richard
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post #15 of 38
1/7/07 at 3:19pm
I did mine by installing a suspended ceiling and using 24" X 48" acoustic suspension tiles. I glued the velvet using 3M 77 glue and after 3 years have yet to have even one place where the material sags. The material I used had no "backing" of any kind and at first I was afraid that the heavy coating of glue I used on the tiles would soak through the material, but my fears were unfounded. I also carpeted all of my walls with a fairly thick dark green commercial carpet and an even thicker dark green carpet on the concrete floor. Throw in about a dozen matching color sound absorbtion panels (home made to very exacting standards) and a couple of bass traps and you end up with a room that is optimized for both video and audio...
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post #16 of 38
1/7/07 at 3:29pm
Soooo, your saying the new paint job is a better upgrade to your theater than your upgrade to the Qualia from the Sanyo?
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post #17 of 38
1/7/07 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I looked into Luan but it was much heavier than I wanted (even though it is relatively very light). I made the panels using a very ridged foam board. I sprayed the foam board with 3M 77 and placed the velvet on the panels, wrapping the velvet around the edges and stapling it on the back side. I then used tiny brats with a nail gun to fasten to the ceiling. I came out PERFECT - absolutely beautiful and exactly as designed.

But the challenge is that the velvet has a backing which is very vinyl/plastic-y/shiny and does not adhere well (with hindsight) to the foam board. So what's happened is that over the course of a few weeks the velvet is pulling away from the board. It still is hanging ok because it is stapled in the back and cannot pull off. And its only droops by about 1".

As the rest of the glue comes off and all the drooping is uniform I think it may look ok and I'll leave it at that. But it does bother me that I planned the project so percisely and it came out exactly like I wanted, only to have the glue fail (after assurance from 3M tech support that it would work fine before I got started).

If I redo the panels, the trick will be finding a different type of glue that will hold. There do not seem to be any other options with this design other than glue, because I do not want to see any tacks or staples on the velvet (even if painted) because they will stick out like a sore thumb when light reflects off of there.

Thoughts?

I understand about the material more now, as it has a slippery backing. I was thinking it was like the stuff I have seen with a woven backing, which would stick fairly well. Did you see the stuff in the other thread on this topic that was posted referring to adhesive backed velvet? Here is a link to the site that sells it. Put in 88015K33 in the search engine. I bet it would work for you. I am thinking about trying it on my door, since I could get it to conform to the panels pretty well if I am careful, I think.

I am personally going to go the route of acoustically transparent black cloth as I am planning to install diffusors on my ceiling to help with the acoustics. I know it will be less than absolute black, but will be very good, and will allow optimization of both audio and video. My room is going to be called the Ironside Cinema after the old warships in the Civil War. I am doing the CAD and conceptual 3-D modeling right now for it, and intend it to be a fantasy interpretation of the inside of the battle ship. The screen will be sort of a viewing window, like the bridge of the Enterprise or the ship from 20k Leagues Under the Sea. I will also probably need to use FabricTrak or something similar to have the fabric conform to some of the complex shapes I foresee. I am starting the project as soon as I get the drawings finished, so hopefully this month!
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post #18 of 38
1/7/07 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1 View Post

I understand about the material more now, as it has a slippery backing. I was thinking it was like the stuff I have seen with a woven backing, which would stick fairly well.

Yes, exactly. The backing is not fabric material of any kind - its more of a very shiny flexible plastic of sorts.

[qoute]
Did you see the stuff in the other thread on this topic that was posted referring to adhesive backed velvet?
[/quote]

Yes I had seen it, but my thought was that I wouldn't want to put that directly onto the ceiling in case later I want to do something else. However I don't know why it didn't dawn on me to just put that onto the panels instead of directly onto the ceiling... I'll need to look into that.

Quote:


I am personally going to go the route of acoustically transparent black cloth as I am planning to install diffusors on my ceiling to help with the acoustics. I know it will be less than absolute black, but will be very good, and will allow optimization of both audio and video. My room is going to be called the Ironside Cinema after the old warships in the Civil War. I am doing the CAD and conceptual 3-D modeling right now for it, and intend it to be a fantasy interpretation of the inside of the battle ship. The screen will be sort of a viewing window, like the bridge of the Enterprise or the ship from 20k Leagues Under the Sea. I will also probably need to use FabricTrak or something similar to have the fabric conform to some of the complex shapes I foresee. I am starting the project as soon as I get the drawings finished, so hopefully this month!

[/quote]

Sounds like a great project - keep us posted on how it goes!
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post #19 of 38
1/7/07 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I did mine by installing a suspended ceiling and using 24" X 48" acoustic suspension tiles. I glued the velvet using 3M 77 glue and after 3 years have yet to have even one place where the material sags. The material I used had no "backing" of any kind and at first I was afraid that the heavy coating of glue I used on the tiles would soak through the material, but my fears were unfounded. I also carpeted all of my walls with a fairly thick dark green commercial carpet and an even thicker dark green carpet on the concrete floor. Throw in about a dozen matching color sound absorbtion panels (home made to very exacting standards) and a couple of bass traps and you end up with a room that is optimized for both video and audio...

Thanks for the tip Bob. Yes it definitely sounds like our velvets are quite different. Sounds like yours is the same fabric all the way through (front and back) where mine has this backing.

Can you tell me more specifically about your velvet - what its called and where you got it?

Also is it totally jet, deep deep black with no sheen or shimmer whatsoever. The material I used is perfect in this regard. It is the blackest thing I've seen to date. If I hold it next to any material or black object, the velvet makes the other material/object look gray in comparison. Also is it a fairly flush velvet with a short pile or how would you describe it? Thanks!
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post #20 of 38
1/7/07 at 5:56pm
J.Mike - didn't see your response to my questions earlier in this thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9383847 so wanted to make sure you saw that post. Looking forward to hearing the details about any shimmer/reflectivity whatsoever from the paint. Thanks.
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post #21 of 38
1/7/07 at 7:06pm
Quote:


Can you tell me more specifically about your velvet - what its called and where you got it?

Ric, it was just some cheap velvet (rayon, I think) I picked up at Walmart for about $4/yard. The surface is very regular and flush (Walmart has several variations), jet black and does have a sheen to it (ALL velvet has a sheen - if it doesn't have a sheen it is called "velour"), but it absorbs light perfectly because of the short, soft nap (velour is a stiffer material and its nap is shorter and less movable). Remember that velvet is a finish, not a fabric, so velvet can be made of various different materials such as rayon, silk, nylon, etc.
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post #22 of 38
1/7/07 at 7:32pm
Boy I know that Qualia must really heat up that room, I know it did when I had the ruby and that only had a 400w bulb and the Qualia's bulb is about double that wattage
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post #23 of 38
1/7/07 at 8:32pm
Thanks mike. That qualia not only is expensive, it 'looks' expensive.
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post #24 of 38
1/8/07 at 6:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

On the ceiling right above the screen, do you get ANY glimmer / shimmer at all when bright scenes are on the screen coming off that ceiling where the black paint is? That is why I went with velvet. The results are excellent, in that I have ZERO shimmer/glimmer whatsoever even on the brightest scenes.

Yes, I can see an area that 'glimmers' with bright scenes. I now realize why this doesn't matter. I have the Da-Lite gray matte screen, and it's less sensitive to reflections than the FH with its reflective surface. Actually, it reminds me of the glimmer seen at a movie house. Since the 004 is a light cannon compared to most other FP, I have far more lattitude in stopping down the iris, even with the gray screen.

PS - my room is able to absorb the heat from the 004. I never notice it.
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post #25 of 38
1/8/07 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Ric, it was just some cheap velvet (rayon, I think) I picked up at Walmart for about $4/yard. The surface is very regular and flush (Walmart has several variations), jet black and does have a sheen to it (ALL velvet has a sheen - if it doesn't have a sheen it is called "velour"), but it absorbs light perfectly because of the short, soft nap (velour is a stiffer material and its nap is shorter and less movable). Remember that velvet is a finish, not a fabric, so velvet can be made of various different materials such as rayon, silk, nylon, etc.

Thanks Bob. I'll head over to Walmart when I have a chance and bring a swatch of my current material to see how they compare.

Just to confirm, the material you got has no backing or "correct side" to use right? Is there a particular product code / SKU I can use to make sure I'm looking at the same material you used? Thanks.
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post #26 of 38
1/8/07 at 10:21am
Quote:


Just to confirm, the material you got has no backing or "correct side" to use right? Is there a particular product code / SKU I can use to make sure I'm looking at the same material you used? Thanks.

Ric, there is always a "correct" side to velvet, but most velvet does not have any kind of added backing - just the woven fabric. Sorry, but I don't have any product code or SKU as I bought this about 3 years ago. If I get a chance I'll drop by my local Walmart and see if they still have the same stuff there.
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post #27 of 38
1/8/07 at 10:53pm
Hey guys.
Hope you don't mind me chiming in....
The fabric that Dan suggested from McMaster-Carr also comes in non-adhesive.
Plus if you're looking for a really black velvet, SandManX's thread in the HT Construction forum has info on Fidelio Black Velvet.
It's been months since I've looked at that thread, but I remember the comparisons he did and that Fidelio stuff was truly a black hole MUCH blacker than GOM 701 or the fabric put on screen frames.
HTH
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post #28 of 38
1/9/07 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Hey guys.
Hope you don't mind me chiming in....
The fabric that Dan suggested from McMaster-Carr also comes in non-adhesive.
Plus if you're looking for a really black velvet, SandManX's thread in the HT Construction forum has info on Fidelio Black Velvet.
It's been months since I've looked at that thread, but I remember the comparisons he did and that Fidelio stuff was truly a black hole MUCH blacker than GOM 701 or the fabric put on screen frames.
HTH

I'm going to research it some more, but just a heads up that I believe the Fidelo velvet is a different brand name for the same stuff I used (Madonna velvet) - in which case it will have this vinyl-like backing (which makes it unsuitable for gluing from my experience).

I called the Walmart nearest me and they currently do not have any velvet, so I'm going to keep looking around and maybe check into the adhesive backed velvet.
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post #29 of 38
1/9/07 at 7:03am
I have used black GOM 701 fabric to cover panels above my screen and find it does not absorb the balck very well. I plan on replacing it with something and velvet seems to be the logical choice. Other than flat black, what colors are effective at enhancing contrast that might get the wife approval? Currently my theatre colors are black GOM on sides (half wall) and front (front wall), a very deep Ralph Lauren blue on upper half of sides walls, and a taupe on the soffits and ceiling. I also have 8 front, back and side columns that are finished in medium oak. Carpet is medium-dark blue and theatre sofa is dark blue leather. I would like to change the taupe to something else to enhance the contrast, even though the taupe gets the most compliments. I wanted black from the get-go but my wife totally vetoed it. Suggestions? (other than a new wife )
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post #30 of 38
1/9/07 at 7:55am
double eagle velvet from hancock fabrics. recommended by missisippiman.

used for the screen border. black hole like. also draped over the black leather berk 088 just to see it, eat up light. will be using it for video sound panals for the front side/walls.
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