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Why isn't DD+ being put on Blu-ray Releases?

post #1 of 27
1/11/07 at 5:43am
Thread Starter 
This has probably been asked/answered before, but I couldn't find it. Why haven't there been any Blu-ray releases with Dolby Digital Plus? It seems like every HD-DVD title has it, but we're stuck with Dolby Digital 5.1. Moan.
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post #2 of 27
1/11/07 at 7:35am
Thread Starter 
I've searched the internet trying to find an answer. All I could find was something about how DD+ is mandatory on HD-DVDs, but only optional on BDs. Does the Blu-ray Disc Assoc. think we'll be satisfied with a DD soundtrack?! PCM is great, but I want to hear DD+ for myself.
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post #3 of 27
1/11/07 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooskinneejs View Post

This has probably been asked/answered before, but I couldn't find it. Why haven't there been any Blu-ray releases with Dolby Digital Plus? It seems like every HD-DVD title has it, but we're stuck with Dolby Digital 5.1. Moan.

In a nutshell, there is no need for DD+ on Blu-ray. Click this post by Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs.
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post #4 of 27
1/11/07 at 9:08am
Thread Starter 
Interesting. Well, that explains why people on this board aren't complaining about the lack of DD+. I agree that PCM is great...but I wanted to know why it wasn't available. Thanks.
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post #5 of 27
1/11/07 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

I don't know why you want DD+ when you have PCM. PCM is better than DD+.

So then, PCM on a Blu-ray Disc would be better than DD on that same BD?

I noticed that the Descent BD has PCM & DD options - the DD option might have 6.1 sound but my 5 year old Sony ES receiver only does 5.1 so the 6.1 doesn't buy me anything.

I was wondering which audio I should pick for the best sound on my system and it sounds like PCM is the choice. Right?

Now how about if a BD has PCM & DTS? Which of those would be better?

Rob
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post #6 of 27
1/11/07 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by radckh View Post

So then, PCM on a Blu-ray Disc would be better than DD on that same BD?

I noticed that the Descent BD has PCM & DD options - the DD option might have 6.1 sound but my 5 year old Sony ES receiver only does 5.1 so the 6.1 doesn't buy me anything.

I was wondering which audio I should pick for the best sound on my system and it sounds like PCM is the choice. Right?

Now how about if a BD has PCM & DTS? Which of those would be better?

Rob

PCM is uncompressed, it is best option you can have.
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post #7 of 27
1/11/07 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by radckh View Post

So then, PCM on a Blu-ray Disc would be better than DD on that same BD?

I noticed that the Descent BD has PCM & DD options - the DD option might have 6.1 sound but my 5 year old Sony ES receiver only does 5.1 so the 6.1 doesn't buy me anything.

I was wondering which audio I should pick for the best sound on my system and it sounds like PCM is the choice. Right?

Now how about if a BD has PCM & DTS? Which of those would be better?

Rob

PCM is pure UNCOMPRESSED SOUND !!!

you have 3 best choices for TOP SOUND

- PCM
- DTS HD MASTER AUDIO (loosless compression, like zip on PC, you are not loosing any data)
- DolbyTrue HD (loosless compression, like zip on PC, you are not loosing any data)

all others like DD, DD+, DTS, DTS HD, all are compressed soundtracks, so you are loosing data.......

it is almost like to listen to DVD-AUDIO/CD and mp3

Marek
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post #8 of 27
1/11/07 at 12:12pm
Probably the same reason DTS-HD MA and PCM is hard to find on HD DVD

Looks to me like audio technologies are choosing sides in the format war too
...or maybe its just a coincidence.

Anyway, its one of the factors that drew me away from HD DVD
and has me purchasing more Blu-Ray titles now.

I prefer DTS over Dolby

My PS3 will De-Code and play all audio tracks, and has HDMI
vs.
XBOX 360+HD DVD only plays DD5.1 through digi/opt
....no matter what audio source is chosen on an HD DVD.

I'm stock piling all the DTS-HD MA and PCM titles
while patiently waiting for a new 1.3 HDMI / 1080p 7.1 Yamaha AVR
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post #9 of 27
1/11/07 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Probably the same reason DTS-HD MA and PCM is hard to find on HD DVD

Looks to me like audio technologies are choosing sides in the format war too
...or maybe its just a coincidence.

Anyway, its one of the factors that drew me away from HD DVD
and has me purchasing more Blu-Ray titles now.

DTS-HD MA hard to find on HD DVD?
Not for us in europe!
All StudioCanal titles have DTS-HD MA 5.1 track. There is at least 10 titles out now and more is coming in March (Terminator 2 )
PowerDVD decodes all the HD Audio formats so that's not an issue for me
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post #10 of 27
1/11/07 at 1:01pm
Check out the PQ Teir threads for HD DVD vs Blu-Ray

Only 8 HD DVD's listed with DTS (MA)

and of those only 3 that are not imports

Me thinks the DTS guys favorrite color is Blu

PCM not available at all for HD DVD, they have THD instead I guess
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post #11 of 27
1/11/07 at 1:06pm
It is my understanding that Dolby Digital on Blu-ray is the same as Dolby Digital-Plus on HD DVD. The only difference being the name (for marketing purposes HD DVD-wise).
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post #12 of 27
1/11/07 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Check out the PQ Teir threads for HD DVD vs Blu-Ray

Only 8 HD DVD's listed with DTS (MA)

and of those only 3 that are not imports

Me thinks the DTS guys favorrite color is Blu

PCM not available at all for HD DVD, they have THD instead I guess

Fox is the only studio putting out DTS-MA titles in the US at the moment. The reason there are no PCM tracks on HD-DVD is that all players decode Dolby TrueHD which once it's decoded IS PCM but it takes up less space. Why put an uncompressed PCM track on when you can put a lossless track on? HD-DVD doesn't have gigs to burn for that stuff. For some reason the BD studios like to waste the BD's space with things like LPCM.

DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless codecs and one doesn't sound better than the other. The main difference is that a DTS-MA stream can play through an optical connection and be picked up as a high bitrate lossy DTS track for those not equipped to play the lossless audio. With Dolby TrueHD this isn't possible and the studio needs to have an additional lossy DD5.1 track for those who can't access the Dolby TrueHD track.
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post #13 of 27
1/11/07 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by polyh3dron View Post

Fox is the only studio putting out DTS-MA titles in the US at the moment. The reason there are no PCM tracks on HD-DVD is that all players decode Dolby TrueHD which once it's decoded IS PCM but it takes up less space. Why put an uncompressed PCM track on when you can put a lossless track on? HD-DVD doesn't have gigs to burn for that stuff. For some reason the BD studios like to waste the BD's space with things like LPCM.

DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless codecs and one doesn't sound better than the other. The main difference is that a DTS-MA stream can play through an optical connection and be picked up as a high bitrate lossy DTS track for those not equipped to play the lossless audio. With Dolby TrueHD this isn't possible and the studio needs to have an additional lossy DD5.1 track for those who can't access the Dolby TrueHD track.


Why waste space with LPCM?

Because there is no player and no receiver that can currently decode lossless from DTS HD-MA, perhaps? Because even when a receiver arrives that can, there will be few with it? And they'll be expensive?

And I think the more people enjoy LPCM than an extra feature on the making of noses for the latest latex mask of your favorite movie. I say do away with bonus features altogether and maximize the codecs on the disc.
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post #14 of 27
1/11/07 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbh View Post

All StudioCanal titles have DTS-HD MA 5.1 track. There is at least 10 titles out now and more is coming in March (Terminator 2 )
PowerDVD decodes all the HD Audio formats so that's not an issue for me

DTS HD Master Audio: The Blu-ray version is ≠ to the HD-DVD version. The BD version max data rate is 6.5 Mbps higher.
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post #15 of 27
1/11/07 at 6:28pm
I dont know what the specs are for DD+
but found this on the DTS site:



... wish they could have used a larger font
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post #16 of 27
1/11/07 at 6:32pm
So PCM is basically currently the BD of HD-DVD's TrueHD?
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post #17 of 27
1/11/07 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

So PCM is basically currently the BD of HD-DVD's TrueHD?

Except PCM on BD is far more common than TrueHD is on HD DVD.
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post #18 of 27
1/11/07 at 7:39pm
Benes has an excellent sticky which lists Blu-ray titles and their audio fidelity.

Quote:
PCM is uncompressed, it is best option you can have.

CD sound is uncompressed PCM too, but that doesn't mean it's the best option you have.

You've got to look at the fidelity of the recording. Compressed 24/48 sound can be noticeably better than 16/48 uncompressed if provided a sufficient bitrate. According to DTS, their lossy DTS-HD High Resolution format (3Mbps for 5.1 24/48) noticeably exceeds the quality of 16/48 LPCM tracks.
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post #19 of 27
1/11/07 at 8:16pm
Universal titles on HD DVD use 1.5mbps DD+ which is obviously superior than 640kbps DD or DD+. Their audio and video is both excellent.
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post #20 of 27
1/11/07 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post

Universal titles on HD DVD use 1.5mbps DD+ which is obviously superior than 640kbps DD or DD+. Their audio and video is both excellent.

Nice one.

We are all perfectly aware that Universal currently does not release on BD and that the "audio and video is excellent" (what does this thread have to do with video anyway?) This has nothing to do with the OPs question, and is a nice little poke/reminder which is very immature and un-necessary on your part.
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post #21 of 27
1/11/07 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post

Nice one.

We are all perfectly aware that Universal currently does not release on BD and that the "audio and video is excellent" (what does this thread have to do with video anyway?) This has nothing to do with the OPs question, and is a nice little poke/reminder which is very immature and un-necessary on your part.

Paramount is a more appropriate example. They use DD+ 1.5Mbps tracks on a number of HD-DVD titles, but for some reason, they stick 640Kbps on the Blu-ray version.

Hopefully, Paramount will begin to release its BD titles with LPCM, higher-bitrate DD+, or some variation of DTS-HD in the near future.
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post #22 of 27
1/11/07 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Hopefully, Paramount will begin to release its BD titles with LPCM, higher-bitrate DD+, or some variation of DTS-HD in the near future.

Regarding DD+ bit rates, Roger stated in that same thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Blu-ray is using 640 kbps, but it is DD by definition. HD DVD has the option of running with higher bitrates, and we've seen that used on Universal titles. It is not necessary in our view to use even 1 Mbps until 7.1-ch is available, but it's their choice to make, and it certainly will not hurt the sound. You may rightly ask if we already reach 7.1 with 1.5 Mbps, then what's the point of a 3 Mbps capability. Well, that's the capacity we'll tap if the format opens the doors to more channels in future. There can be no more capacity allocated to audio down the road on HD DVD, so we'll have to live within that limit, regardless of the addition of more channels. In Blu-ray, the first 7.1 channels can use up to 1.7 Mbps (again, more than really necessary), and as additional frames of channels are added, each can have an additional dollop of data, about 1 Mbps, reaching its max at 4.7 Mbps.

He also explains that 5.1 DD+ on BD is impossible. DD+ on BD is for the extra channels.
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post #23 of 27
1/11/07 at 9:42pm
Quote:


He also explains that 5.1 DD+ on BD is impossible. DD+ on BD is for the extra channels.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that Paramount should incorporate higher-quality tracks on their BD titles. If they can't do that with DD+, they should do it with something else.
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post #24 of 27
1/11/07 at 10:49pm
HDMI 1.2a receivers can take advantage of uncompressed PCM sound.
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post #25 of 27
1/11/07 at 11:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruson View Post

HDMI 1.2a receivers can take advantage of uncompressed PCM sound.

also HDMI 1.1 receivers...

Marek
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post #26 of 27
1/14/07 at 8:30am
Quote:


Looks to me like audio technologies are choosing sides in the format war too
...or maybe its just a coincidence.

PCM is not viable for HD DVDE because of the disk size and bandwidth limits. DTS MA can be on HD DVD and it is in Europe (studio canal) but the US studios decided on DTHD because the Toshiba player can only handle DTHD.
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post #27 of 27
1/14/07 at 8:31am
Quote:


I dont know what the specs are for DD+

here is Dolby

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