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My Client's impressions of the Rotary sub demo.

post #1 of 406
Thread Starter 
At first he did not know what to make of the sound, then as he left the room and came back he began to like it more and more. We would have to send the mechanical drawings of the home to Bruce as anything else going into the attic would certainly impact the architecture and HVAC system. For awhile I thought he was going to say no. Then after about half hour he agreed with me that we should try implementing it.

He then asked Bruce's right hand man how many of these things they had installed, to which he replied two. My client then turned around to me and said, Peter you are a genious.
post #2 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

At first he did not know what to make of the sound, then as he left the room and came back he began to like it more and more. We would have to send the mechanical drawings of the home to Bruce as anything else going into the attic would certainly impact the architecture and HVAC system. For awhile I thought he was going to say no. Then after about half hour he agreed with me that we should try implementing it.

He then asked Bruce's right hand man how many of these things they had installed, to which he replied two. My client then turned around to me and said, Peter you are a genious.

I wonder if they count tzucc's installation as one or two.

After all, there are two RTWs in tzucc's theater.

I bet they do have another customer besides tzucc..
post #3 of 406
Thread Starter 
It looks like I have two installs going in in Miami later this year. Keith Yates apparently has one. I told Bruce, their "selling like hotcakes..." He said I wish.
post #4 of 406
This to me is an product looking for an application. Their own demo showed that there is no reason for it to exist. There is zero software to support it. This has to be the dumbest way to blow $18,000, IMO.

I have heard that the government bought one. Seems it may be used to drive the enemy nuts. I hope they have a way to control the back wave as it is just as loud front or rear.
post #5 of 406
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

This to me is an product looking for an application. Their own demo showed that there is no reason for it to exist. There is zero software to support it.


Liar. Just about every Blue Ray and HD DVD has plenty of 0 to 20 action, Casablanca, Mutiny on the Bounty, Forbidden Planet, and Robin Hood being the exception .
post #6 of 406
Allen Fleener says:

Quote:


There is zero software to support it.

.

Surprisingly, this is not so. Many movie DVD's have acoustic energy between 2 and 20 Hz that usually is not heard because conventional subs just can't play it. During the demo at tzucc's this was very evident. We were unable, however, to find a commercial and conventional music seedee that went below about 22 Hz although we tried some organ works.

Tony commissioned some electronic music and had some other electronic music--Cosmic Hippo and Bottomless Bass were the names of the albums as I recall--that went below 20 Hz as I recall.

I was sceptical at first, too, but "hearing is believing".
post #7 of 406
Quote:


Their own demo showed that there is no reason for it to exist.

Well I wasn't at the demo you attended, Allen; and indeed it could have been poorly set up. But that's not what I've heard from other accounts of the demo.

The demo given at tzucc's house, on the other hand, certainly demonstrated its benefits both for movie and music material. There is a decent amount of content to exploit it, though to be fair there is plenty of sub-20Hz filtering going on out there, too.

As for "the dumbest way to blow $18K"---well, there's a lot of things bandied about in this forum that qualify for that.... IMO Nobody who accepts spending five figures on high-end cables with fraudulently pseudoscientific marketing can rightly criticize a purchase such as this with both audible and measurable effect. Heck, we even did a crude DBT at tzucc's demo.
post #8 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

This to me is an product looking for an application. Their own demo showed that there is no reason for it to exist. There is zero software to support it. This has to be the dumbest way to blow $18,000, IMO.

I have heard that the government bought one. Seems it may be used to drive the enemy nuts. I hope they have a way to control the back wave as it is just as loud front or rear.

Fleener, were you at the rotary woofer CES demo? If that demo did nothing for you, then I understand why you are in the video, and not the audio side of the business. My advice is stay there, your ears don't work.
post #9 of 406
btw, Bruce had the CES demo a USGS earthquake tremor signal converted to a WAV file... he played that in the small room driven by one TRW and it was pretty impressive.

BTW, I would add this advice to all future TRW customers. Make sure the backwave is underneath your seats... you will get all the acoustic plus what I discovered to be additive to the experience - the mechanical movement of the backwave wall or floor... I was leaning against Bruce's demo room wall, and it was moving me back and forth 1/4 Inch or so and that movement plus the acoustic sensation made that earthquake feel much more real than just the sound... pretty neat effect. I know that my garage floor (media room ceiling) moved noticably during the TRW demos.
post #10 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

It looks like I have two installs going in in Miami later this year. Keith Yates apparently has one. I told Bruce, their "selling like hotcakes..." He said I wish.

Keep going with revolutionary stuff like the TRW and your curved screen, and don't let the small thinkers deter you. I'd much more likely refer any high end friends to you than to the minimally visioned.
post #11 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

It looks like I have two installs going in in Miami later this year. Keith Yates apparently has one. I told Bruce, their "selling like hotcakes..." He said I wish.

Crazy, two in Miami. I wonder if the future owners would be willing to have an HT meet to show off, er, demonstrate the rotary subs. (Alot of us South Florida guys know each other and routinely get together and share tips and knowledge, they may be interested)
post #12 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

btw, Bruce had the CES demo a USGS earthquake tremor signal converted to a WAV file... he played that in the small room driven by one TRW and it was pretty impressive.

BTW, I would add this advice to all future TRW customers. Make sure the backwave is underneath your seats... you will get all the acoustic plus what I discovered to be additive to the experience - the mechanical movement of the backwave wall or floor... I was leaning against Bruce's demo room wall, and it was moving me back and forth 1/4 Inch or so and that movement plus the acoustic sensation made that earthquake feel much more real than just the sound... pretty neat effect. I know that my garage floor (media room ceiling) moved noticably during the TRW demos.


Tony,
I never considered that. Mine will be vented to the crawlspace under my HT. That will surely be an added benefit that I didn't think of. Thanks!
post #13 of 406
Lucky. GIven the above 20Hz bass performance in your room, I will come to envy your sound, I am almost sure of it.
Make sure to get that floor mechanical coupling in... again, I think it makes a huge difference.
post #14 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

Lucky. GIven the above 20Hz bass performance in your room, I will come to envy your sound, I am almost sure of it.

Me too! (As if I did not already envy Jeff's set up )
post #15 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Well I wasn't at the demo you attended, Allen; and indeed it could have been poorly set up. But that's not what I've heard from other accounts of the demo.

The demo given at tzucc's house, on the other hand, certainly demonstrated its benefits both for movie and music material. There is a decent amount of content to exploit it, though to be fair there is plenty of sub-20Hz filtering going on out there, too.

As for "the dumbest way to blow $18K"---well, there's a lot of things bandied about in this forum that qualify for that.... IMO Nobody who accepts spending five figures on high-end cables with fraudulently pseudoscientific marketing can rightly criticize a purchase such as this with both audible and measurable effect. Heck, we even did a crude DBT at tzucc's demo.

Congratulations, Michael. You are becoming an "audiophile". Pretty soon you and ValhallaPC will be sipping beers together and making power cords. HA!!!
post #16 of 406
I'm offended, Steve Didn't you see that we actually did a double-blind test?

Seriously though---I was not defending spending >$10K on speaker cables; I was only saying that someone who does ought to be careful about labeling a five-figure audio purchase "dumb" when its effect is provably audible.
post #17 of 406
A couple of months ago, I chatted with Bruce about one of these for my room.

After a long discussion, my home had no place for the sub to pressurize.

Bruce really tried to make some suggestions but in the end the large space this rotary requires and the inability to keep it from sounding off into other parts of the house (or neighborhood) made it impossible to implement in my situation. My theater is a on a slab as a separate addition to my house and you really need an adjacent space or basement for this to work..

If I ever build again, I will call Bruce prior. If you are building and a theater is in your plans, I would certainly consider this device. If only I'd known about this 6 years ago when we took our home's renovation.....
post #18 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

I'm offended, Steve Didn't you see that we actually did a double-blind test?

Seriously though---I was not defending spending >$10K on speaker cables; I was only saying that someone who does ought to be careful about labeling a five-figure audio purchase "dumb" when its effect is provably audible.

Notice, I didn't call anyone dumb for buying this. And I must say that I agree with you re lets stop hypocrisy. Mebbe I'll start selling "Hypocrisy Cables". Sounds like something made in the time of the HBO show "Rome".

It would sure be a cool demo for our local AzAVClub. I'd feel it.
post #19 of 406
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

Crazy, two in Miami. I wonder if the future owners would be willing to have an HT meet to show off, er, demonstrate the rotary subs. (Alot of us South Florida guys know each other and routinely get together and share tips and knowledge, they may be interested)

Maybe I can disguise you as an installer with Eric Glo, but that would be it, you would be looked down as hired help by the owners if for some reason they were there.
post #20 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

This to me is an product looking for an application. Their own demo showed that there is no reason for it to exist. There is zero software to support it. This has to be the dumbest way to blow $18,000, IMO.

Allen,

This is NOT so!!! There IS content < 20 HZ on DVDs and in movie soundtracks.

When Bruce Thigpen did his demo in forum member, and now rotary subwoofer owner, tzucc's
theater, there was a microphone hooked up to a spectrum analyzer. We could SEE the spectral
content of the sound produced, as well as FEEL it.

For example, one of the most impressive examples was the cannon battle between the Archeron
and the H.M.S. Surprise in the movie "Master and Commander". Those cannon shots as
reproduced by the rotary subwoofer reminded me of when I was a graduate student at MIT and
was on the banks of the Charles River on July 4 when the Massachusetts National Guard
test fired the howitzers that would be used to do the cannon shots for the Boston Pops tradition
of playing the "1812 Overture" to celebrate July 4th.

Perhaps you are also unaware of the fact, that sound can not be finite simultaneously in both
the frequency and temporal domains. Because of that, ALL musical instruments actually do
have content in the < 20 Hz regime.

At the demo of the final installation of the rotary subwoofer in tzucc's theater; audio maven
Peter Montcrief stated he believes the rotary subwoofer ushers in a new realm of musical
accuracy; since previous sound reproduction systems didn't deal with the < 20 Hz regime.

As one who has actually heard the rotary subwoofer, it is definitely NOT a waste of money.
post #21 of 406
I wondered how long it would take for Morbius & his trademark capitalizations to show up.
post #22 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

Allen,

This is NOT so!!! There IS content < 20 HZ on DVDs and in movie soundtracks.

When Bruce Thigpen did his demo in forum member, and now rotary subwoofer owner, tzucc's
theater, there was a microphone hooked up to a spectrum analyzer. We could SEE the spectral
content of the sound produced, as well as FEEL it.

For example, one of the most impressive examples was the cannon battle between the Archeron
and the H.M.S. Surprise in the movie "Master and Commander". Those cannon shots as
reproduced by the rotary subwoofer reminded me of when I was a graduate student at MIT and
was on the banks of the Charles River on July 4 when the Massachusetts National Guard
test fired the howitzers that would be used to do the cannon shots for the Boston Pops tradition
of playing the "1812 Overture" to celebrate July 4th.

Perhaps you are also unaware of the fact, that sound can not be finite simultaneously in both
the frequency and temporal domains. Because of that, ALL musical instruments actually do
have content in the < 20 Hz regime.

At the demo of the final installation of the rotary subwoofer in tzucc's theater; audio maven
Peter Montcrief stated he believes the rotary subwoofer ushers in a new realm of musical
accuracy; since previous sound reproduction systems didn't deal with the < 20 Hz regime.

As one who has actually heard the rotary subwoofer, it is definitely NOT a waste of money.

Another subjectivist. COOL!!!

Seriously, when you listen to stuff, there is of course the psychological question as well as do you really know what you are hearing re frequencies, etc.? So being able to do a demo both subjectively and objectively at the same time is the best way to do it. Very nice. Now if it measured better but didn't sound and feel better, that would be another story. But if it measures and feels better, how can one argue with that????
post #23 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

After a long discussion, my home had no place for the sub to pressurize.

Then you must relinquish your King of Bass handle. You are now known as merely a Duke of Bass.
post #24 of 406
I think he might actually be the baron of bass.
post #25 of 406
Jeff,

You need a generator. If you get a good one it needs a large space and can be built into a space (including underground) to reduce noice. The sub also happens to needs a space to vent to. Hint hint.
post #26 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

Then you must relinquish your King of Bass handle. You are now known as merely a Duke of Bass.

tzucc,

Maybe he's the Earl of Bass.

For that matter, whatever happened to the Duke of Earl?
post #27 of 406
I made it over to see the Rotary Sub and it was most impressive. I'm not sure when Allen saw the demo; but it was highly effective in the sub 40 Hz range. I don't know where it was crossed over. When I was by, they were running some pipe organ music with tremendous acoustic energy with the organist having his foot on the far left pedal.

There is quite a bit more material in movies with < 20Hz content then there is music content. But the "ease" for lack of a better word in low frequency production was quite amazing.

By the way, the back room of the suite where the rotary woofer was installed was equally enlightening as you could see/hear the vanes doing the work. It was quite a demo; and I'm sorry I didn't bump into any AVSers when I was by ETs room.

Here's a photo I shot of the Rotary Woofer in use:



No, I'm not a professional photographer and this photo certainly does show it.

Also, Bruce Thigpen is one of the nicest gentlemen I've met in the business.


Cheers,
post #28 of 406
My only experience thus far was at CEDIA but watching the ceiling tiles floating was very interesting. Yes Bruce is warm,bright and a man who seems very at ease with his life.

If Jeff is the Baron of Bass could I get Count Bassey ?

Art
post #29 of 406
Art,

Well it's certain that no one will confuse you with Shirley Bassey

Cheers,
post #30 of 406
I saw / heard the demo at CEDIA 2006. I stopped by and asked if it was the same at CES and was told it was basically the same so I did not want to waste their time or mine.

While the demo did show some <20 hz signals the connection between the low freq and the video was broken. Some girl walking across the floor and 8hz going off. This to me was not what happens in life. Perhaps it is so cool that the sub went off to you guys hence you had to have it but for me it just was unbelievable and totally got in the way of the movie.

Now if he can tie the sound to the action and have it be believable then you might have something.

Just because you can do a thing does not, in and of it self, justify it being done.

I am sorry that some here are so thin skinned (CINERAMAX and tzucc) , and had to call me a liar and doubt if I can hear or not. Come on boys, Grow up! You can handle the fact the the Emperor has no clothes can't you?

Geez guys get a life. You do not know me or have even spoken with me over the phone.

While soaking your customers may be your way of life, I on the other hand look after mine. I try to justify every penny I spend of theirs. I stand by my first post, this product IMO is looking for an application. Not ready for prime time also IMO.

I would gain far better results by acoustically treating the room which most rooms need desperately. If your customers have done everything they could do at an extremely high level and still want to pound $18K down a rat hole then be my guest. I would have to tell them to hang onto their $$$ and wait for next year. IMO, Which I am Allowed to have even if you Cool-Aide drinkers think otherwise.
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