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The "HTIB SUCKS!" Challenge...  

post #1 of 43
1/10/07 at 7:41pm
Thread Starter 
Alright, so here's the challenge to all those who like to spout the obvious "HTIB SUCKS!" A lot of people like to just say HTIB sucks and then either offer no alternative, or start talking about setups that total $600-$800. That's not a fair comparison. What would you buy instead of the Onkyo HT-S790 for $400-$500? Can I go buy an Onkyo 504 receiver for $230 and get better sub+speakers for $170-$270? A decent sub alone will blow this budget.

A few here mention buying the HT-S790 and selling the speakers on e-bay for a surprisingly good price. Anybody have recommendations on a complete 7.1 speaker setup for, say $400?


Patrick

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post #2 of 43
1/10/07 at 8:37pm
I bought the S790 4 hours ago from CC using a Ebay coupon for $359+taxes. So for what I paid for, I believe the S790 is a winner...hands down.

Ray
post #3 of 43
1/10/07 at 8:42pm
I assume you are excluding shipping costs in this, as they are so variable. Here is my set-up which took me some time to accumulate with patience, and waiting for sales:

Pioneer VSX-516 receiver on sale $70
Athena Point 5 (1 x C.5 center, 4 x S.5's) $120
Athena 2 x S.5's $20
BIC-H100 Sub $200
post #4 of 43
1/10/07 at 10:57pm
$100-$150 Used Reciever (100w x5, DD, DTS, thats it)
$200 Velodyne CHT Front Row
$200 BIC-H100 Sub
post #5 of 43
1/11/07 at 12:44am
When piecing togther a seperate system, you definitely have to be patient. All the great deal don't usually come together in the same week.

But here is a quick and easy system under $500.

KEF speakers
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-.../KEFKHT1005BLK

Onkyo Receiver
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-...em/ONKTXSR504B
post #6 of 43
1/11/07 at 5:17am
refurb'd onkyo 504 ($160) + athena micra 5.1 package ($299) = $460

or

onkyo 504 + velodyne front row 5.0 spkrs ($199) + dayton 10" sub ($99) = $460

or

athena p400 sub + S.5's from ebay (slower process, but probably great deals)

or

insignia bookshelf speakers from BB at around $50/pair + athena/dayton sub or velodyne VX-10 sub for $150.

it can be done...and the difference in SQ is worth it, at least IMO.
post #7 of 43
1/11/07 at 5:58am
Us po folks gotta make do with HTIB like the Samsung HT-P38 which provides good enough sound for movies and tv. Some of us just don't have extra income for fancy HT setups....
post #8 of 43
1/11/07 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike View Post

Us po folks gotta make do with HTIB like the Samsung HT-P38 which provides good enough sound for movies and tv. Some of us just don't have extra income for fancy HT setups....

If you read the OP, it says "Anybody have recommendations on a complete 7.1 speaker setup for, say $400 instead of the Onkyo HT-S790?"

That's what we are responding to. A lot of people go for HTIB for a variety of reasons, some people want components. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the OP wanted some suggestions of components. It's got nothing to do with being "po", just a matter of preference.
post #9 of 43
1/11/07 at 7:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagash View Post

If you read the OP, it says "Anybody have recommendations on a complete 7.1 speaker setup for, say $400 instead of the Onkyo HT-S790?"

That's what we are responding to. A lot of people go for HTIB for a variety of reasons, some people want components. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the OP wanted some suggestions of components. It's got nothing to do with being "po", just a matter of preference.

Yes. This is about building up something better than the $400-$500 HTIB for a similar price. We're still spending the same $400-$500, but we're basically looking for better speakers than the HTIB comes with. We're not compromising - no component should be less than what's in the 790. The receiver, the sub, all the speakers all need to be as good or better than the HTIB - and still a 7.1 system - no backing down to 5.1. Can it be done for a similar price?

I'm just trying to get a little more conversation than "HTIB sucks - get components!" because the newbie has no idea what components to get - that's typically why he's in the HTIB market to begin with.

Thanks to those who have already made recommendations on viable setups and thanks in advance to anyone who wants to come make more recommendations or else second a setup or certain components that have already been mentioned.

It'd also be cool if someone wants to comment on general concepts here - what is it about the HTIB's included speakers that are so crappy? What exactly is the improvement in sound that you expect to hear from a cheap set of replacements? How much improvement can you expect? What are general things to look for in a set of speakers, whether they be cheap or more expensive, and in particular, what is the feature set that you can expect to see in cheap replacement speakers and how does that compare to (for instance) the 790's included speakers?


Patrick
post #10 of 43
1/11/07 at 9:38am
Quote:


The receiver, the sub, all the speakers all need to be as good or better than the HTIB - and still a 7.1 system - no backing down to 5.1. Can it be done for a similar price?

I'll take another stab.

3 pairs of Acoustic Research ARVP25 speakers $150
http://www.mcminone.com/category.asp...3829601&Page=1

Acoustic Research Center Channel speaker ARXP242C $59
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4151631

Sony SA-WM250 powered sub $90
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SA-WM250-...&s=electronics

Onkyo 504 receiver. $170
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-...em/ONKTXSR504B

Total cost $470. Do we have a winner? All these items are in stock too.

And if you prefer matching speakers all the way around, you can get 4 pairs of the AR bookshelves and drop the center speaker for $10 less.
post #11 of 43
1/11/07 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick707 View Post

It'd also be cool if someone wants to comment on general concepts here - what is it about the HTIB's included speakers that are so crappy? What exactly is the improvement in sound that you expect to hear from a cheap set of replacements? How much improvement can you expect? What are general things to look for in a set of speakers, whether they be cheap or more expensive, and in particular, what is the feature set that you can expect to see in cheap replacement speakers and how does that compare to (for instance) the 790's included speakers?

HTIB speakers are usually made with materials of the lowest common denominator so that the entire unit can meet a certain pricepoint. the cabinets are made of cheap material with little reinforcement. the cross-overs are bare-bones and often not optimized for the configuration of the box. the drivers are made of heavy paper or a cheap synthetic polymer. i could go on, but you get the idea.

swap out your front three HTIB speakers with a decent center channel and a pair of bookshelves that can survive on their own merits in the A/V market. the most dramatic improvement will be the improvement in clarity. those HTIB speakers will sound like there was a pillow in front of them before (most noticeable with movie dialogue). imaging will be more precise, the soundstage created by stereo music will be wider and more expansive. bass will be more rich and natural sounding. you'll notice the speakers themselves are more sturdy and have general feel of decent craftsmanship. you may get 5-way binding posts instead of cheap spring clips.

the increase in quality going from HTIB speakers to decent $150/pr is a huge jump. as you go up the food chain, there are real improvments to be seen, but the incremental size of the performance improvements gets smaller and smaller. once you get to $500/pr and up, many people (not all) start realizing diminishing returns.

i started out with an onkyo 780 HTIB, and have since gone on to a 5.0 athena setup ($300) and an SVS sub. the sub is a whole 'nother discussion, but the logic is the same...
post #12 of 43
1/11/07 at 9:53am
You would have to spend close to $1,000.00 to get a setup that even comes close to the HT-S790.
post #13 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:02am
I think I just showed you could spend $500 to better that 790 setup in my previous post.

Plus I actually own an Onkyo/Athena setup that cost me $480.

Onkyo 573 $199 new
Athena AS-B1 $79/pr new
Athena AS-C1 center $49 new
Athena Point Satellites $50/pr new
Dayton 10" downfiring sub $99 new

And if you were lucky enough to get in on the Advent H200 sale a month ago for $32/pr, its even easier to do.

you have to do more work to find the bargains but it can be done
post #14 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flags View Post

You would have to spend close to $1,000.00 to get a setup that even comes close to the HT-S790.

Not true. I can put together a $500 system that will smoke that 790, leave alone $1k worth of components.
post #15 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatplasma View Post

Not true. I can put together a $500 system that will smoke that 790, leave alone $1k worth of components.

This thread is about backing up those claims. Let's see it!
post #16 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:36am
I already did!
post #17 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I think I just showed you could spend $500 to better that 790 setup in my previous post.

Plus I actually own an Onkyo/Athena setup that cost me $480.

Onkyo 573 $199 new
Athena AS-B1 $79/pr new
Athena AS-C1 center $49 new
Athena Point Satellites $50/pr new
Dayton 10" downfiring sub $99 new

And if you were lucky enough to get in on the Advent H200 sale a month ago for $32/pr, its even easier to do.

you have to do more work to find the bargains but it can be done


Hey afrogt, where did you get your athena stuff for so cheap?
post #18 of 43
1/11/07 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I already did!

You did, but ieatplasma didn't. I meant to thank you for your responses already, but I got pulled away from the computer.
post #19 of 43
1/11/07 at 11:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-star View Post

HTIB speakers are usually made with materials of the lowest common denominator so that the entire unit can meet a certain pricepoint. the cabinets are made of cheap material with little reinforcement. the cross-overs are bare-bones and often not optimized for the configuration of the box. the drivers are made of heavy paper or a cheap synthetic polymer. i could go on, but you get the idea.

swap out your front three HTIB speakers with a decent center channel and a pair of bookshelves that can survive on their own merits in the A/V market. the most dramatic improvement will be the improvement in clarity. those HTIB speakers will sound like there was a pillow in front of them before (most noticeable with movie dialogue). imaging will be more precise, the soundstage created by stereo music will be wider and more expansive. bass will be more rich and natural sounding. you'll notice the speakers themselves are more sturdy and have general feel of decent craftsmanship. you may get 5-way binding posts instead of cheap spring clips.

the increase in quality going from HTIB speakers to decent $150/pr is a huge jump. as you go up the food chain, there are real improvments to be seen, but the incremental size of the performance improvements gets smaller and smaller. once you get to $500/pr and up, many people (not all) start realizing diminishing returns.

i started out with an onkyo 780 HTIB, and have since gone on to a 5.0 athena setup ($300) and an SVS sub. the sub is a whole 'nother discussion, but the logic is the same...

Thanks for the great reply, but one more thing. What do you look for when you're shopping for good speakers? So far, I understand that better speakers use better materials, the difference that makes in the sound, etc., but how do I pick out a good set of speakers? The only thing I've got to go on right now is just buy the most expensive ones I can afford.

For instance, go to Amazon or Accessories4Less or wherever you like and look at a list of the speakers they have. What do you look for besides price to be able to pick out which is the best speaker? What can I look for on the feature lists or specs when I'm shopping online for a pair of speakers?
post #20 of 43
1/11/07 at 11:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I'll take another stab.

3 pairs of Acoustic Research ARVP25 speakers $150
http://www.mcminone.com/category.asp...3829601&Page=1

Acoustic Research Center Channel speaker ARXP242C $59
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4151631

Sony SA-WM250 powered sub $90
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SA-WM250-...&s=electronics

Onkyo 504 receiver. $170
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-...em/ONKTXSR504B

Total cost $470. Do we have a winner? All these items are in stock too.

And if you prefer matching speakers all the way around, you can get 4 pairs of the AR bookshelves and drop the center speaker for $10 less.

This is the kind of response I'm looking for. Awesome, afrogt. Does anyone else want to comment on this system, tweak it a bit, or offer up a completely different alternative? What are the strengths here and what piece is the weakness that would be the first thing to look at replacing? Could it be replaced with not much more cost?
post #21 of 43
1/11/07 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I'll take another stab.

3 pairs of Acoustic Research ARVP25 speakers $150
http://www.mcminone.com/category.asp...3829601&Page=1

Acoustic Research Center Channel speaker ARXP242C $59
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4151631

Sony SA-WM250 powered sub $90
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-SA-WM250-...&s=electronics

Onkyo 504 receiver. $170
http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-...em/ONKTXSR504B

Total cost $470. Do we have a winner? All these items are in stock too.

And if you prefer matching speakers all the way around, you can get 4 pairs of the AR bookshelves and drop the center speaker for $10 less.

Would it be cool to bump up to the ARXP62 speakers for the fronts at $99/pair? How about the Infinity Primus 150 for about $120/pair?

Any comments on those Insignia speakers everyone's been raving about for $50/pair compared to the Acoustic Research ARVP25 for the same price?
post #22 of 43
1/11/07 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick707 View Post

Thanks for the great reply, but one more thing. What do you look for when you're shopping for good speakers? So far, I understand that better speakers use better materials, the difference that makes in the sound, etc., but how do I pick out a good set of speakers? The only thing I've got to go on right now is just buy the most expensive ones I can afford.

this can be tough to quantify. the best thing to do is to listen to a few pair in your price range and make the decision on what sounds best to you. 5 pair of speakers in a given price class will probably perform at around the same level, but may have different strenghths/weaknesses.

if you're going to buy w/o listening first, spend some time in the speaker forum to hear what other owners have to say about speakers you're contemplating. some speakers have reputations of being "bright", "warm", or "neutral". hard numbers to look at would be sensitivity, power handling, and frequency response, and where they roll off on the low end at the +/- 3db point.

if at all possible, try to audition them before buying...its really the best way to go.
post #23 of 43
1/11/07 at 1:41pm
Quote:


Would it be cool to bump up to the ARXP62 speakers for the fronts at $99/pair? How about the Infinity Primus 150 for about $120/pair?

Any comments on those Insignia speakers everyone's been raving about for $50/pair compared to the Acoustic Research ARVP25 for the same price?

If you're going to purchase the Infinity speakers you need a matching Infinity center which will take you well over your $500 ceiling.

The AR 62 speaker has a 6.5 woofer vs the 5.25 in the ARVP25. You should get lower bass response. Here are the specs for both.
http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/s...3726&langId=-1

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/s...3402&langId=-1

I heard the Insignia and I'm not as impressed as everyone else has been. They're fine for $50 though. But they didn't compare to my Advent or Athena bookshelf speakers. Just in case your weren't aware, the Insignia now go for $80/pr.
post #24 of 43
1/11/07 at 1:47pm
Quote:


Hey afrogt, where did you get your athena stuff for so cheap?

All from Best Buy when they're were clearing out the in store stock of Athenas maybe a year and a half ago. I got the Point 5 satellites for $25 new on eBay this summer but added in the $25 shipping to get to $50.
post #25 of 43
1/11/07 at 5:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

If you're going to purchase the Infinity speakers you need a matching Infinity center which will take you well over your $500 ceiling.

Yeah, I'm getting off of my original message - it's too easy to say "for another $50, you get this... and then for another $20 over here, you get THIS!" and the budget's blown. That's what makes this a challenge. I'm already at $520 if I go to the AR62s in front and that's before shipping... and speaker wire... and stands (which don't count against the 790 comparison).
post #26 of 43
1/11/07 at 5:31pm
In my opinion there is no way i could have assembled a decent system going separates here in Canada and not exceed 650$+tax Can. which is the price i paid for my Onkyo HT-S590. It is already checked and the proper math has been done. It just doesn't fit my budget. A little example, at the boxing day we had Infinity Primus package including sub for 500$ Can. almost the price of my entire system, and don't forget to add the tax. receiver is not a problem to buy for 350$ or so but as far as speakers are concerned here in Canada it is a pain in the butt. They are just expensive. HTIB is a good way to stay on the budget.
post #27 of 43
1/11/07 at 5:56pm
Quote:


Yeah, I'm getting off of my original message - it's too easy to say "for another $50, you get this... and then for another $20 over here, you get THIS!" and the budget's blown

Yes its very easy to go over your budget. I was trying to get you a system where you wouldn't have to do any upgrades.

That's the best deal I've found so far.
post #28 of 43
1/11/07 at 6:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick707 View Post

Yeah, I'm getting off of my original message - it's too easy to say "for another $50, you get this... and then for another $20 over here, you get THIS!" and the budget's blown.

its difficult to find a decent receiver, 7 speakers, and a powered sub for $400 b/c at this pricepoint , you're trying to go below the lowest common denominator of performance. this system costs this much b/c frankly, the speakers and sub are junk.

if all one really has to spend is $400, then i would recommend starting off with a quality 2.1 system and then adding the additional speakers over time as the budget allows. in this culture of "gotta have it all right now", that may be a tall order. but in retrospect, that is the way i would have done it, and would have been the best move both financially and in terms of SQ.
post #29 of 43
1/11/07 at 7:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-star View Post

if all one really has to spend is $400, then i would recommend starting off with a quality 2.1 system and then adding the additional speakers over time as the budget allows. in this culture of "gotta have it all right now", that may be a tall order. but in retrospect, that is the way i would have done it, and would have been the best move both financially and in terms of SQ.

That's not bad advice, methinks. It seems particularly well suited to my situation, where maybe a 2.1 system would be better for my current setup anyway. Alright, so what would you start with? What's your $400-$500ish 2.1 system with room to grow to 7.1?

How about:
Onkyo 504 for $170
Infinity Primus 150 for $120/pair
Infinity Primus C25 Center for $130 (maybe better - I just found it quick on Amazon)
A ~$100 sub

Maybe more money should be spent on the sub than the center?
post #30 of 43
1/11/07 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick707 View Post

That's not bad advice, methinks. It seems particularly well suited to my situation, where maybe a 2.1 system would be better for my current setup anyway. Alright, so what would you start with? What's your $400-$500ish 2.1 system with room to grow to 7.1?

How about:
Onkyo 504 for $170
Infinity Primus 150 for $120/pair
Infinity Primus C25 Center for $130 (maybe better - I just found it quick on Amazon)
A ~$100 sub

Maybe more money should be spent on the sub than the center?

by 2.1 i meant a receiver, a pair of bookshelf speakers, and a sub. add a matching center, then surrounds as the budget allows. personally, for $500, i would go with:

onkyo 504 for $170
athena AS-B1.2 for $119
Bic Acoustech H-100 12" sub for ~$220

the clarity of the athenas and extension/SQ of the H-100 are light years ahead of the onkyo speakers/sub. this would be an excellent start to a great budget HT.
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