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Are LCD Projectors Dead?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
More properly I should say is the LCD transmissive projection technology finished and will be superseded by LCos and/or DLP?

This seems like a foolish question considering the tremendous strides that LCD projectors from Panasonic and Mitsubishi have made this last year with relatively low cost 1080p capabilities. As everyone here knows DLP technology based projectors are available from Optoma and Mitsubishi at under $1K. These models dominate that market nitche. Yet at approximately $4K and 1080p all the top models are LCD.

I think its clear that 480p is finished for HT. No manufacturer will spend a lot of engineering effort on developing new models for this market segment. Its easy to project the same future for 720p projectors. A few years from now the salesman will sneer when he shows you one of the cheaper, older 720p models. He will imply that you aren't really much of a man if you will settle for 720p. A few years after that and the 720p models won't even get shelf space.

Predicting the future is tough. Watch Back to the Future II . In the world of 2015 no one has a cell phone and no one has HT.

Nevertheless I boldly predict:

LCD projectors (both front and rear) will fade from the marketplace.

This insight came to me when I read all the glowing reviews of the new JVC RS1 and HD-1 LCos projectors.

Color Mixing
A few years ago the principal disadvantage of 1 chip DLPs were rain bows. One disadvantage of LCDs was missconvergence. If people would be satisfied with Black and White neither problem would exist.

I call this the "Orange Problem". To get orange or any other besides Red, Green, or Blue you have to mix colors. LCDs make the color orange by mixing proportions of RGB light from each of the three LCD panels. This is color mixing in the spatial dimension. DLPs can make orange by mixing RGB light sequentially from a color wheel. This is color mixing in the temporal dimension.

An LCD projector can make an error in color mixing if the three panels aren't well aligned. A 1 chip DLP can make a color mixing error if its color wheel doesn't spin fast enough. You pays your money and you chooses your poison.

Color wheels also throw away a lot of light.

The biggest failure of all front projectors is coming to an end soon - the expensive, delicate, and fading mercury bulb will soon be obsolete. There will soon be LEDs in RGB colors that solve all these problems. This technology will help all types of projectors but DLPs most of all. A 1 chip DLP projector with LEDs should be cheap, reliable, and bright. LCD and LCos projectors will benefit also but not as dramatically.

LCD Problems
LCDs have had a number of disadvantages compared to DLPs or CRTs. These include higher black levels, thermal degradation, less contrast, and the screen door effect.

Blacks CRTs, of course, achieved black the old fashion way - they pull the plug. A cathode gun simply doesn't send a signal for a black pixel. It can do this because it processes the pixels sequentially (I know this is a technically inelegant statement).

An LCD projector has a bulb that is always on. It relies on the tiny pixel sized shutters to completely close to create black. Transmissive LCDs are certainly better than they used to be with black but even the best, newest C2Fine LCD panels let too much light through.

Reflective technologies have an easier time with blacks. They too have a light that is always on but they can aim the mirrors so as to show nearly nothing when the video signal calls for black.

In the last year or so the LCD manufacturers have developed a sophisticated dynamic iris that goes some way toward closing the gap with the reflective technologies on dark scenes. Some purists call this cheating but it seems to be a real advance that will be adopted soon on DLP and LCos machines too. Given equal DIs the reflective projectors should still have better blacks.

It may come to pass that DLPs with LEDs will win the blackness battle. A DLP achieves a gray scale by turning off and on incredibly fast in various patterns from 100% On to 0% On. LCos can't do it this way because even the fastest liquid crystals are many times slower than the DLP micro mirrors.

When there is an orange pixel on the screen of a DLP projector, it got there by cycling the mirrors on when the Red segment is in front of the light path, cycling the mirrors a little less on when the Green segment is in front and so forth. When the wrong color for a particular pixel's orange is in front of the light path that pixel's mirror tilts away. That's why a 1 chip DLP with a mercury bulb wastes light.

With a DLP using a set of three LEDs it may be possible to turn them all off when black is called for. LEDs cycle very fast but maybe not fast enough for this. If it is possible, then 1 chip DLPs will have invincible blacks.

I don't see how LCDs or LCos machines can utilize the LED speed advantages because liquid crystals won't be fast enough. An LED driven LCD projector will have to have the three LEDs on all the time. The same is true for LCos.

Thermal degradation - TI claims LCDs degrade. Many users of this forum have reported problems. The new inorganic liquid crystals are said to have solved this problem. It's too soon to tell. In any case DLP and LCos as reflective technologies don't have this defect.

Screen Door Transmissive LCDs have to have the addressing circuitry in a ring around each pixel window. Reflective technologies like DLP and LCos have this circuitry behind the pixel. Reflective technologies have an intrinsic fill factor advantage.

Price

When LED based projectors arrive the initial cost becomes more important. Currently if you buy a $1K projector and keep it for 3 bulbs you will have spent about the same money on the bulbs as on the initial price. Today a nominally $1K projector really costs $2K. With LEDs a $1K projector really costs $1K.

Soon ethnic humor will also suffer. The answer to the question "How many Poles does it take to change a light bulb?" will be "Why change a light bulb?" or "Can you change a light bulb?" or even "What's a light bulb?".

Moore's law works on all micro electronics not just CPUs. Faroudja chips used to cost a fortune. Today equivalents are built into entry level machines. Now people pay a premium for Gennum chips but quite soon all projectors will have that level of processing. The silicon video processing in projector will come to be an incidental cost.

When every projector is 1080p, and operating costs are all low, and the video processing is sophisticated in all of them, the DLP machines could dominate because of price.

Right now the big LCD advantage is lens shift. LCos machines (JVC, Sony) also have lens shift at about the same price.

Predictions

I expect a couple LCD projector manufacturers to try to license LCos technology from Sony or JVC. I expect LCD sales to slowly decline at the expense of LCos and DLP.

I expect 1080p DLP prices to drop like a rock. Optoma and Benq 1080p projectors should be at or near $3K by next Labor Day. When the first LED DLP projectors arrive in early 2008 they will come in at about $8K. They will drop to about $4K by Labor Day 2008. In 2009 1 chip 1080p DLP projectors will sell for less than $1K.

Increasingly price pressure on HT projectors will come not from other projectors but from flat panels (plasma, LCD, and DLP). It will be hard to sell a projector to create a 100" screen at $6k and up when you can buy a 100" TV that is cheaper, easier to install, and to accommodate to domestic architecture and furniture.

There will always be projectors for the really big screens but the "sweet spot" in HT is somewhere around a 16:9 screen that is 8 feet wide. That size is within reach of affordable hang-it-on-the-wall technologies within a year or two. Projectors are going to become the low cost alternative for a big screen.
post #2 of 13
Very interesting!
post #3 of 13
This is interesting, however, I just bought into one of these dead technologies (HC5000).

I do agree that plain-jane transmissive LCD is on it's way out for the most part.
post #4 of 13
I personally have never liked LCD projectors.

A friend did not listen to me and got one...now he regrets it.

I think we will still continue to see them though, despite their weaknesses.
post #5 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagMan View Post

This is interesting, however, I just bought into one of these dead technologies (HC5000).

I do agree that plain-jane transmissive LCD is on it's way out for the most part.

I think I could live with one of these "dead" technologies(HC5000) "for the most part" too.
post #6 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagMan View Post

This is interesting, however, I just bought into one of these dead technologies (HC5000).

I do agree that plain-jane transmissive LCD is on it's way out for the most part.

Shag we can cry together. I also did the same and love it. Something about the mad whirr of the colorwheels that sets them back waay back into the analog ages, and i am a 0-1-0-1 fanboy
post #7 of 13
LCD won't die as long as the price advantage exists. DLP simply can't win 100% of the market because of sequential color issues (imo) and LCOS is still slightly more expensive in the US - in Japan LCDs are cheaper and LCOS are no cheaper or in some cases more expensive than they are in the US.

When you look at street prices (wont discuss any specifics) - LCOS projectors are now the same price or sometimes less than (!) 3LCD 1080p pjs in the US. I personally find this silly given LCOS' advantages (IMO). I think 1080p LCD prices will plummet within 3 months - they are artificially high to maintain because of high initial costs and low availability of panels, and because for some manufacturers they are the top of the line product for now. With some product attrition and increased volume, LCD prices will drop faster than LCOS and there will be some clear space between them within ~4 months, I'd predict.

The DLP predictions earlier are quite interesting, but 1080p for < $1000 by labor day 2009 is bold! I don't find this impossible, and hope this is the case. I think TI will need to make some technological improvements in native contrast and or cheaper + better DI soon or they will start falling behind. LED is interesting in the short term for RPTVs but I don't see bright LED DLPs FP pjs coming for at least another year. Optoma made an attempt with an DI DLP , but they are clearly far behind the curve with DI when compared to Sony and the 3 LCD camp who've been at DI and 3D Gamma for years now. TI needs to make full DI optical engines that are comparable to at least current gen 3LCD / SXRD available and cheap to DLP / FP licensees in order for them to stay competitive, imho.
post #8 of 13
The price difference is still there. In my budget, there was only one choice since I needed 1080P... that was the HC5000... the Pearl was more, the RS-1 was more.
post #9 of 13
IMHO LCD has been given a new lease on life with this new crop of 1080p projectors.

Besides, despite theorectical musings about LCD issues, the picture on the HC5000 is flat out outstanding. That is really what matters. Plus it fits both my budget and physical setup.

I predict there will be at least 3-5 more years of LCD technology rolling out to the general public. Who knows what the next big thing will be?

Whatever it is, this time will be looked back upon as a golden age of front projection someday.

Brian
post #10 of 13
"I don't see how LCDs or LCos machines can utilize the LED speed advantages because liquid crystals won't be fast enough."

They don't need the speed advantages because they don't have sequential CW's.

All tech's benefit from the LED speed advantage that allows dynamic iris functionality.

I also think LCD will stay as long as DLP can't give lens shift at the same cost and PQ, many people simply can't use a pj w/o it.
post #11 of 13
Wow, excellent post, PBL! Very informative, with bold predictions.

I just hope that the technology with the best PQ wins out, and is not sidetracked by marketing or some company's political agenda. And I definitely look forward to the day when I can turn on and off a projector whenever I feel like it, without regard for the lamp.

I do agree that very soon projectors will have stiff competition from the 100" flat panel displays. I wonder who will buy projectors then if price is not an issue? I hope by that time projectors are extra bright so we can project a 20' foot image. That'll buy us a few more years before plasma and LCD catch up!
post #12 of 13
I don't think it will die for some time. Why? Cost first off. You can get a loaded high end LCD for usually quite a bit less than some of the other technologies. But, remember that LCD is also the 2nd oldest technology (1987). It definitely is on a downword movement as far as manufacturers choosing to continue to develop it (at least for front projection).
post #13 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

I hope by that time projectors are extra bright so we can project a 20' foot image.

20' screen? How many will have space to do that? Maybe, we can use them to throw backyard movie parties or watch sports outdoor on these huge screens :-)
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