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8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 2  

post #31 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:09pm
This is the greatest news I've ever heard. I really hope its true. Plasmas are better than LCD in every way except price. The only reason I held off getting a plasma was 1:1 pixels, then 1:1 1080p came,but black levels and shadow detail, while being very good, still wasn't as good as CRT. I will never get a CRT btw, but CRT currently does have the best shadow detail and dynamic range. Plasma this past year has continually improved, while LCD is just getting cheaper and bigger, big deal. What good is cheaper and bigger if the quality isn't improved. LCD only cares about yields, prices, and sizes. Thats what I certainly don't want, so while LCD may for quite some time sell more, thats by no means an indicator that LCDs will continue to improve to the point they're sufficient to meeting all criterion of a videophile.

Great job Pioneer, please be telling the truth. If this plasma matches or beats CRTs for shadow detail and dynamic range, as Garth said, "Oh yes you will be mine".

I don't care what a single soul says, LCD is only good for PC, like: web surfing, chatting, and gaming using emulators with filters to minimize the deficiencies of LCD because its cheap. LCD is flawed by design, its backlit and no matter what you use to light it, be it LED, CCFL, etc, the light will never be pure, since its not generating its own light from each pixel unlike plasma. I was rooting for you LCD, but you never came through.

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post #32 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

This is the greatest news I've ever heard. I really hope its true. Plasmas are better than LCD in every way except price. The only reason I held off getting a plasma was 1:1 pixels, then 1:1 1080p came,but black levels and shadow detail, while being very good still wasn't as good as CRT. I will never get a CRT btw, but CRT currently does have the best shadow detail and dynamic range. Plasma this past year has continually improved, while LCD is just getting cheaper and bigger, big deal. What good is cheaper and bigger if the quality isn't improved. LCD only cares about yields, prices, and sizes. Thats what I certainly don't want, so while LCD may for quite some time sell more, thats by no means an indicator that LCDs will continue to improve to the point they're sufficient to meeting all criterion of a videophile.

Great job Pioneer, please be telling the truth. If this plasma matches or beats CRTs for shadow detail and dynamic range, as Garth said, "Oh yes you will be mine".

I don't care what a single soul says, LCD is only good for PC, like: web surfing, chatting, and gaming using emulators with filters to minimize the deficiencies of LCD because its cheap. LCD is flawed by design, its backlit and no matter what you use to light it, be it LED, CCFL, etc, the light will never be pure, since its not generating its own light from each pixel unlike plasma. I was rooting for you LCD, but you never came through.

I can't agree with everything that is said. LCD is still more expensive per square inch... and newer LCDs may surprise people in terms of home theater PQ.

And btw, it was Mike Myer's character "Wayne" that you quoted.
post #33 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Yes, I remember this patent sharing was discussed a while ago, but where does this info come from? Do we really know Panasonic and Pioneer are sharing this technology?

Not sure Rich, I guess I read the same thing you did and I'm not sure that was ever verified. If not, Pioneer will be way ahead on the plasma developmental curve. I might actually reduce the screen size I was hoping for in my next plasma from 65" to 60"! If the picture of this 60" 1080p panel (and we're assuming it IS 1080p) is as good as people say and what Pioneer promises, I'd be really really hard pressed to go with a 65" 1080p display that has much less pop and black levels. I may gladly sacrifice that 5" for a richer, deeper and contrastier 60" panel. We shall see.
post #34 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:45pm
1080p LCD for the same size plasma is much cheaper. Samsung sells the LNS5296D 52" 1080p LCD for a list price of "only" $4,999, Sony just overprices everything, so their XBR3 LCD prices are moot(in my opinion even Samsung overprices their LCDs too). The Pioneer Pro-FHD1 50" plasma lists for $8000 and the TH-50PF9UK 50" Panasonic 1080p plasma lists for $5,995.

Btw, it was Wayne? I haven't seen the movie since I was in jr high about 14 years ago!
post #35 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:56pm
I cannot even imagine how good these 8G Pios must look.....

I mean the I have seen a 5070 and a PRO 1140 in action and the PQ was like

This is very confident PR from Pioneer.....If it was somebody other than them (or fujitsu, NEC or perhaps Panasonic) I would be suspect.....but....coming from Pioneer, this gets me REALLY excited
post #36 of 5892
1/7/07 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

1080p LCD for the same size plasma is much cheaper. Samsung sells the LNS5296D 52" 1080p LCD for a list price of "only" $4,999, Sony just overprices everything, so their XBR3 LCD prices are moot(in my opinion even Samsung overprices their LCDs too). The Pioneer Pro-FHD1 50" plasma lists for $8000 and the TH-50PF9UK 50" Panasonic 1080p plasma lists for $5,995.

Btw, it was Wayne? I haven't seen the movie since I was in jr high about 14 years ago!

oh yes, pixel count wise... yes, LCDs manufacture 1080p much cheaper.

And yes it was Wayne
post #37 of 5892
1/7/07 at 7:03pm
The irony here is not lost, Pioneer moving substantially ahead of Panasonic with deeper blacks. Should be an interesting year when the Panny 58PZ700 model arrives at about the same time as the new Pio 60 , wont that be interesting if Pio really has turned the tables on Panasonic. Get ready for the hot summer 'dual'.
post #38 of 5892
1/7/07 at 7:09pm
This panel truly ought to look crazy-good! Can't wait to see it!

Egads the choices just keep getting tougher and tougher. I tell you, the pace was nothing like this when I shopped for my first plasma 5 years ago.
post #39 of 5892
1/7/07 at 7:12pm
Do you guys think these new panels will be on the $$-wise as the Pro-FHD1, or the 1140/5070, 940/4270 counterparts?
post #40 of 5892
1/7/07 at 7:12pm
wojtek, whats up my fellow Polish brother. I consider myself a discriminating Videophile and I can easily see the green trails. Im honestly surprised most people never notice them. It's so easy to see during hockey that to me it's funny that people complain about banding, dithering, rainbows, SSE, etc but nobody mentions the green trails (can be yellow on some plasmas) While the problem is not always noticable and not a huge problem, it can get bothersome if you play alot of games or watch fast moving sports with alot of camera pans. I currently have a Panny 50" 6u with green trails but I have learned to live with it because of the superior picture quality when compared to all the other tech out there. Im hoping the new Pio will somehow not have green trailing.
post #41 of 5892
1/7/07 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not sure Rich, I guess I read the same thing you did and I'm not sure that was ever verified. If not, Pioneer will be way ahead on the plasma developmental curve. I might actually reduce the screen size I was hoping for in my next plasma from 65" to 60"! If the picture of this 60" 1080p panel (and we're assuming it IS 1080p) is as good as people say and what Pioneer promises, I'd be really really hard pressed to go with a 65" 1080p display that has much less pop and black levels. I may gladly sacrifice that 5" for a richer, deeper and contrastier 60" panel. We shall see.

That's pretty much why I bought the Pioneer 1540HD instead of the Panny 65" 1080p (actually because of more accurate colors and more dark area detail, in addition to better black levels more adjustability, and networking capability).

It will be interesting to see how much of an improvement there will be in a dark setting. Sounds like one of the primary intents was to reduce the effect of ambient light on achieved contrast levels to combat the impression that LCD's are better in bright environments.
post #42 of 5892
1/7/07 at 9:02pm
wow, just when I was starting to regret not jumping on those end of the year Panny plasma deals...good things come for those with patience! (of course, by that logic, one will always keep waiting, given the pace of technological change). I guess I'll keep myself distracted by new projector and HD DVD developments until these new plasmas show up...
post #43 of 5892
1/8/07 at 12:54am
http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753475p1.html

Just another funny article. I love the article name and the unofficially dubbed "Plasma 2.0" part.

Pioneer laid a bomb. Now they have alot to live up to. If the hype is truly real, I think the horizon is looking pretty good. I do have a feeling these display will have a huge premium tag.

Totally reinventing the innards of your technology doesn't sound cheap at all.
post #44 of 5892
1/8/07 at 3:08am
These will be released Summer 2007 in the US. What what about UK/Europe? And will prices be same as current generation? surely they can't increase prices, so it'll be the same or slightly less than initial RRP?
post #45 of 5892
1/8/07 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not sure Rich, I guess I read the same thing you did and I'm not sure that was ever verified. If not, Pioneer will be way ahead on the plasma developmental curve. I might actually reduce the screen size I was hoping for in my next plasma from 65" to 60"! If the picture of this 60" 1080p panel (and we're assuming it IS 1080p) is as good as people say and what Pioneer promises, I'd be really really hard pressed to go with a 65" 1080p display that has much less pop and black levels. I may gladly sacrifice that 5" for a richer, deeper and contrastier 60" panel. We shall see.

I believe it was forum member RichB who claimed that Pio and Panny shared this technology.

It will be interesting to see if that is indeed true. If not, I think a 60" Pio will be my next display (depending on the price).

Hopefully they set the initial MSRP below $10K.
post #46 of 5892
1/8/07 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimV View Post

I believe it was forum member RichB who claimed that Pio and Panny shared this technology.

It will be interesting to see if that is indeed true. If not, I think a 60" Pio will be my next display (depending on the price).

Hopefully they set the initial MSRP below $10K.

Don;t blame me It was D-Nice.
Of course, I hope it is true.

I really do not know what is in store for us from Panasonic. They have a huge market share, so I think they are less likely to supply product details or proposed enhancements since it might slow sales of the current models.

- Rich
post #47 of 5892
1/8/07 at 12:33pm
I am also looking forward to seeing one of these 8G Pioneer plasmas, by summer I will be in the market for a 60"/65" 108p24/48/72/*120* - 60/*120* panel....... *120* being a dream com true.....
post #48 of 5892
1/8/07 at 12:38pm
Is Pio showing these at CES?
post #49 of 5892
1/8/07 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Don;t blame me It was D-Nice.
Of course, I hope it is true.

I really do not know what is in store for us from Panasonic. They have a huge market share, so I think they are less likely to supply product details or proposed enhancements since it might slow sales of the current models.

- Rich

That's right, it was D-Nice. Sorry about that.

Anyaway, Panasonic better have a response to this or I could see them losing market share.
post #50 of 5892
1/8/07 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Don;t blame me It was D-Nice.

Well, nobody actually claimed that Pioneer and Panasonic were sharing patents. It was a question I was posting in one thread. And then D-Nice replied with something like "that's the right question!!". In the context of the thread that could be interpreted like some kind of confirmation. But I think it has been blown out of proportion. Right now after these announcements by Pioneer and Panasonic it seems to me that they are not sharing patents and I think Pioneer will be noticably in front this time. Of course I'm only guessing here. But if Panasonic had a giant step up in black level to offer, I can't imagine that they wouldn't boast about it.

Honestly, I'm not at all sad about this. Panasonic has done VERY little in the previous few years to increase image quality IMHO. They could have done more. 4G Panasonic plasmas are not THAT much worse looking than 9G plasmas. Furthermore Panasonic has ignored the needs of us home cinema freaks by repeatedly dropping the ball in terms of HDMI input capabilities. E.g. we Europeans never had native rate support with 50Hz. And even their latest 1080p plasmas can't officially accept 1080p24, which is a total shame IMHO.

Pioneer on the other hand seems to be doing a giant step this year. The FHD1 is already seen by many as the best performing plasma available (maybe with the exception of the black level). And what is more: The FHD1 has *perfect* HDMI input capabilities and a 1:1 dot-by-dot mode. Taking the FHD1 and perfecting the black level alone should give us best in class performance. Now Pioneer claims to have done MORE than that. I'd say Pioneer has earned leadership and I'll gladly switch from Panasonic to Pioneer this summer, if there are no further surprises.
post #51 of 5892
1/8/07 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amheck View Post

Is Pio showing these at CES?

Yes, I think so.
post #52 of 5892
1/8/07 at 5:43pm
I agree with you Madshi. But I'm surprised we've heard no first-hand viewing reports of these new Pioneers.
post #53 of 5892
1/8/07 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

wojtek, whats up my fellow Polish brother. I consider myself a discriminating Videophile and I can easily see the green trails. Im honestly surprised most people never notice them. It's so easy to see during hockey that to me it's funny that people complain about banding, dithering, rainbows, SSE, etc but nobody mentions the green trails (can be yellow on some plasmas) While the problem is not always noticable and not a huge problem, it can get bothersome if you play alot of games or watch fast moving sports with alot of camera pans. I currently have a Panny 50" 6u with green trails but I have learned to live with it because of the superior picture quality when compared to all the other tech out there. Im hoping the new Pio will somehow not have green trailing.

I had a Toshiba (panny glass) 50hp95 plasma. The green trails were driving me nuts. I returned it for a pio 5071. Virtually no green trails at all. A great improvement. Hockey looks great.
post #54 of 5892
1/8/07 at 6:56pm
Just saw Pio 60'' 1080p prototype at CES. They compare it to their 60'' 720 current model. The new model looks very very impressive. I was going to upgrade my Pio 503cmx to something 1080P this month. Damn, i have to wait till summer now.
post #55 of 5892
1/8/07 at 7:40pm
yzkbug, did you see the Fujitsu Aviamos as well?
post #56 of 5892
1/8/07 at 11:36pm
I really, really liked this display.

It was dramatically contrastier than the existing Pioneer 6070. It was lovely to look at blacks that are within the universe of the black frames Pioneer uses.

If this is truly a more astounding picture than SED, then there will be no SED to get excited about. Why? Because, um, the demo just wasn't that exciting.

This was an unfinished prototype and so the final version might well be better, but honestly, it seemed like a really, really nice plasma. Is that damning with faint praise? Perhaps, but I'm not sure it was so much contrastier than my Panasonic PX600U. I mean it was I'm sure objectively better, but was it night and day? Well, unless someone sees the Pio vs Panny at Caesar's in the private suite -- I couldn't wrangle an invite yesterday tho I admittedly didn't try very hard -- all we can say is that Pioneer now has dramatically contrastier plasmas coming.

I would be less inclined than ever to buy a 6070 given it's pixel count and the likely arrival of this technology late in 2007. I would however be surprised to see Pioneer ship this new stuff "in summer" given that it is (a) not finished and (b) not yet blessed with things like final cosmetics and model numbers that usually are available well before a product is.

Of course, Pioneer is a less of a pre-announcer than most, so this whole thing is a bit out of character -- in a good way, by and large.

Things are looking up, to be sure and this is an exciting development. I'm just not sure how exciting.
post #57 of 5892
1/8/07 at 11:53pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks to yzkbug and rogo for the first impressions!

-------

Pioneer has some videos online now about the new plasma tech:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...483263,00.html

Basically they're saying:

(1) They reduced the black level by lowering the middle idle illuminating level of "black" pixel cells. So no new tricks like Black Crystal emission layer, but straight lowering of the "keep alive" level by 80%.

(2) Pioneer was using a film filter instead of glass filter for 2 generations now. This has cut down second level reflections. Now they claim that they've a new filter which cuts down any ambient light but doesn't block the colors from the plasma.

(3) They say they've developed a new video processing ASIC which includes things like MPEG noise reduction and that kind of stuff.
post #58 of 5892
1/8/07 at 11:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If this is truly a more astounding picture than SED, then there will be no SED to get excited about. Why? Because, um, the demo just wasn't that exciting.

It's too bad SED was no show at CES. I'd have loved to hear your opinion about it. My impression from Pioneer's information is that what they've improved is mainly black level and daylight performance. Based on that I'd say that SED should still be noticably better in things like fill rate, motion display, lack of digital artifacts etc...
post #59 of 5892
1/9/07 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post


(2) Pioneer was using a film filter instead of glass filter for 2 generations now. This has cut down second level reflections. Now they claim that they've a new filter which cuts down any ambient light but doesn't block the colors from the plasma.

I'm wondering if they're talking about using a polarizer or a neutral density filter ????
post #60 of 5892
1/9/07 at 12:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

... I'd say that SED should still be noticably better in things like fill rate, motion display, lack of digital artifacts etc...

Did I read the same thing when I found AVS in August of 2002?
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