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Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 3

post #61 of 3872
1/15/07 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Instead of reading "some blog" you could follow the discussion with actual developers of ColorHCFR. This issue was fixed (or even more ambiguated, depending on your point of view) in v. 1.21.

V've been reading the other thread where this was mentioned at the start, however, i must have missed the posts indicating that the problem was fixed. Thanks for letting us now, i don't want to spread inacure information! Actually thought it was "ment to be wrong" in hcfr.
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post #62 of 3872
1/15/07 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

ditto on the 75%...now Im back to re-running..hahah


Damnit. Now I'm going to have to go back and check my primaries again. I would have thought that taking a reading at 75% vs 100% intensity wouldn't matter, especially for the primaries. I can see where it could matter for secondaries if one of the primaries was clipped.

After re-reading the whole gamma discussion (again) I may need to redo that as well. I should probably re-read Poynton while I'm at it.
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post #63 of 3872
1/15/07 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Brightness, contrast, and gamma are all related and you invariably need to adjust brightness and contrast as a part of getting the right gamma curve.

The thing to remember is that it's not just matching the curve that matters. You also need to set brightness and contrast correctly. In other words having a good gamma curve is useless if you have raised brightness to the point of where "black" is actually grey.

Having just been through this in spades over the weekend here are some tips, specific to plasma displays, that can help.

When setting brightness, ALWAYS make sure that 0% grey has no active sub-pixels of any colour. You should start to see dithering of sub-pixels on a 5% field.

Assuming you always maintain an absolute off state for 0% you then need to fine tune your brightness/contrast/gamma setting so that you best fit the curve you want. In the end, you will ultimately hit a limit with contrast. Beyond that point you will start to clip/crush colours.

So what you're saying is to set the brightness based on the 0 IRE pattern first where I see no pixelation etc. My TV has user menu gamma settings, which one should I start with befoe setting brightness. The settings are from OFF to MAX.

Last night when I created my calibration, I did notice to when I got gamma where it needed to be I had to sacrifice good blacks for dark grays. As I said earlier, someone with good working knowledge of ColorHCFR would be so kind as to post a step by step approach to calibration.
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post #64 of 3872
1/15/07 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Damnit. Now I'm going to have to go back and check my primaries again. I would have thought that taking a reading at 75% vs 100% intensity wouldn't matter, especially for the primaries. I can see where it could matter for secondaries if one of the primaries was clipped.

Most likely there won't be a difference since CIE graph only use x,y coordinates (no luminance involved). I rechecked myself because I was unsure as well, no difference on plotted triangle.
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post #65 of 3872
1/15/07 at 10:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Most likely there won't be a difference since CIE graph only use x,y coordinates (no luminance involved). I rechecked myself because I was unsure as well, no difference on plotted triangle.

I don't have my files in front of me but I think I did try this a while back and saw no difference in 75% and 100%.
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post #66 of 3872
1/15/07 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Most likely there won't be a difference since CIE graph only use x,y coordinates (no luminance involved). I rechecked myself because I was unsure as well, no difference on plotted triangle.

That's what I figured.

Still need to redo the gamma though.
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post #67 of 3872
1/15/07 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

ditto on the 75%...now Im back to re-running..hahah

Please excuse my ignorance... but what is a 75% vs. 100% pattern? I'm using the Avia color fields pattern which fills the entire 4:3 image area and I am using the default Spyder probe settings. Am I okay in doing it this way.

Also, I have heard that the Avia DVD has some known issues with some of its' patterns. Does anyone know what they are? Thanks!!
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post #68 of 3872
1/15/07 at 10:55am
The 75% and 100% refer to the intensity of the signal, i.e. 100% = full power.

I can't remember what the Avia disk has, but it should say on the info screen in the menu.

I believe the issues with Avia are contamination of the grey screens with some extra red content.
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post #69 of 3872
1/15/07 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

The 75% and 100% refer to the intensity of the signal, i.e. 100% = full power.

I can't remember what the Avia disk has, but it should say on the info screen in the menu.

I believe the issues with Avia are contamination of the grey screens with some extra red content.

Thanks jvincent. The Avia menu doesn't label what the color fields are so I'm going to guess they are 100%. The RED contamination is worrisome if true. Maybe others will chime in.

I'm really tempted to get the GetGray DVD since it is designed for digital sets. What do you use?

Have any of you switched from Avia to GetGray for use with ColorHCFR and been happier?
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post #70 of 3872
1/15/07 at 11:43am
I switched to GetGray from Avia about a year ago.

GetGray is MUCH easier to use and Scott (the author) went to great pains to ensure that the images are accurate.
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post #71 of 3872
1/15/07 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

WHen I opened your file your gamma show its at 1.21 (and thats a loose average) using Camera Gamma, so even lower using the 2nd option..so Im just confused at you stating 2.2.

in fact, if you look at your gamma AVG, Blue line, it looks like a Computer gamma..a straight line from one corner to the other, instead of a curve gamma

Everything else looks phenomenal..


I've seen "Camera Gamma" mentioned before in the threads. I thought it referred to different gamma calculation options in HCFR that one would select. Can't see anything in the menus to change though. Is it there somewhere ?
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post #72 of 3872
1/15/07 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron S View Post

I've seen "Camera Gamma" mentioned before in the threads. I thought it referred to different gamma calculation options in HCFR that one would select. Can't see anything in the menus to change though. Is it there somewhere ?

Click on 'Preferences', then 'References'.
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post #73 of 3872
1/15/07 at 12:42pm
Hello all,

Attached are the files from working on adjusting my plasma. I started with the user mode and didn't care for the shape of the gamma curve. I tried the movie mode next and it seems to have a much better behaved gamma curve over the IRE range. In a way it's a bummer that the movie mode has a better gamma than the user mode as you can't configure the movie mode uniquely for each input.

The thing that seems off is the the location of the green primary. I didn't stumble across any way to adjust it in the service mode.

edit: I get the same reading from Denon over HDMI, RP91 over component and even using set internal test pattern.

Any thoughts folks?

Particulars:
Pioneer PDP-6071 Plasma
Denon DVD3930 over HDMI at 720
Video Essentials (not Digital) patterns
SpyderTV (with filter)

 

user 0 ped col -3 tint -4.zip 1.0576171875k . file

 

movie 0 ped col -3 tint -4 cont 37.zip 2.1904296875k . file
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post #74 of 3872
1/15/07 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron S View Post

Hello all,

Attached are the files from working on adjusting my plasma. I started with the user mode and didn't care for the shape of the gamma curve. I tried the movie mode next and it seems to have a much better behaved gamma curve over the IRE range. In a way it's a bummer that the movie mode has a better gamma than the user mode as you can't configure the movie mode uniquely for each input.

Looking at the files, Movie mode just brings down contrast, hence smoother curve. You can compare "Y" values and see what I mean. If you re-adjusted User mode(bring contrast down), most likely you'll have a curve similar to Movie.

For a more direct comparison, you need to adjust brightness/contrast w/ pattern every time you change gamma settings or "Display modes".
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post #75 of 3872
1/15/07 at 2:31pm
Attached are my measurments.

I took the color measuments at 75% and then again at 100%. My secondaries are off at 100%.

I tried to adjust them and was able to get the yellow and cyan, but I could not get the magenta lined up. I ended up putting the colors back at the 75.

I adjusted the magenta all the way to the max on color and tint, but it did not move after a certain point. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Any ideas on how I can get it lined up at 100%?

thanks

 

mits-57732-100.zip 1.0185546875k . file

 

mits-57732-75.zip 1.0185546875k . file
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post #76 of 3872
1/15/07 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Looking at the files, Movie mode just brings down contrast, hence smoother curve. You can compare "Y" values and see what I mean. If you re-adjusted User mode(bring contrast down), most likely you'll have a curve similar to Movie.

For a more direct comparison, you need to adjust brightness/contrast w/ pattern every time you change gamma settings or "Display modes".

Thanks for your feedback !!

I'm not sure I follow you on your comment about contrast though. I thought I had set the 100% Y (of xyY ) values between the 2 modes fairly close (168 vs 172 ) with different contrast for the different modes. I think I recall trying with a lower contrast in the user mode and saw the same shape. I'll try to find it and post it.

Any comments on the off reading for green?
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post #77 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:09pm
ok now before i get really confused please tell me if this correct for doing grayscale you use 75% and for primary and secondary you use 100% is this right? just want to be sure before i attack the plasma one more time and do it all over again thanks for this wonderful piece of software.
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post #78 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:14pm
jvincent may be you can help flatten my gamma curve for I have the same problem you had, I cant seem to make it smooth. here is my file

 

2.22 gamma.zip 1.0595703125k . file
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post #79 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron S View Post

Thanks for your feedback !!

I'm not sure I follow you on your comment about contrast though. I thought I had set the 100% Y (of xyY ) values between the 2 modes fairly close (168 vs 172 ) with different contrast for the different modes. I think I recall trying with a lower contrast in the user mode and saw the same shape. I'll try to find it and post it.

Any comments on the off reading for green?

0.040 /0.545 /3.498 /13.097 /24.309 /39.058 /57.923 /78.830 /104.966 /133.991 /167.860 = Movie mode

0.050 /0.469 /3.966 /15.701 /29.247 /46.097 /67.781 /91.553 /121.432 /148.870 /171.991 = User mode

What I mean is that looking at the numbers above you'll see that from 30IRE and up overall light output decreased, giving you a smoother curve. What you need to do is adjust your brightness/contrast controls(w/ patterns) EVERY TIME you change modes. That way you can do a more direct comparison.

About your green oversaturation, that's typical of digital displays. If you don't have Color decoder controls, there's nothing you can do about it.
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post #80 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:33pm
jay,

What kind of display is it? If it's a plasma I'm going to bet that the only way to get it flatter is to reduce your contrast. That's what I had to do to get rid of the "S-curve" that you have when you look at it in normal (non-log) mode.

What this means is that you'll end up with a lower absolute contrast ratio but that's normal for a plasma. I did some searching and I believe that to hit proper gamma the best CR is in the 300:1 range. Don't sweat the small number because this is different from on/off contrast that get's quoted in the specs.

I'm going to be redoing my gamma tonight after reading some reference material (Poynton and the link posted earlier) along with testing the 1.22 beta so I'll see what I can get.
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post #81 of 3872
1/15/07 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudbudy View Post

ok now before i get really confused please tell me if this correct for doing grayscale you use 75% and for primary and secondary you use 100% is this right? just want to be sure before i attack the plasma one more time and do it all over again thanks for this wonderful piece of software.

As Patrice mentioned, you don't have to change anything on the settings for either. If you have "window patterns" then just use 100%. If using "full field" use 75%. This only applies to Primary/Secondary colors. This doesn't apply to grayscale, that's why you use 11 steps of gray .
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post #82 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:00pm
I just concluded my 4th run and came up with a slightly different calibration than before. The contrast is a bit better.

Please have a look at my latest two calibration files and tell me which one you would use and why.

Should I simply reduce my COLOR setting to help bring the primaries and secondaries closer to reference. If I do that will it effect my RGB levels histogram?

Thanks so much!!

 

KDS50A2000_Last Two Runs.zip 2.1171875k . file
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post #83 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

As Patrice mentioned, you don't have to change anything on the settings for either. If you have "window patterns" then just use 100%. If using "full field" use 75%. This only applies to Primary/Secondary colors. This doesn't apply to grayscale, that's why you use 11 steps of gray .

HDholic - what is causing the differnce in my color readings at 75% and 100%?

Thanks!
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post #84 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartinjr24 View Post

HDholic - what is causing the differnce in my color readings at 75% and 100%?

Thanks!

The only difference I see is w/ Magenta. But I'm not so sure as to why it changed. What type of display are you calibrating? Are you using "window" or "full field" patterns?
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post #85 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:30pm
carillo-

I like your 4th run better since it has a lower black level. Both gamma curves are fairly close, if you can tweak its gamma a bit more at the top end without affecting picture quality, it'll be better. If oversaturated colors bother you then you could bring color control down a bit. It may affect grayscale slightly.

I'll suggest wathing some material and judge for yourself of course. Can't just focus on a graphic . At the end of the day, it might be impossible to have a perfect gamma. You may have to sacrifice a bit of something.
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post #86 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

The only difference I see is w/ Magenta. But I'm not so sure as to why it changed. What type of display are you calibrating? Are you using "window" or "full field" patterns?

I have a mitsubishi DLP. I'm not sure about the window or full field pattern. How can I tell? I am using getgray's calibration dvd and using the color section.

thanks for the help.
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post #87 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:40pm
Window pattern = colored rectangle in middle of display (50% scale)

Full field = covers entire display (100% scale)
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post #88 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

jay,

What kind of display is it? If it's a plasma I'm going to bet that the only way to get it flatter is to reduce your contrast. That's what I had to do to get rid of the "S-curve" that you have when you look at it in normal (non-log) mode.

What this means is that you'll end up with a lower absolute contrast ratio but that's normal for a plasma. I did some searching and I believe that to hit proper gamma the best CR is in the 300:1 range. Don't sweat the small number because this is different from on/off contrast that get's quoted in the specs.

I'm going to be redoing my gamma tonight after reading some reference material (Poynton and the link posted earlier) along with testing the 1.22 beta so I'll see what I can get.

thanks for the pointers and yes it is a plasma. I will give that a try again
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post #89 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Window pattern = colored rectangle in middle of display (50% scale)

Full field = covers entire display (100% scale)

It's a windows pattern then. What would you recommend changing?
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post #90 of 3872
1/15/07 at 4:58pm
Well since you had to max the magenta control w/out good results, use the 75% settings, besides the other colors are identical to 100% settings.

As a last resort, take readings with "full field" patterns and compare. DLPs unlike CRT or Plasma have no problem with such patterns.
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