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Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 104

post #3091 of 3872
11/10/09 at 7:37am
A piece of electrical or painter's tape on the top of the bezel (holding the meter's cable in place) may work. Just be sure whatever tape you use is easily removable and doesn't leave any residue behind.
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post #3092 of 3872
11/10/09 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoreiwo View Post

I resorted to using a mop in front of my set, leaning the tip on the stick against the meter, you can angle it to whatever pressure you want. That is, if your setup allows it. Mine - it works perfectly.... ymmv

Ha! Very creative. That'll get me thinking outside the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

A piece of electrical or painter's tape on the top of the bezel (holding the meter's cable in place) may work. Just be sure whatever tape you use is easily removable and doesn't leave any residue behind.

Well, the problem is my TV's bezel sticks out just far enough from the screen, that when the meter hangs by its cable, it's not against the screen with any kind of weight to it. So because the cable is naturally twisted (as twisted wire cable usually is... haha) it twists the bottom of the meter away from the screen on an angle.

I've got some painter's tape. I guess I could test that on a part of the screen and see if it leaves any residue, but I don't really like the idea of taping the meter directly to the screen. Maybe I can strike up a better balance between the suction cups and the counterweight to minimize the effect that gravity is having on the meter which is stuck to the screen, and prevent any light blooming due to screen distortion.

Am I out of my mind though to think I should be able to get better calibration results than what I was achieving in this post?

If any of you were getting results around that mark, with the same equipment (Samsung LN46A530 TV, Eye-One Display 2, HCFR, AVS HD 709), would you keep going, trying to achieve better? Or have I reached some kind of limit here? I'm just wondering how much better I can actually make this or if it's just a waste of time after a certain point...

Thanks,

Doug
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post #3093 of 3872
11/10/09 at 12:44pm
Try taking your readings at 80 and 30 instead of 20. The lower you go the less accurate your meter is. For readings below 30 you need to use yoru eyes as you have been doing. You will have more accurate readings on the low end by using 30.
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post #3094 of 3872
11/10/09 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

Try taking your readings at 80 and 30 instead of 20. The lower you go the less accurate your meter is. For readings below 30 you need to use yoru eyes as you have been doing. You will have more accurate readings on the low end by using 30.

While this can be true in some cases, it's the Y reading that determines how accurate the reading is, not a particular level of stimulus. Three factors exist that influence this:

1. Black level (Y)
2. Peak White (Y)
3. Gamma/Luminance Curve (low end particularly)

If your black level is quite low and the TV comes out of black slowly (high low-end gamma), then what you mentioned is especially true. Then again, if peak white is quite high (40-50 fL), 10% and 20% stimulus readings could be accurate enough.
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post #3095 of 3872
11/10/09 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoreiwo View Post

I resorted to using a mop in front of my set, leaning the tip on the stick against the meter, you can angle it to whatever pressure you want. That is, if your setup allows it. Mine - it works perfectly.... ymmv

I use a tripod. The handle pushes very gently on the sensor to hold it against the screen.

Goo Gone for tape residue on the frame.
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post #3096 of 3872
11/11/09 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Full fields are usually best for LCD due to CE dimming, which can screw up gamma readings at low levels of stimulus when using windows. Your grayscale technique seems about right, I'd just take it very slow once 80% and 20% are as close to D65 as possible.

BTW, always center the meter on the screen.

This from the ISF Calibrator who did my LG 55LH90:

Quote:


Full field: we almost never use them for white balance because the "Window" produces something we call APL (Average Picture Level), the ratio of the rectangle to the screen remains constant regardless of screen size, where with a full raster, it varies with screen size and you get lower light readings as a result.

He calibrated with 'local dimming' OFF.
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post #3097 of 3872
11/11/09 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

This from the ISF Calibrator who did my LG 55LH90:

He calibrated with 'local dimming' OFF.

Two things:

1. I was referring to CE dimming for CCFL LCDs, not local dimming LED LCDs.

2. Using full fields is required if CE dimming is not turned off, something that would need to be done in the service menu (which is not something to mess with if you're not sure what you're doing).

BTW, only Plasma and CRT displays need windowed patterns, not LCD.
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post #3098 of 3872
11/11/09 at 12:31pm
oh hell plasmapz80u you beat me to it.

i was going to say:

Quote:


Full field: we almost never use them

he's "right", but i'm quite sure he was talking about a plasma or CRT. ABL is not a feature of most (any?) LCD's which is what is being discussed here.
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post #3099 of 3872
11/11/09 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

he's "right", but i'm quite sure he was talking about a plasma or CRT. ABL is not a feature of most (any?) LCD's which is what is being discussed here.

exactly
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post #3100 of 3872
11/12/09 at 11:37am
Just a quick post to say I haven't had a chance to try calibrating again. I'm getting anxious though, so hopefully soon!

Thanks again for all the contributions so far people!

Any thoughts in relation to this question I asked in my last post:

Quote:


Am I out of my mind though to think I should be able to get better calibration results than what I was achieving in this post?

If any of you were getting results around that mark, with the same equipment (Samsung LN46A530 TV, Eye-One Display 2, HCFR, AVS HD 709), would you keep going, trying to achieve better? Or have I reached some kind of limit here? I'm just wondering how much better I can actually make this or if it's just a waste of time after a certain point...

Doug
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post #3101 of 3872
11/12/09 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S79 View Post

Just a quick post to say I haven't had a chance to try calibrating again. I'm getting anxious though, so hopefully soon!

Thanks again for all the contributions so far people!

Any thoughts in relation to this question I asked in my last post:

Doug

Doug, it appears your posted .chc file is available here, right? And Color After 2 was your second pass?

Looking at the numeric data for the colors, you can see that your white and cyan Y measures are 124fL and 121fL, similar to your 100% white grayscale Y of 124fL. Yet the Yellow and Green Y values are 152fL. This is so off the mark that it screams out to me that you have some dynamic controls still enabled, probably CE dimming as you wrote that you have turned off dynamic contrast and energy saving. To my mind, this makes all the measures suspect.
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post #3102 of 3872
11/13/09 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post
Doug, it appears your posted .chc file is available here, right? And Color After 2 was your second pass?
Hi Bill. Yes, that's correct. Thanks for taking a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post
Looking at the numeric data for the colors, you can see that your white and cyan Y measures are 124fL and 121fL, similar to your 100% white grayscale Y of 124fL. Yet the Yellow and Green Y values are 152fL. This is so off the mark that it screams out to me that you have some dynamic controls still enabled, probably CE dimming as you wrote that you have turned off dynamic contrast and energy saving. To my mind, this makes all the measures suspect.
Yikes. I don't know what to make of that. I definitely have all the user-adjustable dynamic settings turned off, and have pretty much all along. When you say this makes all the measures suspect, are you thinking the meter might be to blame, or something else? Could it simply be using the windows vs the full fields causing that?

I had a chance to try again last night, but unfortunately didn't finish and didn't measure the primaries yet. The funny thing is, to my uneducated eyes, the RGB measurements don't look all that different from Test 2, but the image on screen looks a lot better!! When I performed test 2, I had bumped up the backlight to 5 or 6, cranked the gamma setting over to -3 and reduced the contrast down to 75. Last night I started from my third attempt (I didn't post any files from that) which had the backlight back at 4, the gamma setting at -1, and the contrast up around 90. By the end of last night, I ended up moving the gamma setting to -2 and the contrast to 82, and tweaked the grayscale settings of course. I'm attaching my current file if anyone cares to have a look.

Oh, and fwiw, I used full fields instead of windows this time and had the meter about 3/4 over to one side and down a bit, where the clouding on the LCD appeared least noticeable to me.

Looking at the luminance graph in my current file, would reducing the luminance of blue get it more in line with the others? (I believe that is accomplished by reducing the B slider on Blue in the Samsung CMS) Would that also help even out the gamma a bit? Or are those measurements not affected by the color space settings? The only problem with doing that is that I'm using Auto as the colour space right now, so I have no idea what I would put the other colours settings at if I switch to custom. I will take a measurement of the primaries and secondaries to go along with this file next time I get to work on it.

Thanks for the input!

Doug
LL
LL
LL

 

Try 4 Midway 17.zip 0.8935546875k . file
LL
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post #3103 of 3872
11/14/09 at 10:26am
Hello everyone,

I had my Pioneer PRO-150FD calibrated this week and my calibrator was using HCFR and we were hoping to calibrate the gamma using the Pioneer's 9 point gamma adjustments but we could not figure out how to get the software to take real time measurements of the changes being made in the tv. For example we picked gamma point 5 and set the RGB controls to max and then to min and no change was picked up by the software in the screens he was using. Is there a set of instructions on how to use HCFR to calibrate the gamma? My gamma curve was a bit whacky in places and since the Pioneer has the controls to compensate for the off gamma curve I want to get that calibrated. I'm sure it's not hard once a person knows where to go in the software and what to do when there but for the life of us we couldn't figure it out.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks
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post #3104 of 3872
11/15/09 at 9:11am
My set is a G15 Panasonic (50") running in THX mode. I am very pleased with the post calibration gray scale, color temp and gamma. But much less pleased with the color readings.
I am using a Eye-One LT and I have eyeballed color and tint via a blue filter. I tried to balance the CYM balance via the tint control but I did not see much change.
I understand thet the Eye-One is not so great for color... and that there are no service menu settings available. If thats the case what should I do?

 

pana_g15a.zip 3.5595703125k . file
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post #3105 of 3872
11/15/09 at 1:17pm
Here is my report on the Panasonic 50pz800u in thx mode. My reading on the blue is 835% while the standard and everyone else are around 1300%. I am wonding if my i1 LT is not working right as I bought it on ebay as used. is there a way to fix my CIE trangle?

 

panasonic_50pz800.zip 1.1240234375k . file
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post #3106 of 3872
11/16/09 at 8:57am
Ok, so I haven't had a chance to try again, but I have been going over my measurements from the last try and trying to determine what they mean and what I can do to make them better.

Here are my observations so far:

1. Blue is higher than other colours in luminance chart, but is on track by 90%
2. Blue has low gamma dip from 40% and up
3. Blue is maxed out in white balance gain control
4. Blue RGB dip at 30%, boost in mid-range (50% - 70%) and dips again at top end (90% - 100%). A blue "hump"?

5. Gamma is lower in bottom end of scale (0% - 40%)

6. Red has higher gamma throughout, but is really veering off from the other colours starting at 40%
7. Red dips in RGB graph from 40% - 70%, bottoms out at 60% -- a red dip in the roughly the same place as the blue hump.
8. Red luminance is high below 50% and low after 50% getting worse as it goes

9. Green luminance is high below 60% & 70% but lowers for 80% and 90%

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions based on these points, or any other observations that can be made from my last attempt?

I watched The Ugly Truth on BD over the weekend and often the skin tones appeared to look red in the shadows. You know like around ears and under chins and where hair meets the face, etc. But other shadows looked fine. It was just noticeable on faces. Grrrr....

Thanks in advance,

Doug
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post #3107 of 3872
11/17/09 at 1:30pm
Here are 3 images from my calibration.
LL
LL
LL
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post #3108 of 3872
11/18/09 at 6:12am
Samsung 8500 by Chad B

 

EllisSam8500aftercalday.pdf 138.6767578125k . file
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post #3109 of 3872
11/20/09 at 5:28am
this was the before

 

EllisSam8500before.pdf 144.509765625k . file
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post #3110 of 3872
11/20/09 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by YO-EL View Post

Samsung 8500 by Chad B

I wish I could get results like that! Those measurements look really good. Your gamma and luminance look right on track. Makes me embarrassed to even post my results!

I still don't understand what causes the little spikes in RGB levels at different points along the greyscale though...?

Doug
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post #3111 of 3872
11/23/09 at 9:04pm
If I am not mistaken, this is my first posting or second on this thread and wondering how steep is the learning curve to this software?? In the even't that I go forward, of course more then likely asking this at the end of the tunnel.
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post #3112 of 3872
11/24/09 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

If I am not mistaken, this is my first posting or second on this thread and wondering how steep is the learning curve to this software?? In the even't that I go forward, of course more then likely asking this at the end of the tunnel.

It seems obvious, but using this really helped:
http://translate.google.com/translat...23&sl=fr&tl=en

Of course the problem is that the guide is in french but google did a decent job translating.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's where I am now with my Panasonic G10:

-The Greyscale delta for all but 0 IRE is <2
-White point is within 1% D65

Here are some graphs -- please tell me what you see and give me your thoughts:

CIE Graph
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...589K9A/CIE.png

Saturation Graph
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...Saturation.png

Why does my saturation graph look the way it does? I know I need to raise the color a little more but I see that all the colors are well separated.

Thanks for your help before hand!
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post #3113 of 3872
11/24/09 at 9:18pm
Thanks gersson for the information looked around the sites and it sure is not a walk in the park type of software a lot of sweat and tears and elbow grease and PATIENCE and a lot of reading and comprehending, have to really think about this?

By the way did not look to see if it works for a 1080P front Projector.

Thanks again
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post #3114 of 3872
11/24/09 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

Thanks gersson for the information looked around the sites and it sure is not a walk in the park type of software a lot of sweat and tears and elbow grease and PATIENCE and a lot of reading and comprehending, have to really think about this?

By the way did not look to see if it works for a 1080P front Projector.

Thanks again

zapper- get a displayone lt and download colorhcfr. get it all connected up on your computer and get it ready to take some readings.

measure your display.

post your results here.

don't read kal's guide http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457 until after you have made your first measurement.

really nothing has changed since you first asked about all this last year, so if you're still curious, go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

Any replies or suggestions, you guy's????? It would be Greatly appreciated before I start spending $ and realize the total cost is over my head!

Trying to get just a ball park figure, thats all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch437 View Post

a decent cheap colorimeter (i'm thinking of eye one LT) can be had for around $150. let's assume you already have a computer. HCFR is free. total cash outlay: $150.

but that has almost nothing to do with your real dilemma: do you want to spend the *time* needed to get results?

if you do, then a) you will lose a lot of time that could have been spent doing something else and b) you will gain a lot of understanding of what is really happening with displays systems in general and especially your system in particular: you will gain through direct experience that which cannot be learned by reading a book or an internet forum.

whether b) outweighs a) is something only you can decide.

i will give you an idea of a) however:

to get "proficient" at taking measurements, understanding the measurements, locating and understanding the controls on your equipment, making tedious iterative changes to the settings on your equipment, etc takes a fair amount of time.

sure: if you spend even as little as an hour, you could get useful results, make no mistake. but very few people stop after taking one measurement: the usually try to correct something, then take another measurement to see if it worked. that's the scientific method and it's what has led to mankind's greatest achievements, but it takes time.

the US minimum wage may be $6.55/hour, but i like to think my time is worth a *lot* more than that, and if you have a family then in some ways any time taken away from them cannot really be priced.

on my hard drive i have over 100 .chc files, even though i have a crappy little LCD and really only wanted to see if the grayscale was close. (it was, but i kept find other ways i could "optimize" my system, and pretty soon it became a challenge to see just how good i could make my equipment perform.)

how much time have i spent making just 100 files? a lot. i would guess regular contributors to this thread have made 1000's of calibration runs. how much time have they spent?

they clearly enjoy the process and place a high value on what they do.

will you?
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post #3115 of 3872
11/25/09 at 6:01am
Hi @ll,

reading for some time here and using a EyeOne LT with the HCFR Soft i tought eventually some of you more expierenced Guys here can help me sort out my Gamma Problems wich i cant get under control.

Im very happy with my overall Greyscale and actually specially because Pana thinks they doi not have need for any CMS for Color correction.

But what i really want to get fixed is this low Gamma i get of around 1.85.

In the normal User Menu I user Cinema Mode with warm color temperature wich should be the one to go for. But lowering Contrast and Brightness does not get me anywhere. I can push my gamma to around 1.95 if i lower those soo much that i cant see the 10% IRE grey window at all and until now i did not find any way to have both in place and a good gamma above 2.1.


See my Calib file attached.

Thanks in advance
cheers

 

Kino_Warm_Calibrated.zip 1.1103515625k . file
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post #3116 of 3872
11/25/09 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler72 View Post

Hi @ll,

reading for some time here and using a EyeOne LT with the HCFR Soft i tought eventually some of you more expierenced Guys here can help me sort out my Gamma Problems wich i cant get under control.

Im very happy with my overall Greyscale and actually specially because Pana thinks they doi not have need for any CMS for Color correction.

But what i really want to get fixed is this low Gamma i get of around 1.85.

In the normal User Menu I user Cinema Mode with warm color temperature wich should be the one to go for. But lowering Contrast and Brightness does not get me anywhere. I can push my gamma to around 1.95 if i lower those soo much that i cant see the 10% IRE grey window at all and until now i did not find any way to have both in place and a good gamma above 2.1.


See my Calib file attached.

Thanks in advance
cheers

Hi, Tyler72
I have a 50G10 so we're not far apart from each other.
Also, I'm no expert but I took a quick look @ your file.
My suggestion: try using a different preset.
For example, on the 50G10, the standard mode has a noticeably lighter gamma while custom has a slightly darker gamma.
I'd probably go crazy trying to fix the gamma on my set if I were not aware of that fact :-)
Hope it helps.

NOW,
can someone help me with my question a few posts up?
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post #3117 of 3872
11/25/09 at 8:14am
Thanks for the Advice, i'll check later at home. But i guess you have an us model of the pana because the european model hast Dynamic, Normal, Cinema and Game Mode. I guess the Normal Mode is similar to your custom.
As i have tried to calibrate on this mode too i can definately say that after calibration i again hit a Gamma average around 1.75 (!) with a max of 1.95 on the low and and min around 70% IRE, all in all forming a curve.. So not really usable. The same with the game mode. The Dynamic Mode is absolutely unusable because of complete wront colour saturation...



regarding your saturation levels i can tell you that i almost have the same graph, but as i read about no real use of this figure (specially with no control on the pana to correct it) i did not went into more exploring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gersson View Post

Here are some graphs -- please tell me what you see and give me your thoughts:

CIE Graph
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...589K9A/CIE.png

Saturation Graph
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...Saturation.png

Why does my saturation graph look the way it does? I know I need to raise the color a little more but I see that all the colors are well separated.

Thanks for your help before hand!
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post #3118 of 3872
11/25/09 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler72 View Post

regarding your saturation levels i can tell you that i almost have the same graph, but as i read about no real use of this figure (specially with no control on the pana to correct it) i did not went into more exploring.

Well, I added +5 to the color on the TV and the graph cleaned up nice!
It is obvious that I needed more color but to my surprise all the colors got together and when I upped color. I assumed the difference between them would stay the same :-)

I'm very happy with the calibration experience. Thanks to the HCFR team
I've calibrated everything that CAN be calibrated -- even the 14" in the kitchen!
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post #3119 of 3872
11/25/09 at 1:14pm
Where does one get the i1 Pro from? I am interested in using the i1 Pro meter with HCFR instead of buying the Calman package, but I haven't had luck finding the i1 Pro meter alone
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post #3120 of 3872
11/25/09 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Where does one get the i1 Pro from? I am interested in using the i1 Pro meter with HCFR instead of buying the Calman package, but I haven't had luck finding the i1 Pro meter alone

http://www.rpimaging.com/store/PID96...-Eye-One-Basic

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Basic_UV.html

Larry
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