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Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 2

post #31 of 3872
1/14/07 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Yep, I know. Unfortunately to get it dead on I will probably end up having an unacceptably low light output, so I will probably end up having to live with it as is. At least for now anyway.

I'd suggest trying all gamma settings with brightness/contrast at neutral in User Menu and see which one is best. Try taking measurements in dark to avoid ambient light throwing off the readings.
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post #32 of 3872
1/14/07 at 3:20pm
Yeap, all setting should be tested. More importantly, don't forget to set controls to default before measures.
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post #33 of 3872
1/14/07 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mist8rioso View Post

I'd suggest trying all gamma settings with brightness/contrast at neutral in User Menu and see which one is best. Try taking measurements in dark to avoid ambient light throwing off the readings.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have already turned out the lights in the room to see if that would help.

I'm actually getting more familiar with how the set reacts to various changes so changes are getting quicker.

I'm still pretty pleased with the improvement so far. The interesting part is I thought it wasn't too bad before I started. Until I saw my first set of measurements. Ugh.
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post #34 of 3872
1/14/07 at 6:56pm
Anyone? I am one of the first few posters on the first page of this thread, any ideas or suggestions with my color decoder?

Thanks again guys!!!
Carmine.
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post #35 of 3872
1/14/07 at 7:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Also, if you are using 75% color patterns, you have to set that up in C.HCFR. Go to Sensor>Configure, Calibration tab and type 75 for IRE level Images.

I just confirmed my thoughts on this about it having no affect unless you are using the DIY probe. I use the DTP-94 and just took readings as I had been in the past, with the default setting of 100IRE. Then I switched the setting to 75IRE and saw no difference at all.
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post #36 of 3872
1/14/07 at 7:19pm
OK, so I managed to get back on and start from scratch.

RShannonCA, if you do the following you should be OK.

Step 1. Set everything on the TV to default (mid-point) settings.
Step 2. Adjust primaries / secondaries to best fit the CIE chart. I managed to get this as close as before with the adjustments available on my TV.
Step 3. Adjust contrast / brightness until I get a good gamma curve. I didn't do this before and I'm probably as close to 2.2 as I'm ever going to get now.
Step 4. Fix greyscale. This was the tricky part. When adjusting the greyscale you need to pay attention to the gamma. In some cases you need to adjust the color temp by REDUCING component instead of INCREASING them. The key here is to keep an eye on the gamma. If it starts to get out whack then you probably need to decrease the primary instead of increasing it.

Done for now.

 

scratch.zip 0.9755859375k . file
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post #37 of 3872
1/14/07 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I just confirmed my thoughts on this about it having no affect unless you are using the DIY probe. I use the DTP-94 and just took readings as I had been in the past, with the default setting of 100IRE. Then I switched the setting to 75IRE and saw no difference at all.

Perhaps Patrice should confirm if it works or not. I know it was mentioned b4 to change this but no particular probe. Otherwise, it should be noted as a bug since it should be different in Luminance and if reading may be affected or not. I always use 100% so never tried 75%.
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post #38 of 3872
1/14/07 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

OK, so I managed to get back on and start from scratch.

RShannonCA, if you do the following you should be OK.

Step 1. Set everything on the TV to default (mid-point) settings.
Step 2. Adjust primaries / secondaries to best fit the CIE chart. I managed to get this as close as before with the adjustments available on my TV.
Step 3. Adjust contrast / brightness until I get a good gamma curve. I didn't do this before and I'm probably as close to 2.2 as I'm ever going to get now.
Step 4. Fix greyscale. This was the tricky part. When adjusting the greyscale you need to pay attention to the gamma. In some cases you need to adjust the color temp by REDUCING component instead of INCREASING them. The key here is to keep an eye on the gamma. If it starts to get out whack then you probably need to decrease the primary instead of increasing it.

Done for now.

I think it would be a good idea to try and have a quick and brief step by step process to help people out. If we ultimately come up with one I could edit it back into the original post in this thread. I believe there were a couple posts back in the other thread along these same lines.

As for jvincent' list above I would say #1 is not necessary. Item #3 should be the first thing done (set brightness and contrast) but should be done using test patterns. Color/tint should then be set using test patterns (filters in needed) as well since color/tint affect the position of the RGB on the CIE triangle but ultimately are not how you want to adjust them. Then go to grayscale. I'm not saying my comments are correct, it's just my $.02 based on what I've read around here.

So I guess this is what I did...

1) Set brightness and contrast using DVE test pattern.
2) Set color and tint using GetGray pattern with only blue CRT turned on.
3) Took grayscale measurements and checked gamma (mine was pretty much on 2.5 so left it).
4) Adjusted gray scale targeting dE of less than 3 for all IRE.
5) Went back and checked brightness/contrast and color/tint using test patterns.
6) Measured and checked CIE triangle. I don't have specific adjustmets for RBG so it is what it is.

From there it is pretty much an iterative process checking gamma, color temp, gray scale, CIE and getting them close.

For #3 I would think it is recommended to adjust specific gamma settings rather than brightness/contrast to get it right. Comments?

For #2 and #6 am I correct in that people should not use color/tint as the primary method for trying to move color points on the CIE. These should be done with specific Red, Green, Blue adjustments if available, which is only on a few displays. The rest of us just get what we get?
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post #39 of 3872
1/14/07 at 8:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Perhaps Patrice should confirm if it works or not. I know it was mentioned b4 to change this but no particular probe. Otherwise, it should be noted as a bug since it should be different in Luminance and if reading may be affected or not. I always use 100% so never tried 75%.

I agree I'll post my files here for anyone that wants to look into it. There is a very, very small shift but I assumed that was just my TV warming up as it was only on for about 5 minutes rather than the 30 I give it before taking measurements.

Again, all measurements were taken with 75% window patterns. File marked normal is what I have been doing to date, which is not changing the default setting of 100 for IRE patterns.
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post #40 of 3872
1/14/07 at 8:37pm
TV: Sony KDS50A2000 (LCoS Rear Projection)

I posted my v2 calibration two days ago and richlo pointed out that my contrast was way too high with gamma represented as an "S". I went back to the drawing board and focused completely on gamma. First, I reduced my CONTRAST setting from 100 to 62. I then had to raise my BRIGHTNESS from 38 to 50 to get my final gamma of 2.21. This BRIGHTNESS setting is much higher than what my Avia DVD test pattern shows but I'm trusting ColorHCFR!

I have attached my latest calibration file. With my limited knowledge, I don't believe I can improve on this with the USER SETTINGS at my disposal.

Please offer any comments on my calibration... perhaps there is a way to adjust my Primaries/Secondaries in the service menu.

Thanks!!

 

KDS50A2000_v3.zip 1.0654296875k . file
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post #41 of 3872
1/14/07 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic
jvincent- Your gamma still needs tweaking. As you can see you have an "S" like curve. Switch to Log. mode and 10-70IRE is being crushed and above that is clipping. Also, your Cyan should be on the white line not lonely out there. Try adjusting its saturation to bring it in.
Yep, I know. Unfortunately to get it dead on I will probably end up having an unacceptably low light output, so I will probably end up having to live with it as is. At least for now anyway.

On the CYAN front I don't have a way to pull it in with the controls available on my plasma. I can only move the points along the lines of the triangle.
Whoa, and I thought my Pioneer 4216 was bad. The Pio had the same gamma out of the factory as your NEC has it after you adjusted it. After being adjusted, the gamma on Pio looked much better but the TV kept forgetting new settings when powered off, so I returned it back to the store.

I had the same issue with Pioneer: the higher IRE portion of gamma curve looked as if it was clipping, but turning contrast down was bringing total contrast ratio too low and the picture looked washed out. Seems that NEC and Pioneer share similar technology as well as similar problems.

I got a Panasonic TH-50PX60U instead the Pio and it looks pretty good so far. At least it remembers the settings after it is powered off.

Attached are four profiles: Pioneer 4216 before/after and Panasonic 59PX60 before/after. Panasonic's contrast level is pretty low, this is because I am running the TV on low contrast level. Still, it is pretty watchable. I realize that after I crank the contrast up I will have to adjust my grayscale again, but I really wanted to lay my hands onto the controls

 

measures.zip 4.5048828125k . file
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post #42 of 3872
1/14/07 at 9:18pm
Recently I've read a number of posts where users are mistakenly using Brightness and Contrast controls exclusively or considerably to calibrate Gamma. That is not the correct way to perform such calibration. It requires "Gamma Controls", either in User Menu or Service Menu. Using brightness/contrast will most likely give unpleasant results in image quality, either a "dull/washed out" appearance or "dim/dark" image and very low contrast ratios. I've noticed alot of users' 0IRE luminance levels (Y) to be too high, hurting black level as well (how deep black is). At worst, brightness/contrast could only be used to "fine tune" gamma, as long as they don't go too far from settings obtain with proper brightness/contrast patterns.
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post #43 of 3872
1/14/07 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Recently I've read a number of posts where users are mistakenly using Brightness and Contrast controls exclusively or considerably to calibrate Gamma. That is not the correct way to perform such calibration. It requires "Gamma Controls", either in User Menu or Service Menu. Using brightness/contrast will most likely give unpleasant results in image quality, either a "dull/washed out" appearance or "dim/dark" image and very low contrast ratios. I've noticed alot of users' 0IRE luminance levels (Y) to be too high, hurting black level as well (how deep black is). At worst, brightness/contrast could only be used to "fine tune" gamma, as long as they don't go too far from settings obtain with proper brightness/contrast patterns.

You are right, I was not paying attention to raw numbers looking at smooth curve only. Now I look at the numbers and I see what you are talking about. Standard factory setup with less white levels has better overall contrast: 57.596/0.064 = 1504, while my "improved" gamma curva yields higher output but lower contrast ratio: 95.435/0.323 = 295. Umm, how bad is that?

I increased brightness using DVE and THX patterns, as bright as possible but so that blacker than black object was not visible. Yes, the black bars when they are shown are not so black anymore, but now I can see dark grays. My TV does not seem to have a separate gamma control, so what do I do to improve visibility of dark gray shades?
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post #44 of 3872
1/14/07 at 10:04pm
For checking a plasma, do you use the CRT settings? Also, can someone confirm that the SpyderII sensor setting is correct for a SpyderTV sensor?

My first attempt in using this program with the above settings resulted in WAY off gray scale - too much green ( it was reporting insufficient green).

-Dave
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post #45 of 3872
1/14/07 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Recently I've read a number of posts where users are mistakenly using Brightness and Contrast controls exclusively or considerably to calibrate Gamma. That is not the correct way to perform such calibration.

This is not entirely true for crt sets. Many of the older analog HD sets do not have gamma controls. The way you control gamma is by reducing contrast until you: 1) get enough light output from the set and most importantly 2) the crts are behaving linearly across the entire % stimulus range.

With my two crt rptv's, reducing contrast was the key to good gamma performance and linear grayscale tracking. Crank up the contrast and you'd have humps in grayscale and ultra low gamma.

Brightness is also important, since it's controlling the low end (black point). if black point is off, then you can also get odd gamma readings. But this might be more a function of a flakey gamma calculation that makes some low end assumptions that are being violated.

Best,
jeff
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post #46 of 3872
1/14/07 at 10:24pm
You are absolutely right, but users doing it the "wrong" have digital displays, hence I posted that since they most definitely have gamma controls somewhere. If you read Ungermann's post, you can see that brightness was raise so high that not even the worst digital display has a black level of 0.323. Reason why gamma controls are very important for them.
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post #47 of 3872
1/14/07 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I increased brightness using DVE and THX patterns, as bright as possible but so that blacker than black object was not visible. Yes, the black bars when they are shown are not so black anymore, but now I can see dark grays. My TV does not seem to have a separate gamma control, so what do I do to improve visibility of dark gray shades?

If you have Getgrey, that should be better for your display. Your gamma controls are most likely in the Service menu if they aren't on user menu. Once everything gets calibrated properly, things should look alot better, since Panasonic plasmas have good black level and shadow detail (per reviews).
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post #48 of 3872
1/14/07 at 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

If you have Getgrey, that should be better for your display.

How GetGray is going to be better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Your gamma controls are most likely in the Service menu if they aren't on user menu.

AFAIK, my TV (Panasonic TH-50PX60U) does not have a gamma control, even in service menu. I wish I were mistaken.
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post #49 of 3872
1/14/07 at 11:39pm
Ok, I've been working on this for awhile now! Here is my file from HCFR. Please post any comments or recommended changes.

Thanks for all of the tips!

 

mits-57732-after.zip 1.041015625k . file
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post #50 of 3872
1/15/07 at 2:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Perhaps Patrice should confirm if it works or not. I know it was mentioned b4 to change this but no particular probe. Otherwise, it should be noted as a bug since it should be different in Luminance and if reading may be affected or not. I always use 100% so never tried 75%.

Hi,

Just a reminder (or not as I'm not sure it was explained before) on the IRE level Images percentage settings (in probe Calibration Tab).

This percentage is only use when calibrating our probe; it is of no use elsewhere. Primaries/Secondary measures patterns should always be 100%.

That's why this value is set in the probe calibration tab and not in pattern generator settings.

I admit this is a bit subtle and misleading, we will amend this

--Patrice
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post #51 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

How GetGray is going to be better?
AFAIK, my TV (Panasonic TH-50PX60U) does not have a gamma control, even in service menu. I wish I were mistaken.


GetGray is dedicated to digital displays. For instance, AVIA is geared for CRT, although there are some patterns you can use with all technology, not all are done the same. For instance, in AVIA setting contrast, you need to increase it until blooming happens and reduce it to where it stops, well - with digital you will not see blooming - this is where GetGray has some patterns to help you determine where for digital displays, is your max contrast before colorshifting or clipping.


I would be surprised if your Panny does not have some gamma control. Do you have a service manual? If you do but are not sure, then ask around to see what it will be called.
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post #52 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:35am
I would appriciate feedback on my calibration.
It's all done by user menu now, with the following setup:

Contrast 90
Brightness 51
Colour 40
Colour tone - Warm1
R Contrast 83
G Contrast 79
B Contrast 46

R Brightness 69
G Brightness 53
B Brightness 0


It's a Samsung LCD TV (European model, LE-32N71).

 

Color-v2.zip 0.900390625k . file
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post #53 of 3872
1/15/07 at 5:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laric View Post

Hi,

Just a reminder (or not as I'm not sure it was explained before) on the IRE level Images percentage settings (in probe Calibration Tab).

This percentage is only use when calibrating our probe; it is of no use elsewhere. Primaries/Secondary measures patterns should always be 100%.

That's why this value is set in the probe calibration tab and not in pattern generator settings.

I admit this is a bit subtle and misleading, we will amend this

--Patrice

Thanks for confirming this laric. But now it seems I need to go back re-check things as I have been using 75% patterns this whole time. Should I see a difference using 100% patterns vs 75% patterns on my CRT RPTV.
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post #54 of 3872
1/15/07 at 6:29am
ditto on the 75%...now Im back to re-running..hahah
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post #55 of 3872
1/15/07 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

As for jvincent' list above I would say #1 is not necessary. Item #3 should be the first thing done (set brightness and contrast) but should be done using test patterns. Color/tint should then be set using test patterns (filters in needed) as well since color/tint affect the position of the RGB on the CIE triangle but ultimately are not how you want to adjust them. Then go to grayscale. I'm not saying my comments are correct, it's just my $.02 based on what I've read around here.

Just to clarify my method, I reset everything to midpoint just to have a "known" starting point. I had started my previous runs from a point where I had calibrated by eye.

For my particular setup, connected via HDMI to my HTPC, I don't have any colour/tint controls. Either way, I think that doing the CIE chart first is probably best since it is independent of greyscale.

My CIE chart did not change after doing the greyscale adjustments nor was it affected by brightness/contrast.
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post #56 of 3872
1/15/07 at 8:23am
Okay... now that it appears that my method for arriving at 2.21 gamma is faulty I need to know what to do. I have 5 different gamma setting available to me in the user menu. OFF through MAX. Should I set everything to default and onlty do runs with the different gamma settings to see which one is closest to 2.2?

I've got a feeling that by chance if I do have one setting that yields 2.2, when I start to adjust brightness and contrast from Avia test patterns it will change the gamma to something undesireable.

So, with that said... someone whi has knowledge would be my hero if they would post the best methodology for calibrating my TV with ColorHCFR.

Please look at my calibration that I attached above and see what I was able to do last night.

Thanks so much!!
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post #57 of 3872
1/15/07 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carillon View Post

Okay... now that it appears that my method for arriving at 2.21 gamma is faulty I need to know what to do. I have 5 different gamma setting available to me in the user menu. OFF through MAX. Should I set everything to default and onlty do runs with the different gamma settings to see which one is closest to 2.2?

I've got a feeling that by chance if I do have one setting that yields 2.2, when I start to adjust brightness and contrast from Avia test patterns it will change the gamma to something undesireable.

So, with that said... someone whi has knowledge would be my hero if they would post the best methodology for calibrating my TV with ColorHCFR.

Please look at my calibration that I attached above and see what I was able to do last night.

Thanks so much!!

Just a note.. Some blog said that HCFR measured gama in a different way then other software, and you should aim for about 1.9 gama in HCFR
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post #58 of 3872
1/15/07 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by janterje View Post

Just a note.. Some blog said that HCFR measured gama in a different way then other software, and you should aim for about 1.9 gama in HCFR

Instead of reading "some blog" you could follow the discussion with actual developers of ColorHCFR. This issue was fixed (or even more ambiguated, depending on your point of view) in v. 1.21.
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post #59 of 3872
1/15/07 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Instead of reading "some blog" you could follow the discussion with actual developers of ColorHCFR. This issue was fixed (or even more ambiguated, depending on your point of view) in v. 1.21.

Ditto..
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post #60 of 3872
1/15/07 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carillon View Post

I've got a feeling that by chance if I do have one setting that yields 2.2, when I start to adjust brightness and contrast from Avia test patterns it will change the gamma to something undesireable.

Brightness, contrast, and gamma are all related and you invariably need to adjust brightness and contrast as a part of getting the right gamma curve.

The thing to remember is that it's not just matching the curve that matters. You also need to set brightness and contrast correctly. In other words having a good gamma curve is useless if you have raised brightness to the point of where "black" is actually grey.

Having just been through this in spades over the weekend here are some tips, specific to plasma displays, that can help.

When setting brightness, ALWAYS make sure that 0% grey has no active sub-pixels of any colour. You should start to see dithering of sub-pixels on a 5% field.

Assuming you always maintain an absolute off state for 0% you then need to fine tune your brightness/contrast/gamma setting so that you best fit the curve you want. In the end, you will ultimately hit a limit with contrast. Beyond that point you will start to clip/crush colours.
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