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8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 3  

post #61 of 5892
1/9/07 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

It's too bad SED was no show at CES. I'd have loved to hear your opinion about it. My impression from Pioneer's information is that what they've improved is mainly black level and daylight performance. Based on that I'd say that SED should still be noticably better in things like fill rate, motion display, lack of digital artifacts etc...

How about being better at being released?

Hah, had to go there.

I do wonder if the newer Pio Plasmas have any pics online yet. Shouldn't the tech be demo'd against SED and LCD?

That's what I was hearing anyway.

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post #62 of 5892
1/9/07 at 12:49am
I hate every aspect of CRT, so I'll hate SED. If dynamic range and shadow detail are on par with CRT or better, then I'm 100% sold. So far no plasma can beat a CRT in that category. I can care less about contrastier, etc. I love watching a lot of dramas such as House M.D. , and Law and Order, which all use very low key lighting. Without that dynamic range a CRT provides, you just can't see all the details in the clothing of the actors.
post #63 of 5892
1/9/07 at 1:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Did I read the same thing when I found AVS in August of 2002?

Well, plasma has improved since then, but I still see many digital artifacts in (most?) today's plasmas. I can only hope the new Pioneers are improved in this regard, too. But unless the problem is fully solved, I will still dream of something better.
post #64 of 5892
1/9/07 at 1:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I'm wondering if they're talking about using a polarizer or a neutral density filter ????

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/83363/from/rss09

This German site claims they're using a "Polymeric Grayfilter", whatever that means.
post #65 of 5892
1/9/07 at 2:04am
It's just some fancy glass impregnated with a polymer substance to make a neutral density gray filter. Hopefully it'll make this plasma have less of a dual function as a mirror
post #66 of 5892
1/9/07 at 2:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

It's just some fancy glass impregnated with a polymer substance to make a neutral density gray filter. Hopefully it'll make this plasma have less of a dual function as a mirror

Can you explain a bit more what this all means? I'm no expert in filter technology, so what you're saying sounds like Vulcan language to me.
post #67 of 5892
1/9/07 at 2:46am
Usually with a organic polymer, most of the time a "plastic". Which looks like this:

http://www.sro-optics.com/images/1%20inch%20OD-AR.jpg

Without filter you can get this:
http://members.aol.com/kconeil/ndex3_s.jpg

With filter this:
http://members.aol.com/kconeil/ndex2_s.jpg
post #68 of 5892
1/9/07 at 3:01am
Thread Starter 
Thanks, so you mean to say that this is a good thing, right? What's the difference between a polarizer and a neutral density filter?
post #69 of 5892
1/9/07 at 3:14am
Stop leaving us in suspenders! Who the heck cares about a 1365x768 PDP-6070HD?!? You CES attendees, get back to the Pioneer booth and compare the new forthcoming panel(s) to the Pro-FHD1 already!!! On the double!
post #70 of 5892
1/9/07 at 3:17am
A polarizer makes all light go one direction. A ND stops down light, similar to closing an iris. With a ND the color temperature of the light is changed as little as possible. So in all likelihood both a ND(for keeping rich colors) and polarizer(lessen reflections) are being used.
post #71 of 5892
1/9/07 at 3:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If this is truly a more astounding picture than SED, then there will be no SED to get excited about. Why? Because, um, the demo just wasn't that exciting.

It's probably because this plasma has "only" 20K:1 CR. Unfortunately, all that talk about contrast being so high they couldn't measure it was probably just marketing hype from Pioneer.

Since you've seen both Pioneer and all the high contrast LCDs at CES, which tech, in your opinion, produced better PQ?
post #72 of 5892
1/9/07 at 3:53am
Did anyone notice that the demo pic of the 8th gen. Pioneer on the IGN site showed a panel that said "Pioneer" and not "E l i t e"?

If the forthcoming new panel is 60" and full 1080p (and hopefully HDMI 1.3, too) and it's not an Elite, what the heck is it? And how would an Elite version (presumably the successor to the PRO-FHD1) differ?
post #73 of 5892
1/9/07 at 4:03am
New article on IGN's site just posted ... from someone who got to see the "closed-door" demo of the new Pioneer technology.

Executive Summary: They came out of it just as impressed with it as they were with Canon's SED displays last year!

The bad news: "Pioneer representatives expressed some concerns regarding the expense of the technology, which we fully expect to first appear at a high premium."
post #74 of 5892
1/9/07 at 4:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post

Did anyone notice that the demo pic of the 8th gen. Pioneer on the IGN site showed a panel that said "Pioneer" and not "E l i t e"?

If the forthcoming new panel is 60" and full 1080p (and hopefully HDMI 1.3, too) and it's not an Elite, what the heck is it? And how would an Elite version (presumably the successor to the PRO-FHD1) differ?

I believe ELITE is just for North America - like Lexus/Toyota - so the fact that the demo only has Pioneer on the front doesn't really mean much. They could have been using the cosmetics for the Japanese models.
post #75 of 5892
1/9/07 at 4:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I hate every aspect of CRT, so I'll hate SED. If dynamic range and shadow detail are on par with CRT or better, then I'm 100% sold. So far no plasma can beat a CRT in that category. I can care less about contrastier, etc. I love watching a lot of dramas such as House M.D. , and Law and Order, which all use very low key lighting. Without that dynamic range a CRT provides, you just can't see all the details in the clothing of the actors.

Uh. Can you be any more contradictory? You hate all aspects of CRT but care about dynamic range and shadow detail (where CRT excells)? You can care less? You mean can't care less. Or maybe not since you care about shadow detail which requires a big contrast range. Which you can care less about. You make no sense.
post #76 of 5892
1/9/07 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Usually with a organic polymer, most of the time a "plastic". Which looks like this:

http://www.sro-optics.com/images/1%20inch%20OD-AR.jpg

Without filter you can get this:
http://members.aol.com/kconeil/ndex3_s.jpg

With filter this:
http://members.aol.com/kconeil/ndex2_s.jpg

I prefer the detail of pic 2 with the color/contrast of pic 1.
post #77 of 5892
1/9/07 at 5:43am
This or sed so far are the only fixed pixel flat panel display technologies that I may purchase later this year, as I just love black level and contrast and my current tv delivers it in spades.

If the specs are true, and it has realistic color and color saturation, billions and trillions and expanded mean nothing if they look artificial, has good viewing in daylight without those annoying reflections, good response time, and the ability to play Gears of War and EA games for hours and letterbox 2.35 and 4:3 movies without image retention and is in the under $5000 catagory then Pioineer or Toshiba may get my money.
In the meantime I am enjoying My Sony XBR960/hddvd/xbox360 combo too much.
post #78 of 5892
1/9/07 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

A polarizer makes all light go one direction. A ND stops down light, similar to closing an iris. With a ND the color temperature of the light is changed as little as possible. So in all likelihood both a ND(for keeping rich colors) and polarizer(lessen reflections) are being used.

Very close.

A polarizer in effect only allows light through from a particular angle, usually straight on and rejects off angle light which also accounts for richer color. Those familiar with photographic polarizers know what I'm referring to. One of the side effects is a reduction of total light output which is what a neutral density filter does.

I would be a little concerned about viewing angles if they used a polarizer. I guess it'll be a while before we know if its a polarizer or not and what if any side effects are.
post #79 of 5892
1/9/07 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post

New article on IGN's site just posted ... from someone who got to see the "closed-door" demo of the new Pioneer technology.

Executive Summary: They came out of it just as impressed with it as they were with Canon's SED displays last year!

The bad news: "Pioneer representatives expressed some concerns regarding the expense of the technology, which we fully expect to first appear at a high premium."

That is one demo I would have liked to have seen.

Rogo, if you have seen this demo or will later, please comment on the bright room part of it.
post #80 of 5892
1/9/07 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post

New article on IGN's site just posted ... from someone who got to see the "closed-door" demo of the new Pioneer technology.

Executive Summary: They came out of it just as impressed with it as they were with Canon's SED displays last year!

The bad news: "Pioneer representatives expressed some concerns regarding the expense of the technology, which we fully expect to first appear at a high premium."

It's unfortunate that it will be so exspensive to just come close to what Quality CRT tubes have been able to do for decades. I am not amazed that they are almost there, I am amazed it is taking so long.

Contrast question: since there is no agreed on standard way of measuring the dynamic/Static contrast specs we see, how can anyone take any of them too serious.
Even on my CRT I have seen 5000 for static ,40000 for dynamic and also unlimited, now which one is true.
The blacks are outmnof this world black hole black

What really gets me is SED and now Pioneer claim to achieve crt like contrast ratio and shawdow detail, viewing angle and response time yet in all of these close door sessions, there is no quality CRT HDTV or broadcast monitor to be found.

Is it just me or:

Wouldnt the case be made all the more dramatic if they had a ISF calibrated CRT or $40000 broadcast monitor going against thier product and either losing or being equal.
post #81 of 5892
1/9/07 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

Wouldnt the case be made all the more dramatic if they had a ISF calibrated CRT or $40000 broadcast monitor going against thier product and either losing or being equal.

It wouldn't be fair unless there was a CRT even remotely close in size to a 60" PDP.
post #82 of 5892
1/9/07 at 6:46am
Kudos to Pioneer for continuing to innovate and a major boo to Canon/Toshiba for their multiple SED failures.

The Pio non-glowing blacks are a major accomplishment, if verified. My TH-50PHD8UK glows in the dark like crazy; I am amazed that Ken Ross finds these abysmal black levels satisfying.

The new Pios need a CRT-like gray-scale tracking. Nobody needs deep but crushed blacks.

They also need to remedy the green phosphor lag. I am not hopeful that they have eliminated rainbows/flashes, but since there are just about 10 freaks (myself included) in the whole world who see them on a plasma, I don't think that's high on Pioneer's priority list...

Overall an excellent job by Pioneer - this will force the LCD people to improve upon their neon black levels!!!
post #83 of 5892
1/9/07 at 6:47am
So is Pio getting out of the ~$3000 PLASMA MARKET? Will there be a 4280 or 5080?
post #84 of 5892
1/9/07 at 6:53am
These seem like they are going to be impressive displays, but something tells me they are going to come with a very hefty price tag as well.
post #85 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlconner View Post

These seem like they are going to be impressive displays, but something tells me they are going to come with a very hefty price tag as well.

Until Panny come out with something similar next year. Then its competition as usual.
post #86 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amheck View Post

So is Pio getting out of the ~$3000 PLASMA MARKET? Will there be a 4280 or 5080?

I'd guess to stay in the $3000 market, the 2006 Elite plasmas will become the 4280 or 5080 or 6080, and these new SED killers will be the Elite models of 2007 with very elite price tags to match (meaning only for the truly elite). Pio probably figured they won't have to make too many sets because so few consumers will be able to afford them. They release a small number of sets at high premiums so the early adopters pay for a good chunk of the R&D. Then the following year the prices drop.

I find it very interesting that there is no mention at all regarding 1080p, surely if they were 1080p, they would be blasting this bit of news through megaphones from every rooftop. These sets must be 768p, at least for this year.
post #87 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:21am
I hope the hefty price tag only comes with the 1080P/elite versions.

My interest is for the 720P 6080HD version to have the core panel improvements (with the usual new model reduced price point).
post #88 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

It's unfortunate that it will be so exspensive to just come close to what Quality CRT tubes have been able to do for decades. I am not amazed that they are almost there, I am amazed it is taking so long.

Contrast question: since there is no agreed on standard way of measuring the dynamic/Static contrast specs we see, how can anyone take any of them too serious.
Even on my CRT I have seen 5000 for static ,40000 for dynamic and also unlimited, now which one is true.
The blacks are outmnof this world black hole black

What really gets me is SED and now Pioneer claim to achieve crt like contrast ratio and shawdow detail, viewing angle and response time yet in all of these close door sessions, there is no quality CRT HDTV or broadcast monitor to be found.

Is it just me or:

Wouldnt the case be made all the more dramatic if they had a ISF calibrated CRT or $40000 broadcast monitor going against thier product and either losing or being equal.

A CRT with a black level near absolute black has an unlimited contrast ratio in theory. With CRT contrast ratio is not really an important statistic because the best ones can reach a black that no digital display can even think of... til now!

I don't get it either. Motion on plasmas in general, most people I speak to and including myself have not had problems, especially on the newest gen.

The viewing angle is basically 180 degrees on my Pioneer, (I went all the way to the edge, and there was no noticeable degradation in the picture... besides not being able to watch from that angle. Who the hell would watch at 179 degrees anyway?)

You are right about the CRT comparison. That'll be the best "In your face!" type. And why is it taking so long?

Tech reasons... but I feel it's more of an economic reason. No need to upgrade so much if you can have the sharpness/sexiness of digital displays with the black levels analog CRTs have.
post #89 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

How about being better at being released?

Hah, had to go there.

I do wonder if the newer Pio Plasmas have any pics online yet. Shouldn't the tech be demo'd against SED and LCD?

That's what I was hearing anyway.

I think it should be demoed against a quality hdtv CRT or broadcast monitor first, since that is what they are trying to equal and beat.

If they do well there then SED will have to demo against it.
I think the new LED LCDS are still trying to catch plasma in contrast, black level and shadow detail, While Plasma and SED are trying to catch quality CRTS, which have all but ceased production.
Everything is a moving target, steadily improving ecept CRT which is now the only stationary target.
post #90 of 5892
1/9/07 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

Kudos to Pioneer for continuing to innovate and a major boo to Canon/Toshiba for their multiple SED failures.

The Pio non-glowing blacks are a major accomplishment, if verified. My TH-50PHD8UK glows in the dark like crazy; I am amazed that Ken Ross finds these abysmal black levels satisfying.

The new Pios need a CRT-like gray-scale tracking. Nobody needs deep but crushed blacks.

They also need to remedy the green phosphor lag. I am not hopeful that they have eliminated rainbows/flashes, but since there are just about 10 freaks (myself included) in the whole world who see them on a plasma, I don't think that's high on Pioneer's priority list...

Overall an excellent job by Pioneer - this will force the LCD people to improve upon their neon black levels!!!

I agree. All digital displays glow black.

But the thing is, watch most digital displays, LCDs, and some projections and those Pioneer/Panasonic plasma "black" look a hell of alot blacker.

After watching a Sony LCD at work in the dark... I was bowing to my Pioneer by night time.

Of course watching a hi-quality CRT and coming back brings you back to reality, there has not been a time where I'd trade my TV for anything at the moment.

Only one of these new Pio tech TVs.
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