or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › AVS Contrast Results
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

AVS Contrast Results - Page 7  

post #181 of 256
Sure, funny, I see no proof of that in this thread.
I can read, I can think, I can write, but can You tell me what the specifications tell us about the BenQ W10000?
Because if You can't You have proven Yourself wrong. Simple as that.
post #182 of 256
Quote:


The only explicit argument against my idea is that it can cause confusion. And this is to be put in the light of the "fact" that the current specifications are sufficent. Therefore I'm wrong - right?

Exactly. Your method, in idealized circumstances when used and understood by advanced videophiles, will add absolutely nothing new that we don't already know.

When used by anyone else, your method will be detrimental to understanding and will lead to poor purchase choices.

If you think that current specifications are not sufficient, than you must also think that your specification of "black level" is equally insufficient, because there is nothing quantified by what you are proposing that is not quantified with current specifications. I.e. nothing has been added except an immensely increased risk of general confusion with regular consumers.

Quote:


2. And Yes, gamma has everything to do with this. Because when the gain/drive/contrast of certain primaries are lowered to achieve good gamma tracking between the three primary colors, this will also in effect lower the contrast. That is why gamma matters.

No, that has nothing to do with anything. That is, again, an issue of measurement accuracy and reliability. Stop distracting the conversation away into things that are irrelevant to what you are proposing. Your proposal is JUST as much subject to these kinds of manipulations as any other, and as I've said before it is a given that we all want fair and accurate measurements, not marketing inflations. Please move beyond that and stop dragging the discussion back here to irrelevant issues.
post #183 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

Sure, funny, I see no proof of that in this thread.
I can read, I can think, I can write, but can You tell me what the specifications tell us about the BenQ W10000?
Because if You can't You have proven Yourself wrong. Simple as that.


Well, if we go with the BenQ numbers of 10,000:1 on/off CR, we can see that it has pretty decent black level capabilities.

If you had another BenQ projector with 4,000:1 on/of CR spec, we could easily see that the W10000 is a lot better in terms of its absolute black level capabilities.

There. I can correctly identify the fact that 10,000 is greater than 4,000. Is that so difficult?
post #184 of 256
I wasn't the first to move beyond the scope of specifications. We all here understand that specifications are just specifications and that they may cause vastly different results in real life.
It was in fact You guys who started talking about grey screens, lamp modes etc. So:

Should we talk about the specifications in an isolated sense or not?

Because if not - please tell me what can be gathered from the specifications concerning the BenQ.

You fail to see that the place I'm going with this is that the specifications we are discussing, the traditional OR my variation, are very, very schematic and have extremely little to do with the reality of each machine - and THEREFORE the damage that You suppose that the alternative would do is next to zero.
Why? Well, simply because there IS SO MUCH MORE to know and find out about each new projector so when one has done that, one has moved waaaaaaay beyond both the traditional spec and the alternative.

Again (and please read this sentence with the rest of this post in mind): The alternative spec:s are for average-Joes that will never worry about anything but getting the pj with the best numbers. Once he moves beyond that, he will soon find out that most of the stuff in the specification is *VERY* scetchy and should be interpreted with great care - and that goes for all data (except maybe the weigth and dimensions of the pj ).

Also - the question that You answer: "Exactly. Your method, in idealized circumstances when used and understood by advanced videophiles, will add absolutely nothing new that we don't already know." to above ONLY is valid for people other than average-Joe.
In fact, it's only valid for people who have the projectors that he wants to compare at hand and who has a colorimeter and the knowledge to use it correctly. And how many people are we talking about then? Well, in the US I don't know, but here in Sweden, we are talking about maybe 3-5 guys. Myself excluded, simply because I don't have access to all the pjs that I'd like to comare.
This is why You're living in a dream world.
post #185 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Well, if we go with the BenQ numbers of 10,000:1 on/off CR, we can see that it has pretty decent black level capabilities.

If you had another BenQ projector with 4,000:1 on/of CR spec, we could easily see that the W10000 is a lot better in terms of its absolute black level capabilities.

There. I can correctly identify the fact that 10,000 is greater than 4,000. Is that so difficult?

WOW!
Now You've done exactly the mistake that You say that people will do after reading my alternative specifications!
Amazing...
So this must mean that You really don't think that the alternative way could do any damage, simply that it's redundant.
Fascinating.
post #186 of 256
You have now proven:

1. That You don't think that the alternative way can cause any problems, since You deduct exactly the same information from the spec:s as the alternative way would give people who don't know the formula.

2. That the current specifications are indeed insufficient, because You have still not told me what the BenQ W10000 will do when in whisper mode.

Thanks for the help, man.
post #187 of 256
Quote:


Again (and please read this sentence with the rest of this post in mind): The alternative spec:s are for average-Joes that will never worry about anything but getting the pj with the best numbers.

Except that according to you the current specifications are too complicated for the average joe. Average Joe cannot identify which number is larger.

If Average Joe didn't get past kindergarten, you now feel that a more complicated method which involves algebra is simpler for Average Joe?

Do you understand how ridiculous your idea is, according to your own argument?
post #188 of 256
So Arioch, answer this question:

Projector 1: Black level of 5
Projector 2: Black level of 20

Which projector has better black level performance capabilities (which has the lower black level)?
post #189 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

WOW!
Now You've done exactly the mistake that You say that people will do after reading my alternative specifications!
Amazing...
So this must mean that You really don't think that the alternative way could do any damage, simply that it's redundant.
Fascinating.

No, you completely miss the point. This method works just fine with on/off CR, but fails miserably with your specification. The numbers for your specification have NO RELATIONSHIP to each other WHATSOEVER. You CANNOT compare any two numbers for any two given projectors AT ALL. So what the hell good is it? We don't know anything at all unless we're given a lot more information, the person knows a lot, AND the person can do algebra, using your system.
post #190 of 256
Quote:


No, you're an idiot.

Oh, exactly when did You come to that conclusion? Because if You've thought so for a long time, it surely would explain many of Your posts.
Nice manners...
post #191 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

So Arioch, answer this question:

Projector 1: Black level of 5
Projector 2: Black level of 20

Which projector has better black level performance capabilities (which has the lower black level)?

Well, You have already covered this when You wrote:

Quote:


Well, if we go with the BenQ numbers of 10,000:1 on/off CR, we can see that it has pretty decent black level capabilities.

If you had another BenQ projector with 4,000:1 on/of CR spec, we could easily see that the W10000 is a lot better in terms of its absolute black level capabilities.

There. I can correctly identify the fact that 10,000 is greater than 4,000. Is that so difficult?

You used exactly the same method as Darin suggested for calculating black levels (it actually wasn't I who came up with the idea on how to do it ) and came to the same conclusion as one would have if viewing the alternative way.
In doing that, You did exactly the mistake that You claim that people who know stuff and has gone more that two years of public school won't do. Weird...

And I'm still waiting for those numbers from the BenQ in whisper mode. Can't be that hard to find can they?
post #192 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

You have now proven:

1. That You don't think that the alternative way can cause any problems, since You deduct exactly the same information from the spec:s as the alternative way would give people who don't know the formula.

No. You have it COMPLETELY BACKWARDS. Your method requires algebra and additional specs to be at ALL comparable in any way. Your method requires a formula.

Quote:


2. That the current specifications are indeed insufficient, because You have still not told me what the BenQ W10000 will do when in whisper mode.

That is irrelevant. If someone gave me a specification of on/off CR in whisper mode (which I have no idea what that means), then I could tell you. The fact that there isn't a spec listed for some specific product in some specific mode is completely irrelevant. You're just drawing the discussion off-topic again with a bunch of nonsense.

Why won't you answer my questions about which projector is better, given the kinds of numbers that you want to see?
post #193 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

No, you completely miss the point. This method works just fine with on/off CR, but fails miserably with your specification. The numbers for your specification have NO RELATIONSHIP to each other WHATSOEVER. You CANNOT compare any two numbers for any two given projectors AT ALL. So what the hell good is it? We don't know anything at all unless we're given a lot more information, the person knows a lot, AND the person can do algebra, using your system.

Oh, You edited away the "you're an idiot" part. I guess You don't think that I am an idiot then? Never mind...

Well, are You saying that the proposed black level and the current AL ratings are not related?
Or are You saying that the black level from different pjs aren't related? In the later case, that would mean that AL ratings between different pjs aren't related either. That could very well be a fact, but You need to explain that.
post #194 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

Well, You have already covered this when You wrote:



You used exactly the same method as Darin suggested for calculating black levels (it actually wasn't I who came up with the idea on how to do it ) and came to the same conclusion as one would have if viewing the alternative way.
In doing that, You did exactly the mistake that You claim that people who know stuff and has gone more that two years of public school won't do. Weird...

And I'm still waiting for those numbers from the BenQ in whisper mode. Can't be that hard to find can they?

Good lord are you dense.

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

I provided two made up numbers for a specification you are asking for, for two projectors. Now, tell me based on these numbers, what we know in terms of black level performance capabilities?

Just answer the question, you've been going in circles for pages now and you won't address this simple question even though its been posed to you multiple times.
post #195 of 256
Quote:


Or are You saying that the black level from different pjs aren't related?

Duh. They have nothing to do with each other at all. They cannot be compared whatsoever.

You are basically saying that instead of stating that we should say how fast a car can go, we should choose a different method for every specific car so they can't be directly compared.

For one car, we can say it goes 100mph top speed.
For car #2 we say that it goes 2000 miles per day top speed.
For car #3 we say that it goes 2 km per minute.
For car #4 we say that it goes 150 feet per second.
For car #5 we say that it goes 8000 feet per minute

According to you, these are better specifications that an average joe can understand much more easily. After all, they can't be directly compared at all without a bunch of dimensional analysis. Which one of those cars goes the fastest? According to you, it should be easier for anyone to see which one goes the fastest.
post #196 of 256
Oh, sure I can answer. Do You want me to answer as You did (and as average-Joe would) or do You want me to answer professionally?

The first is easy. The one with the lowest rating would give the blackest blacks (if You're using Darins proposed methodology).

The second way (the professional one) is impossible, because I don't know max AL, I don't know how they respond to calibration (i.e. true on/off contrast ratio) and I don't know what lamp modes are available.
So, no, I can't answer any other way than the average-Joe way to that question, and neither can anyone else.

Also, I'll let that "dense" remark pass as some kind of description of my physical constitution.
post #197 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Duh. They have nothing to do with each other at all. They cannot be compared whatsoever.

You are basically saying that instead of stating that we should say how fast a car can go, we should choose a different method for every specific car so they can't be directly compared.

For one car, we can say it goes 100mph top speed.
For car #2 we say that it goes 2000 miles per day top speed.
For car #3 we say that it goes 2 km per minute.
For car #4 we say that it goes 150 feet per second.
For car #5 we say that it goes 8000 feet per minute

According to you, these are better specifications that an average joe can understand much more easily. After all, they can't be directly compared at all without a bunch of dimensional analysis. Which one of those cars goes the fastest? According to you, it should be easier for anyone to see which one goes the fastest.

No, I'm definitely not saying this.
I haven't even suggested how to calculate/specify black levels, it was Darin who did that.
You must really read more carefully.
The only suggestion I have done is to add "Base" to two values, but the computing of the black level value itself was proposed by Darin.
post #198 of 256
Quote:


That is irrelevant. If someone gave me a specification of on/off CR in whisper mode (which I have no idea what that means), then I could tell you. The fact that there isn't a spec listed for some specific product in some specific mode is completely irrelevant. You're just drawing the discussion off-topic again with a bunch of nonsense.

It seems like I need to explain a few things for You here.
The CR will not change very much when a different lamp mode is used. However the black and the white levels will, since less light will flow pass the panels (or equiv.).
I'm surprised that You don't know this and still accuse me for being an "idiot" and "dense".
You apparently haven't got the most basic clue to the problems being discussed here.
Have You even ever used a colorimeter?
post #199 of 256
Thread Starter 
Arioch... you should be a politician!

You seem to dance your way around the most simplest direct arguments, adding conditions etc.... just get straight to the point.

You are trying to tell us the current way of deducing black level performance is not practical for the average joe... correct?

Now show us how your specs have added any more clarity for average joe? Stop dancing around... and show us! It's really a simple question... how is adding base black level going to give average joe any additional information without confusing him.
post #200 of 256
Oh, ok... It won't be at all confusing for those who won't be doing any optimizations. For all those that merely buy a pj and a white 1.0 screen and just watch movies, it won't be a problem at all. And for the consumers that have no idea how to calculate black levels from AL/CR it will be a help in comparing.
Heck, even we would not have to bring up the calculator to get this rough idea when comparing. Most of the time, I can't do this math in my head, I need to use a calculator, so even for me it would be much easier to compare in for example a list with 10-20 pjs.

But for the mathematically gifted who can do this math in their head in all cases (and of coures also knows the formula) then there is no use for this spec.

And I'm not dancing and I'm actually not adding anything, it's You guys that keeps adding stuff like lamp modes, grey screens, high gain screens (you did that) etc.

As long as everyone knows that the specs only give a rough idea about the performance (just as the current specs actually do), then there shouldn't be a problem.
post #201 of 256
Thread Starter 
I still think as most others how have commented here, that on/off CR is enough, and actually gives you more helpful/useful information on its own, without the need to have a base black/white level spec. It is really a simple observation, that the more information you give average joe, the more he has a chance of misinterpreting or screwing up.

So is it fair to say that your point is that you are making it so that average joe doesn't need to do any math? Well, with on/off CR, you don't need math. You just need to compare two numbers, which one of is bigger than the other... why does it need to be easier than that?

As far as mentioning grey screens, gain, lamp modes, gamma, environment... blah blah blah, these are all consistent when it comes to using the standard specs or your proposed specs...

Quote:


As long as everyone knows that the specs only give a rough idea about the performance (just as the current specs actually do)

Are you now admitting that your specs don't really add any benefit to what the current specs achieve?
post #202 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

I still think as most others how have commented here, that on/off CR is enough, and actually gives you more helpful/useful information on its own, without the need to have a base black/white level spec. It is really a simple observation, that the more information you give average joe, the more he has a chance of misinterpreting or screwing up.

So is it fair to say that your point is that you are making it so that average joe doesn't need to do any math? Well, with on/off CR, you don't need math. You just need to compare two numbers, which one of is bigger than the other... why does it need to be easier than that?

As far as mentioning grey screens, gain, lamp modes, gamma, environment... blah blah blah, these are all consistent when it comes to using the standard specs or your proposed specs...


Are you now admitting that your specs don't really add any benefit to what the current specs achieve?

Well the problem is that You can have one projector with the higher CR but it still has poorer blacks than another with the lower CR.
And if average-Joe doesn't know the formula, then he'll probably go for the pj with the highest CR but he might end up with higher blacks then he would have gotten from the pj with lower CR.

For example:

PJ A
AL: 700
CR: 2000:1
Black level derived from the above: 0,35 AL

PJ B
AL: 1200
CR: 2500:1
Black level derived from the above: 0,48 AL

If a higher contrast ratio always would have meant that the blacks would be darker, then this surely wouldn't have been a problem at all.
But unfortunately for average-Joe, this is not the case.
post #203 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

Nin>> You are asking something and then answering it in the same post. None of what You say applies to what I have written. Try again...


IT DOES!!! Man open your eyes and see. The model you are talking about at WORTHLESS. It is all depending on the surroundings it is measured in and my example showed that the SAME projector will give VASTLY different black level figure. So it is not a good metod to use as a spec. But CR and lumens are good, because it is very easy to understand witch is going to have the best black level.

But, looks like you must be right, even if everyone else don't agree with you.
post #204 of 256
No, nin, It doesn't apply to what I have written. It does however apply to some stuff that Chris claims that I've written.
post #205 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

Oh, sure I can answer. Do You want me to answer as You did (and as average-Joe would) or do You want me to answer professionally?

The first is easy. The one with the lowest rating would give the blackest blacks (if You're using Darins proposed methodology).

The second way (the professional one) is impossible, because I don't know max AL, I don't know how they respond to calibration (i.e. true on/off contrast ratio) and I don't know what lamp modes are available.
So, no, I can't answer any other way than the average-Joe way to that question, and neither can anyone else.

Also, I'll let that "dense" remark pass as some kind of description of my physical constitution.

So basically, you are saying that using your specification, average joe would not know anything.

And a professional would find it impossible to use the the information conveyed by the number that you want.

According to what you say here, your number tells us either "nothing" or it tells us something that even a professional would be unable to utilize without a whole slew of other things.

Not even you can tell me anything about the projectors with your specification. The only way anyone can say anything is by picking the lower or higher number, but this is arbitrary and it is wrong because the numbers cannot be compared directly in any way. So basically, as I've been saying, your specification idea is completely and utterly useless.

Why don't you suggest a specification about image quality by using terminology relating to fruit varieties? For instance:
Projector A: contrast ratio of a banana
Projector B: contrast ratio of a papaya
Projector B: contrast ratio of an avocado

Because that would be about as meaningful as what you are proposing.
post #206 of 256
No, Chris, I'm not saying that.

I'm asking You what kind of answer You want, because if You want the educated answer I'll have to know about what CR the pjs will have when calibrated and what lamp modes are available and how much they lower the emission.
Without this information I can't even hope to get close to a serious assessment of which pj can give the lowest blacks.
You do understand this, right?

If You want the non-educated answer, like the one You gave, then I can do that, yes.
post #207 of 256
Quote:


I'm asking You what kind of answer You want, because if You want the educated answer I'll have to know about what CR the pjs will have when calibrated and what lamp modes are available and how much they lower the emission.
Without this information I can't even hope to get close to a serious assessment of which pj can give the lowest blacks.
You do understand this, right?

Yes I understand that, which is why I have been telling you this for many pages. Your specification tells us nothing. It is meaningless and cannot be compared to other number from other projectors. It is confusing. The specifications we have in terms of white level and on/off CR are much more effective and are comparable among different projectors. They are also very straightforward. Your specification idea does NONE of these things whatsoever. It is bananas.
post #208 of 256
arioch,

No offence but it is clear to everyone reading this and I think even to you that it is your lack of knowledge that is the problem here. You do not understand that black level is already covered in the CR spec. You do not understand the relationship between white and black and how it relates to black level. The CR tells you the black level period. You don't need to know anything else. A black level "spec" is meaningless and worthless.

Read what these people are telling you and get your ego out of the way. You're wrong not because you are misunderstood but because you clearly do not have a grasp on the issue. No need to go on pretending you do.
post #209 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch View Post

Well the problem is that You can have one projector with the higher CR but it still has poorer blacks than another with the lower CR.
And if average-Joe doesn't know the formula, then he'll probably go for the pj with the highest CR but he might end up with higher blacks then he would have gotten from the pj with lower CR.

For example:

PJ A
AL: 700
CR: 2000:1
Black level derived from the above: 0,35 AL

PJ B
AL: 1200
CR: 2500:1
Black level derived from the above: 0,48 AL

If a higher contrast ratio always would have meant that the blacks would be darker, then this surely wouldn't have been a problem at all.
But unfortunately for average-Joe, this is not the case.

I still don't think you get it now that you use that as your example. I would have chosen the one with the higher CR to get the best blacks... so yes, I would have chosen PJ B... because if I set it to have the same AL of 700 as PJ A, then black levels would have been lower.

Using your method, average joe would look at the base black level spec and choose PJ A... so you've just confused him. Should have left him to look at the on/off CR

SEE! Can't you see why your spec just adds confusion and no real new information!
post #210 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yes I understand that, which is why I have been telling you this for many pages. Your specification tells us nothing. It is meaningless and cannot be compared to other number from other projectors. It is confusing. The specifications we have in terms of white level and on/off CR are much more effective and are comparable among different projectors. They are also very straightforward. Your specification idea does NONE of these things whatsoever. It is bananas.

This is not unique for the alternative way. The same goes for the traditional way.
This is what You need to understand. However, the alternative way adds information that *could* be useful to some people. This is the people that just want to buy a pj and a screen and then be done with it. You act like those people doesn't exist and that everyone that buys a pj has inside information on which pj can be optimized the most.
Because You really need inside information to expand beyond the basic specifications, as You see from my example with the BenQ.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: CRT Projectors
This thread is locked  
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › AVS Contrast Results