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8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 5  

post #121 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

i will never post here again - you guys are unappreciative

there are only a few closed minded people in here, please do not pay any attention to them, and please spill more beans if you have them
post #122 of 5892
A $20,000 Aviamo versus a $3500 63PFP7422D, seems to me like Fijitsu, Pioneer and Panasonic are about to be one-upped by the competition.
post #123 of 5892
Actually I really did think that was going to be the case with the last movie I saw at a theater, surprisingly, while I did find the black level to be, obviously, not as good as CRT it did not envelop the detail within the black at all like the plasma does. I mean, like I said, I know I can raise the gamma to push more of the material above the precharge threshold and I can raise the brightness to a level where everything is visible it is just that at that point the picture is very washed out looking, I usually have to compensate by almost maxing out the color; which still does not give the "richness" back that raising the gamma takes away.

I can definitely understand how many people would not find it all that big of a deal. There are many times that I find myself thinking that the plasma looks very good, maybe better than CRT during brighter scenes, that and the fact that this 42" Panasonic weighs under 70lbs whereas 34" CRT's push 160lbs (or near 200lbs for Trinitrons). I guess I have a tendency to be really obsessive about these little things, I grew up with CRT's and my first HDTV was a CRT which was kind of a spoiler, when I got the plasma I think that I was expecting too much from what everyone said about Panasonic's black levels being so close to CRT's when in fact while very good, are not really all that close to CRT's. I really wish that I could get over this black level issue because every other aspect of plasma technology is perfect.
post #124 of 5892
While I suppose I might be better off starting another thread for this, does anyone know if there any way of changing the gamma setting on my Panasonic TH-42PX6U Plasma while in TV mode. For some reason when in TV mode the "Black Level" (or gamma) is unselectable and stuck on dark, this is sometimes way too dark for some shows (I do not like running my brightness at 10-20).
post #125 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 View Post

any way of changing the gamma setting on my Panasonic TH-42PX6U Plasma while in TV mode

Nope, from Panasonic:

"Select Dark or Light. Valid only for external input signals. (Dark/Light)"

external input signals (a.k.a. cable box)
post #126 of 5892
So, basically the new Pioneer will have CRT-esque contrast? And LOL. There's been like 50 mentions of CRTs in this thread so far

I wish I could wait, but I really can't, and the pricing isn't going to be great on these at first, by the sound of it.
post #127 of 5892
Thats what I've been trying to get out of everyone here without any luck, do we finally have a plasma that beats CRT once and for all. Even to our insider, some help you are! hehe

I also think Fujitsu is going to have to rethink its plan about its $20,000 1080p plasma too, now that the SED killer is here.
post #128 of 5892
post #129 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

a friend of mine at Pioneer told me that Pioneer is totally getting out of the low-medium end electronics - all Pioneer will be high end only and priced accordingly - so - be prepared to pay a hefty price for these new Plasmas - I told my friend that i wanted 2 of these new ones - a 50" (for the bedroom) and a 60" (for the family room) - he said delivery would be in Aug. Pricing unknown at this time. Also - he told me that the only deals from Pioneer in the future will be on refurbished electronics - but - he said - they are rebuilt to brand new standards.


I wanted to comment on this thread since have been getting allot of calls about this from my friends on here. We had our people meet Pioneer at CES. There is no talk what so ever that the current Plasmas are going away soon. There is talks that the 8th generation will come out EVENTUALLY. Meanwhile they have amazing units out there. Also heard its not even a Plasma that is coming out. I just think we could be always chasing new technology while missing on the ones out there right now.
post #130 of 5892
I was in a high-end A/V dealer today and was told that Pioneer Elite will no longer be making a 42", they will start at 50". Has anyone heard this? ikeb???

The main thing that is keeping me away from plasma technology is the image retention/burn-in issue. Hopefully it will be resolved in the future.

BTW, I'm new here but have been lurking for some time. This is a great forum.
post #131 of 5892
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7....html?tag=blog

"when I asked why the pans in some demo shots from Shakespeare in Love, for example, looked smoother and more free of judder than I'd seen on previous Pioneer plasmas, the rep mentioned that the company's new plasmas used a 60Hz refresh rate"

"We've seen more judder in the 72Hz PRO-FHD1 than in comparable 60Hz plasmas when watching standard 1080i/60 and 1080p/30 sources, but we've heard that 1080p/24 sources (available primarily from Pioneer's own BDP-HD1 and the Sony BD-PS1 Blu-ray players) look very good on 72Hz displays. Regardless, the new technologies' use of a 60Hz refresh rate should help smooth out the judder we saw on the current 72Hz displays."

Maybe cnet is stupid enough to enable 72hz inverse telecine mode for 1080i60 mode thats actually 1080i60 and not just for 24 fps cinema material?

1) The Pro-FHD1 is NOT a 72hz display, it's 60 hz and 72 hz
2) This new SED killer is going to be 60 hz only?

Then what is all this about "everything is 24fps capable"? A 60hz only set is NOT 24fps capable, that would be using a frame rate conversion and thus not 24 fps. Also, "Shakespeare in Love" is not a 1080i60 nor 1080p30 source, but a 24 fps cinema source, so what are they talking about being smoother with 1080i60 and 1080p30 sources?

According to:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...483263,00.html

posted earlier. #5 states: "Part 5: 1080p 24fps Delivers Cinematic Quality"
It's not possible to not have judder with a 60 hz input display when the source is 24 fps cinema material. Another point, why would Pioneer go to so much trouble to advertise to being one of the only 24p capable tv sets, have one of the only 24p capable HD format disc players, then come out with their SED killer tv and only have 60 hz input capability? Makes no sense.

My guess is the "SED killer" will use atleast 72hz, possibly 120hz. Everyone else think cnet are just morons, should go home and not misinform potential HDTV users? If the new display looks smoother, that must mean it probably most likely is using 120hz output for everything?
post #132 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 View Post

Actually I really did think that was going to be the case with the last movie I saw at a theater, surprisingly, while I did find the black level to be, obviously, not as good as CRT it did not envelop the detail within the black at all like the plasma does. I mean, like I said, I know I can raise the gamma to push more of the material above the precharge threshold and I can raise the brightness to a level where everything is visible it is just that at that point the picture is very washed out looking, I usually have to compensate by almost maxing out the color; which still does not give the "richness" back that raising the gamma takes away.

I can definitely understand how many people would not find it all that big of a deal. There are many times that I find myself thinking that the plasma looks very good, maybe better than CRT during brighter scenes, that and the fact that this 42" Panasonic weighs under 70lbs whereas 34" CRT's push 160lbs (or near 200lbs for Trinitrons). I guess I have a tendency to be really obsessive about these little things, I grew up with CRT's and my first HDTV was a CRT which was kind of a spoiler, when I got the plasma I think that I was expecting too much from what everyone said about Panasonic's black levels being so close to CRT's when in fact while very good, are not really all that close to CRT's. I really wish that I could get over this black level issue because every other aspect of plasma technology is perfect.

I totally understand where you are coming from. And if black levels are YOUR thing, then CRT is pretty much the only way to go.

In fact, at a good theater, the absolute black level is better than any plasma out there at the moment. (Not direct view CRT, but very good.) But once light hits, once again, Plasmas look much better due to the fact that blacks don't rise.

Watching Apocalypto in theaters, I never got the sense of 'graying', as in a gray cloud comes over the picture in the darkest scenes. Even the best Plasmas can't solve this in the complete dark at the moment.

Make that every digital display!

It's really give and take at the moment and that sucks for sure. But in terms of size, sharpness, clarity, and actual shadow detail (when black level is set at a correct area, not to crush), then as you said Plasmas are pretty pretty pretty.

I use my TV for more than just home theater too. In the complete dark they're still not the 'it' in performance. But in a dim room, or even a moderately bright room they're the bee's knees.

I can't go back to CRT. No matter how black black gets.
post #133 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7....html?tag=blog

"when I asked why the pans in some demo shots from Shakespeare in Love, for example, looked smoother and more free of judder than I'd seen on previous Pioneer plasmas, the rep mentioned that the company's new plasmas used a 60Hz refresh rate"

"We've seen more judder in the 72Hz PRO-FHD1 than in comparable 60Hz plasmas when watching standard 1080i/60 and 1080p/30 sources, but we've heard that 1080p/24 sources (available primarily from Pioneer's own BDP-HD1 and the Sony BD-PS1 Blu-ray players) look very good on 72Hz displays. Regardless, the new technologies' use of a 60Hz refresh rate should help smooth out the judder we saw on the current 72Hz displays."

Maybe cnet is stupid enough to enable 72hz inverse telecine mode for 1080i60 mode thats actually 1080i60 and not just for 24 fps cinema material?

1) The Pro-FHD1 is NOT a 72hz display, it's 60 hz and 72 hz
2) This new SED killer is going to be 60 hz only?

Then what is all this about "everything is 24fps capable"? A 60hz only set is NOT 24fps capable, that would be using a frame rate conversion and thus not 24 fps. Also, "Shakespeare in Love" is not a 1080i60 nor 1080p30 source, but a 24 fps cinema source, so what are they talking about being smoother with 1080i60 and 1080p30 sources?

According to:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...483263,00.html

posted earlier. #5 states: "Part 5: 1080p 24fps Delivers Cinematic Quality"
It's not possible to not have judder with a 60 hz input display when the source is 24 fps cinema material. Another point, why would Pioneer go to so much trouble to advertise to being one of the only 24p capable tv sets, have one of the only 24p capable HD format disc players, then come out with their SED killer tv and only have 60 hz input capability? Makes no sense.

My guess is the "SED killer" will use atleast 72hz, possibly 120hz. Everyone else think cnet are just morons, should go home and not misinform potential HDTV users? If the new display looks smoother, that must mean it probably most likely is using 120hz output for everything?

What else is ironic is, that when I use ADV, I actually notice more smooth motion... maybe not pans, but the motion is much smoother. With standard the motion seems 'clippy' now... something I notice on pretty much any TV now a days.

72hz rocks... beyond the few stability issues that pop up.
post #134 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I thought I wouldn't have to get into why but, you can like the result and not how it gets it or the quality of that result. Sure CRT does show the shadows and has a superb shadow detail. It doesn't however have a great contrast ratio. A CRT never quite become pitch black, it's able to have a huge dynamic contrast ratio of over 30,0000:1 but a lousy 800:1 CR. CRT has a lousy on/off CR compared to LCD. !

You have got your definitions all mixed up. There are basically 3 types of contrast:
- On-Off contrast: Full White versus full Black. CRT has by far the highest, up to 100000:1 and more depending on calibration. LCD is poor with typically some hundred to 1 up to > 1000:1. Easily 10 to 100 times less than CRT!
- ANSI contrast: Checkerboard white versus checkeboard black. CRT is rather low here with typically 100:1 or so. LCD can be quite some higher. At least some hundred : 1.
-Intrascene contrast for natural images (not checkerboards, not full black or white): Is a mixture of ANSI and On-Off depending on content. CRTs will show anything from ANSI to several 1000 to 1 and more depending on content. The lower the APL of the content the higher the contrast from CRT, easily beating LCD for not bright stuff. No display is best for all kinds of images. Concerning contrast with images as seen in film CRT is the technology to beat. No other is on the market which is better. Concerning other image aspects other technologies can be better.

Quote:


CRT is bad because:
1) It's fuzzy and soft, not quite as sharp

Not as sharp as DLP or LCD. Fuzzy? Good CRT is sharp, smooth and film like, not fuzzy.
Quote:


2) I get headaches from the refresh cycle, bad flicker!

Depends on HZ. Can be run at 72 HZ or 120 to eliminate flicker.
Quote:


3) convergence, no CRT is 100% perfect (plasma is 100% perfect)

Convergence is not optimal. Agreed. Needs not be bad, though.
Quote:


4) banding issues

CRT has no banding issues related to the CRT principle. On the contrary. To be sure if there is banding in a source the high end CRT is the way to tell since it has no bith depth issues as an analogue display unlike all digital displays where display issues might cause the banding (this assumes the CRT uses no bad quality digital processing inside which can add banding, of course, in the digital domain).
Quote:


5) floating blacks, dc restoration issues

High end CRT does not have it.
Quote:


6) can't hang it on the wall

No image quality argument.
Quote:


7) not cool, impressing the Jones's is very important!

Educated people are impressed by image quality, not meaningless form factors. :-)
Quote:


8) You just don't get the "punch" of a plasma

Depends on image content. Low APL material has more punch on CRT than any digital displays.
Quote:


9) Pixels bleed, if you set the brightness too high you never bloom on plasma

It's not dummy safe. You are supposed to calibrate it properly, like other technologies. Dumb argument.
Quote:


10) barrel distortion, which is why a CRT will overscan

Not a big issue with high end CRT.
Quote:


11) can't get 1:1 1080p

Since it has no pixels the 1:1 is meaningless. If you mean you don't get the same MTF as on LCD or DLP you are right. It will be softer.
Quote:


12) size limited. Largest CRT HDTV is the 34" Sony. Way too small!

Right. You can use a CRT projector if image size is so important.
No technology has it all. And quality within the same technology varies greatly from cheap product to high end product. The price performance ratio of CRT monitors is very good if you can live with some of the restrictions (such as image size).
post #135 of 5892
Anyone see this? Panny is adding yet another Plasma fab... Investing quite a lot of money. In light of what we -think- we know, that this new plasma tech is a Panny/Pioneer joint technology and that both will be able to build and sell - this could very well be the plant where these will be made for Panny. Not set to come online though until 2009...


http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36842
post #136 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUronl View Post

Anyone see this? Panny is adding yet another Plasma fab... Investing quite a lot of money. In light of what we -think- we know, that this new plasma tech is a Panny/Pioneer joint technology and that both will be able to build and sell - this could very well be the plant where these will be made for Panny. Not set to come online though until 2009...


http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36842

Do we really know that there is an alliance and patent sharing between Panasonic and Pioneer? I beginning to doubt that.

- Rich
post #137 of 5892
Who knows - perhaps the person or people who originally stated that this was a jointly discovered advance can confirm?


Although, it's interesting to note Matsushita is partnering with Toray Industries according to the Panasonic press release. Looks like Toray is a big polymer film and materials company who seems to be a key part of Panasonic's PDP substrate development. They also manufacture a filter film for LCDs - maybe they applied the same treatment to some plasmas? This would align with the speculation that this "advance" is some sort of polymer infused filter... or, this could be telling us nothing - just providing the name of the PDP substrate co-developer.


http://www.toray.com/products/ele/html/ele_a004.html
post #138 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Do we really know that there is an alliance and patent sharing between Panasonic and Pioneer? I beginning to doubt that.

- Rich

Never seen this mentioned anywhere except AVS Forum.
post #139 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUronl View Post

Anyone see this? Panny is adding yet another Plasma fab... Investing quite a lot of money. In light of what we -think- we know, that this new plasma tech is a Panny/Pioneer joint technology and that both will be able to build and sell - this could very well be the plant where these will be made for Panny. Not set to come online though until 2009...


http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36842


More info can be found here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=784457
post #140 of 5892
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUronl View Post

Who knows - perhaps the person or people who originally stated that this was a jointly discovered advance can confirm?

This was already discussed earlier in this thread. Short form: The patent sharing was just a wild rumor. Actually right now I believe it was false.
post #141 of 5892
"Interesting" thread. I think it's time for me to chime in.

First, patent sharing...
I cannot confirm or deny that Pioneer and Matsushita are not "evaluating" each other's key plasma technology features. However I can say that Matsushita can reproduce the same "reinvented" plasma panel right now.....if they wanted

They will not implement it right now because it goes against their current business model. Panasonic basically wants every household the be able to afford their plasma displays. They are well on their way in accomplishing that feat with their new plant and projected plasma production outputs. This new panel tech requires a complete overhaul of their plasma lines. So you will not see this tech in the PZ700 or PX75/77 series. They will roll out this tech in either Japan this November or the USA next spring.....all 1080p models.

Now, prices for Pioneer's 8th gen plasmas....
Don't look for their panels to be priced anywhere near what you will be able to purchase a Panasonic. Samsung, Vizo, Phillips, etc. plasma this summer. Pioneer clearly wants these new panel's price to equal the PQ they will have. If you want to get a feel on how much these panels will cost, think about the Sony XBR LCDs compared to their Samsung and Sharp counterparts. Much higher in price but the PQ says it all (well to some).

ikeb,
Please do not stop posting here due the the vultures. I can personally confirm most of what you have posted as being valid.

RomanInvision,
I not sure what you meant by the 8th gen Pioneers will not be plasmas. They are and will replace the current 7th gen plasmas around the same time frame as last year's 7th generation introduction.

Flavors and tech of the 8th gen Pioneers...
Sizes include 42" 1024x768p, 50" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p, 60" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p (note: the 768p 60" panel may get canceled). All panels will have HDMI 1.3 ports. Number of ports have not be finalized, however, there will be at least 3 (I'm betting on 4). The "Pure" line of Pioneers are suppose to get the Home Media Gallery that is currently offered on the 7th gen Elites. The Elite's may get an auto calibration feature ( classify this as pure speculation because Pioneer may hold off on this feature until next year).

I think that's enough for now.
post #142 of 5892
D-Nice, are these new 50" & 60" 1080p sets going to be released as 'Elite' Pioneers or the standard line? Thanks
post #143 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

"Interesting" thread. I think it's time for me to chime in.

First, patent sharing...
I cannot confirm or deny that Pioneer and Matsushita are not "evaluating" each other's key plasma technology features. However I can say that Matsushita can reproduce the same "reinvented" plasma panel right now.....if they wanted

They will not implement it right now because it goes against their current business model. Panasonic basically wants every household the be able to afford their plasma displays. They are well on their way in accomplishing that feat with their new plant and projected plasma production outputs. This new panel tech requires a complete overhaul of their plasma lines. So you will not see this tech in the PZ700 or PX75/77 series. They will roll out this tech in either Japan this November or the USA next spring.....all 1080p models.

Now, prices for Pioneer's 8th gen plasmas....
Don't look for their panels to be priced anywhere near what you will be able to purchase a Panasonic. Samsung, Vizo, Phillips, etc. plasma this summer. Pioneer clearly wants these new panel's price to equal the PQ they will have. If you want to get a feel on how much these panels will cost, think about the Sony XBR LCDs compared to their Samsung and Sharp counterparts. Much higher in price but the PQ says it all (well to some).

ikeb,
Please do not stop posting here due the the vultures. I can personally confirm most of what you have posted as being valid.

RomanInvision,
I not sure what you meant by the 8th gen Pioneers will not be plasmas. They are and will replace the current 7th gen plasmas around the same time frame as last year's 7th generation introduction.

Flavors and tech of the 8th gen Pioneers...
Sizes include 42" 1024x768p, 50" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p, 60" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p (note: the 768p 60" panel may get canceled). All panels will have HDMI 1.3 ports. Number of ports have not be finalized, however, there will be at least 3 (I'm betting on 4). The "Pure" line of Pioneers are suppose to get the Home Media Gallery that is currently offered on the 7th gen Elites. The Elite's may get an auto calibration feature ( classify this as pure speculation because Pioneer may hold off on this feature until next year).

I think that's enough for now.

Leave it to D-Nice to show us the way. Thank you, I have followed your info in the 7th generation thread and I am looking foward to any information you will have on the 8th generation. Anyone that has been reading the Pioneer forum will know that D-Nice is usually right on. So now my problem is do I go buy the 7th generation 5070 or wait until the 8th generation? D-nice do you think the picture quality will be worth the wait? I have heard the improvements may not be on the 50 inch models as well for 2007? Thanks again for your post.
post #144 of 5892
I find that I am coming down with a serious case of upgraditus.
post #145 of 5892
Thanks D-Nice.

This is interesting information. Sounds like I am in for about 1.5 years with my current plasma, unless I am willing to have a 6 inch downgrade

Any word on a plasma larger than 60 inches from Pioneer?

- Rich
post #146 of 5892
I am so eager to get someone's review of what the new Pioneer tech looks like. Relative to the latest Panasonic's how much better are the blacks? Also, how does it compare to CRT? I guess what I have realized lately is that it is not only the on/off black level that is important but also the richness in color that comes from being able to lower your brightness very far while still being able to make out shadow detail and whatnot (it is weird it is almost like brightness also influences the overall gamma response). Anyway, anyone that has seen the new Pioneers please post your opinions.
post #147 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Flavors and tech of the 8th gen Pioneers...
Sizes include 42" 1024x768p, 50" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p, 60" 1365x768p and 1920x1080p (note: the 768p 60" panel may get canceled). All panels will have HDMI 1.3 ports. Number of ports have not be finalized, however, there will be at least 3 (I'm betting on 4). The "Pure" line of Pioneers are suppose to get the Home Media Gallery that is currently offered on the 7th gen Elites. The Elite's may get an auto calibration feature ( classify this as pure speculation because Pioneer may hold off on this feature until next year).

I think that's enough for now.

Thanks for the info D-Nice.

Can you confirm if these 8th Gen HDMI 1.3 plasma displays have:

1) 120Hz 5/5 for 1080P/24
2) Support for Deep Colour?
3) How many bits? a)30bits(10X3) b)36bits(12x3) c)48bits(16X3)

Thanks
post #148 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Thanks D-Nice.

This is interesting information. Sounds like I am in for about 1.5 years with my current plasma, unless I am willing to have a 6 inch downgrade

Any word on a plasma larger than 60 inches from Pioneer?

- Rich

Who knows, Rich? Maybe Panasonic will introduce similar technology by then and you can swap out your current 65" for a 103".

-Steve
post #149 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Thanks D-Nice.

Any word on a plasma larger than 60 inches from Pioneer?

- Rich


The big question for me as well. Anything in the 65" to 70" range on the horizon?
post #150 of 5892
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Do we really know that there is an alliance and patent sharing between Panasonic and Pioneer? I beginning to doubt that.

- Rich

I wonder if what they got confused about is the Plasma Display Coalition that consists of the major players (Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic etc.) agreeing to promote and educate the consumer on the benefits of the plasma technology. it's not a sharing of information but just agreeing on the approach to educatethe consumer and also to shoot down the other technologies arguments against plasma.

http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/main.php
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