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Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 9

post #241 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Scott View Post

OK. I'm completely lost now. My plasma has no way to adjust gamma directly. All I can adjust are brightness, contrast, and RGB cuts and drives from the service menu. How do I bring my gamma curve up to 2.2 using HCFR? Why do I need to change the reference gamma in HCFR? I thought it had a default of 2.2. That's where the dotted line is drawn on the graph. My measured gamma is a yellow line that averages 2.0

Also, what is the pink plottle line on the RGB levels histogram?

Yes, default value is 2.22, but the program has a few gamma calculation methods. Gamma with black compensation and Camera gamma(Std offset) are the ones to use. I personally read with Camera gamma.

If your display has no controls for gamma, then you'll adjust with the brightness/contrast controls. You may also check to see if your set has different light output(overall brightness) settings and select the easiest to your eyes.

The pink plotted line is the amount of error from the D65 reference(color temp). You want to calibrate it to under 4.
post #242 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Dont bother looking at the AVG so much that will show up above the greyscale results, that can be a bit misleading, its like saying..I make $0 a year and you make $100,000, the avg of the 2 is $50,000 - which is as stated misleading. You actually need to look at the gamma tracking in Logarthic mode, click on Gamma icon and right click the pattern and select log pattern (including RED,BLUE, GREEN), and you will see that it tracks okay from the front and the back but the middle has some eradict behavior, so Im not sure how much you can do, but try increasing gamma on the Sony one click up and re-run it to see how it behaves and see if it moves up. On some sets, especially with some of the front projectors, you not only have gamma settings but you have them for high, med, low control (individually)

Thanks, I had tried different gamma settings in the user controls. Unfortunately, it just moved the whole logarithmic plot down to about 1.8 avg, but the plotlines were nearly identical. I didn't save that version of my settings though. I MAY be able to smooth it out using the UGAM in the service menu, but I am a bit leary of messing in there. I have done that in my older sony CRT, but I don't think I'm allowed to mess with anything else right now. My Tivo's hard drive just died and my wife isn't letting me spend the money to get a new one, so I have to move to the HR20. That means, I'll only be able to mess with the DVD input until I can get my hands on a new harddrive without her knowing

Dug
post #243 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Bester View Post

Thanks, I had tried different gamma settings in the user controls. Unfortunately, it just moved the whole logarithmic plot down to about 1.8 avg, but the plotlines were nearly identical. I didn't save that version of my settings though. I MAY be able to smooth it out using the UGAM in the service menu, but I am a bit leary of messing in there. I have done that in my older sony CRT, but I don't think I'm allowed to mess with anything else right now. My Tivo's hard drive just died and my wife isn't letting me spend the money to get a new one, so I have to move to the HR20. That means, I'll only be able to mess with the DVD input until I can get my hands on a new harddrive without her knowing

Dug

UGAM is the setting I use to use for gamma tracking on my old SOny wt500, nothing to be leary about making a change there..Sony's are one of the easiest service menus to navigate..
post #244 of 3872
Quote:


Also, yes your set has green push but it may not be as bad as it looks. The Spyder2 seems to read green and yellow a bit more oversaturated compared to better sensors

HDholic,

What about the DTP94? I have a panasonic plasma and am getting green push with basic AVIA cal (global settings) Is this sensor biased toward green/ yellow?

Jude
post #245 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishon View Post

HDholic,

What about the DTP94? I have a panasonic plasma and am getting green push with basic AVIA cal (global settings) Is this sensor biased toward green/ yellow?

Jude

The Panasonic plasmas do have green push. I get the same thing using a Spyder2 on my set. The green is way outside the CIE chart. Others who have posted their CIE plots have the same oversaturated green. Fortunately it's not really objectionable. At least skin tones look natural.
post #246 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Yes, default value is 2.22, but the program has a few gamma calculation methods. Gamma with black compensation and Camera gamma(Std offset) are the ones to use. I personally read with Camera gamma.

If your display has no controls for gamma, then you'll adjust with the brightness/contrast controls. You may also check to see if your set has different light output(overall brightness) settings and select the easiest to your eyes.

The pink plotted line is the amount of error from the D65 reference(color temp). You want to calibrate it to under 4.

Thanks. I'll make sure it's set to Camera Gamma and do the measurements again. Like I said before, I find the picture to be VERY bright with the current settings. If I have to push the contrast higher to get a gamma of 2.22 I think I'll live with a slightly lower gamma setting.
post #247 of 3872
I posted this to the software thread, but they suggested I might try here so...

Ok. I'm confused. I'm trying to calibrate my Hitachi LCD RPTV with HCFR and an Eye One. I've set the brightness/contrast with Getgray (great disk; just the moving brightness and contrast screens are worth the price of admission) and I'm addressing the CIE chart. My TV has phase and gain controls for the primaries and secondaries of the color decoder, so I've used that and the 100% color windows to fix my color space. I've been able to get all primary and secondary colors pretty much spot on. But when I check my results with the color/tint display and the DVE blue filter, it's nowhere close. I've tried both the 75% and 100% windows, as well as rec 601 and rec 709 standards. Nothing passes the color/tint test screen; rec 601 looks a lot better than 709, so I'm sticking with that, but the most noticeable thing about even 601 is that blue is way too dark.

Isn't it supposed to be at least close even before I attempt to clean up my gray scale? What don't I understand here?
Roy
post #248 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishon View Post

HDholic,

What about the DTP94? I have a panasonic plasma and am getting green push with basic AVIA cal (global settings) Is this sensor biased toward green/ yellow?

Jude

Most digital displays will have oversaturated green. No doubt about that, but the spyder2 makes it look worse. See this comparison and you'll see what I mean.
post #249 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Scott View Post

Thanks. I'll make sure it's set to Camera Gamma and do the measurements again. Like I said before, I find the picture to be VERY bright with the current settings. If I have to push the contrast higher to get a gamma of 2.22 I think I'll live with a slightly lower gamma setting.

To raise gamma # you will lower contrast and brightness as needed(dimmer picture). It works in the opposite . As to lower gamma # you'll raise contrast / brightness(brighter picture).

Remember, this is if you don't have gamma controls. Also make sure to use Logarithmic mode instead of the usual curve. The goal is to have 2.22 on every point.
post #250 of 3872
Quote:
Just did my 1st gray scale calibration on a 42" 600U panny. I used the spyder2 in lcd mode with the filter installed and the getgray dvd. The rgb levels look pretty good but how do I bring the green in the CIE diagram into alignment? Any feedback would be appreciated.

Scott,

Did you ever figure out a way to minimize / mitigate green push on your panasonic th42px600u? I'm thinking about using a scaler, but not sure how to proceed. Ordered the service manual today for my panasonic th50px600u.

Post Avia Basic Cal file on Panasonic th50px600u attached.
Picture +15
Brightness +8
Color -3
Tint -6
Sharpness 0
Color Temp Warm
C.A.T.S. Off
Video NR Off
MPEG NR Off
Black Level Light

Any suggestions on how to proceed... DHolic? etc..

Thanks Guys!

Jude
post #251 of 3872
Sorry guys... looking for the button to press to attach my zipped file?... forgive my ignorance..and thx 4 ur help
post #252 of 3872
I posted this to the software thread, but they suggested I might try here so...

Ok. I'm confused. I'm trying to calibrate my Hitachi LCD RPTV with HCFR and an Eye One. I've set the brightness/contrast with Getgray (great disk; just the moving brightness and contrast screens are worth the price of admission) and I'm addressing the CIE chart. My TV has phase and gain controls for the primaries and secondaries of the color decoder, so I've used that and the 100% color windows to fix my color space. I've been able to get all primary and secondary colors pretty much spot on. But when I check my results with the color/tint display and the DVE blue filter, it's nowhere close. I've tried both the 75% and [/quote]100% windows, as well as rec 601 and rec 709 standards. Nothing passes the color/tint test screen; rec 601 looks a lot better than 709, so I'm sticking with that, but the most noticeable thing about even 601 is that blue is way too dark.

Isn't it supposed to be at least close even before I attempt to clean up my gray scale? What don't I understand here?
Roy[quote]

Roy,

I agree. There's something funny going on here. As long as the same ambient light conditions exist at time of basic calibration AND colorimeter checks, it is logical to expect that results would be similar. I'm thinking there's error inherent in your sensor (I have the DTP94 and am getting a similar result) or light contamination or both.

The accuracy of these consumer level sensors is in question.
post #253 of 3872
I've been using Calman and the dtp94. We (myself and the calman team) spent alot of time making sure the software was giving accurate results with the dtp94. we cross-checked with other software (standalone test app and toolcrib from x-rite).

In my case (mits 73905), primaries and secondarys are close and the decoder checks (using the filters) are also fine. How far off are you, i.e. I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing passes the color/tint test screen". it's not pass/fail, it's do the color's match.

color decoder should be independent of grayscale.

you should use windowed patterns on these displays for all measurements (colors and grayscale).

if you're player is outputing HD colorspace (709), then you should use 709, otherwise 601 is correct. My oppo 970 is outputing 709.

I've done enough testing/comparing to trust my sensor. I think one of you guys who's having an issue should compare calman and/or colorfacts to hcfr. that test would speak to where the errors might be.

jeff
post #254 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Most digital displays will have oversaturated green. No doubt about that, but the spyder2 makes it look worse. See this comparison and you'll see what I mean.

I wouldn't take that test seriously. Different software (HCFR) was used for the Spyder2 than the other 2 sensors. Who's to say the software isn't to blame or the settings for the sensor were not correct Do the sensor readings again using the same software then I will believe any differences.
post #255 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

To raise gamma # you will lower contrast and brightness as needed(dimmer picture). It works in the opposite . As to lower gamma # you'll raise contrast / brightness(brighter picture).

Remember, this is if you don't have gamma controls. Also make sure to use Logarithmic mode instead of the usual curve. The goal is to have 2.22 on every point.

Ok. That would be the reason why I'm not getting my gamma correct. Thanks. I will try it again.
post #256 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

if you're player is outputing HD colorspace (709), then you should use 709, otherwise 601 is correct. My oppo 970 is outputing 709.

Well, there are two factors here. I've got a Denon 3910, and I've no idea what it's outputting. 601 looks less wrong than 709, so I presume it's SD. The other factor is that the color decoder changes I make are applied to all inputs, so if I expect to be able to fix the DVD player I have to accept those same changes (or none at all) for cable (which I'd expect to be 601).

Tom Huff's comparisons of the Eye One and other sensors looks pretty good, so unless mine is defective I've no reason to suspect it. To me, the most likely problem is user error, since I really have no deep understanding of what I'm doing. That's why I'm here. I'd love to compare with calman or colorfacts, but I think I've already sunk enough money into something that is probably going to turn into hiring an ISF calibrator in the end anyway.
Roy
post #257 of 3872
anyone what to give a noob a clue as to how to attach a file? (I feel so ashamed ... I'm embarassed to even ask... I would like to post my chc file so you guys can tell me what you think... thnx
post #258 of 3872
Here'a another theoretical question. My TV's service menu has gains and cuts for RBG, and it also has an array of 33 RGB settings for gamma. They're labelled 0 through 32, and when you try to adjust them the TV turns to a gray which I presume is the value selected by the current gamma setting you're adjusting. So I'd think I could just crank through those one at a time while doing continuous measuring and dial right into gamma 2.22.

Does that seem like a reasonable approach? Unless trying to adjust one of the 33 intervals gets outside of the range of the setting, would there be any reason to touch the RGB gains and cuts? What should be my strategy in setting the initial gains/cuts to make it most likely that I won't run out of gamma setting range? Anyone have an applicable procedure to share or am I breaking new ground?

The real question is, since it has 32 steps rather than 10/20, it's not going to match up to a particular IRE from the test windows on the DVD. Will HCFR still be able to tell me how to match my gamma curve to an arbitrary luminance? (If that's the right terminology.)
Roy
post #259 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishon View Post

anyone what to give a noob a clue as to how to attach a file? (I feel so ashamed ... I'm embarassed to even ask... I would like to post my chc file so you guys can tell me what you think... thnx

You cant post a CHC file, you need to ZIP the file..use something like winzip
post #260 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

Here'a another theoretical question. My TV's service menu has gains and cuts for RBG, and it also has an array of 33 RGB settings for gamma. They're labelled 0 through 32, and when you try to adjust them the TV turns to a gray which I presume is the value selected by the current gamma setting you're adjusting. So I'd think I could just crank through those one at a time while doing continuous measuring and dial right into gamma 2.22.

Does that seem like a reasonable approach? Unless trying to adjust one of the 33 intervals gets outside of the range of the setting, would there be any reason to touch the RGB gains and cuts? What should be my strategy in setting the initial gains/cuts to make it most likely that I won't run out of gamma setting range? Anyone have an applicable procedure to share or am I breaking new ground?
Roy

Is this a CRT??
post #261 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

I've done enough testing/comparing to trust my sensor. I think one of you guys who's having an issue should compare calman and/or colorfacts to hcfr. that test would speak to where the errors might be.

jeff

I interpret this to mean that you have compared ColorHCFR to calman and found a difference in the results. I use the DTP94 also. Could you elaborate on this?
post #262 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Is this a CRT??

Rear projection LCD - Hitachi Director's Series 60VX915.
post #263 of 3872
Thread Starter 
Question on gamma.....again. What option should I be using (camera, display, etc) and what should be the reference. With my current settings it looks like I'm closest to a camera gamma of 2.5 or a display gamma of 2.2. This is on RP CRT. What I don't like is that depending on the mode, camera or display, the ends of my curve change positions. Using display gamma the low IRE are low and high IRE are high. The opposite is true if I switch to camera gamma mode. So I don't know which way to go.
post #264 of 3872
I use Camera 2.22. Using display with my RP CRT ends up too dark at the low end. Camera is also similar to what the other program that I use calculates with, hence why it's my default.
post #265 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orwellflash View Post

I interpret this to mean that you have compared ColorHCFR to calman and found a difference in the results. I use the DTP94 also. Could you elaborate on this?


I couldn't get the results to match between HCFR and calman. calman agreed with the standalone app and toolcrib. So HCFR was an outlier. It's not unreasonable to suspect I did something wrong or had a bad setting somewhere. I'm very happy with calman and dont'really want to pursue sorting out the issues. since you have a dtp-94, download toolcrib from the x-rite site and make some comparisons. Note that toolcrib has at least one issue, but it's small. you'll want to omit all offsets/conversions, etc when running hcfr and try to compare raw noncompensated data first, then move on to compensation.

I think the hcfr guys are very competent and I'm sure they feel confident in there dtp-94 implementation. when I tested it (a couple of beta's ago), I never got the warm fuzzies. It's just me...

If you check at the calman site, all meters have issues, but the dtp-94 is probably the best overall. d2 *may* have issues on plasmas due to IR non-filter, i1pro can't read at low light, s2 results depend on temperature and have big variations between sensors. I've personally tested 2 dtp-94's and they were identical down to spec'd tolerances.

Note I do like hcfr returning the temperature from the probe, but the value it gave differed from what the command line in toolcrib reports.

Best,
jeff
post #266 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

Note I do like hcfr returning the temperature from the probe, but the value it gave differed from what the command line in toolcrib reports.

Thanks for feeback, too bad it wasn't spot at beta stage and came late

BTW, we do have results in synch with XRite tools (and CFacts) so their must be something wrong somewhere...
Investigation started...

--Patrice
post #267 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orwellflash
I interpret this to mean that you have compared ColorHCFR to calman and found a difference in the results. I use the DTP94 also. Could you elaborate on this?

I also on my MitsCRT have a gamma of 2.2 on display and 2.5 on camera. If I try to target 2.2 on Camera, it will be too dark, so camera use will be dependent on your display. Yours seems to act just like mine..

 

mits55807-9-dtp94.zip 1.0068359375k . file
post #268 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

I couldn't get the results to match between HCFR and calman. calman agreed with the standalone app and toolcrib. So HCFR was an outlier. It's not unreasonable to suspect I did something wrong or had a bad setting somewhere. I'm very happy with calman and dont'really want to pursue sorting out the issues. since you have a dtp-94, download toolcrib from the x-rite site and make some comparisons. Note that toolcrib has at least one issue, but it's small. you'll want to omit all offsets/conversions, etc when running hcfr and try to compare raw noncompensated data first, then move on to compensation.

I think the hcfr guys are very competent and I'm sure they feel confident in there dtp-94 implementation. when I tested it (a couple of beta's ago), I never got the warm fuzzies. It's just me...

If you check at the calman site, all meters have issues, but the dtp-94 is probably the best overall. d2 *may* have issues on plasmas due to IR non-filter, i1pro can't read at low light, s2 results depend on temperature and have big variations between sensors. I've personally tested 2 dtp-94's and they were identical down to spec'd tolerances.

Note I do like hcfr returning the temperature from the probe, but the value it gave differed from what the command line in toolcrib reports.

Best,
jeff

Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the information. I'll try the toolcrib comparison. I've had some readings with my DTP94 through ColorHCFR that raised questions in my mind--rather large delta E shifts (4-5) on gray scale readings in continuous mode--I talked to x-rite about it and couldn't get any specific guidelines; just said that I could send the meter in for evaluation. I was not recalibrating the meter every ten minutes, though, as others later recommended, and my room temperature was varying, so that might have been a factor as well.

Jack
post #269 of 3872
Thanks for the feedback...

So to summarize, you've found quite large delta E shifts and temperature readings differant to command line one, is that right ?

There is a "debug" checkbox in the DTP94 probe tab. Would you mind setting it (checked) and send me the "decoder.log" file that will be created in ColorHCFR install dir ?
(after doing few measure that would highly your problem).

--Patrice
post #270 of 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by laric View Post

Thanks for the feedback...

So to summarize, you've found quite large delta E shifts and temperature readings differant to command line one, is that right ?

There is a "debug" checkbox in the DTP94 probe tab. Would you mind setting it (checked) and send me the "decoder.log" file that will be created in ColorHCFR install dir ?
(after doing few measure that would highly your problem).

--Patrice


I'm not sure what you mean by "different from command line one".

For example, I was reading 80% gray pattern from GetGray disc through dvd in continuous readings mode of ColorHCFR. In the "Display Measures" box, the delta E was jumping from reading to reading by as much as 4-5 delta E (sometimes less) and the %RGB levels by as much as 3-5% (ie. 99%-104% Red). I wasn't paying attention to temperature, I'll look at that next time and report back.

Yes, I will use debug function and send you the decoder log. I'll try to do it today. If not, it will be early next week, as I will be out of town this weekend.

Thanks.
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