Is it possible to use a battery backup AND a power console ?!?

How weird! I have the exact same question involving almost the exact same gear. I recently acquired 4 PureAV products, the battery backup, the PF60 , the PF40 , and the PF31 .

I'm wondering it it's ok to use one of the power consoles in conjunction with the battery backup. Not only to have the backup power for my DLP and Xbox360, but also because the battery backup features Automatic Voltage Regulation, a feature I really like.

Any help is appreciated.

You would want to put in any surge protection before your UPS.

CJ

Seems rather redundant as a decent UPS should also provide the same level if not better noise rejection, transient suppression, and voltage stabilization of a line conditioner.

That's just it, most Line Conditioners don't offer voltage stabilization. They only protect against overvoltage, but do nothing about undervoltage. That's why I like the Battery Backup w/ AVR.

Any other comments or opinions?

Surge suppressor before UPS. If you need more outlets from a UPS, just use a cheap power strip w/o surge protection. Make sure not to overload the UPS.

I'm not familiar with that model of battery backup, but I have some very general concerns.

Seems like most AVR (automatic voltage regulation) systems in battery backups only kick in during extreme undervoltages. Some can be set for tight or loose regulation of the voltage, but even with tight regulation, your system might be able to operate constantly at 110 volts without triggering the AVR circuitry. Might want to look at your AVR specs.

Although I assume that your sub uses a digital amp, the other amp probably is not digital. Having so much plugged into the line conditioner which is plugged into the UPS sounds excessive for all but the biggest UPS. And even if you have a delayed turn on, when the input capacitor of that amp charges, it may pop the fuse. Don't know if that applies to a digital amp. On the other hand, I've heard that digital amps are inherently better regulated, so maybe that has less need for such AC treatment.

And that only thing that really needs a battery anyway is the DLP, so the lamp can cool down during blackouts.

If you are getting close to the limits of what that line conditioner and UPS can handle, what happens during a movie when there a loud explosion and you exceed the limits at that point? You might be inhibiting the dynamics of the amps. Unless they have some good internal capacitance for reserves, they'll run out of power during those dynamic scenes.

I remember that the Monster AVS2000 (not the AVP2000) stores energy and provided it during brownout via variac. But I think there was a delay, and even some audible noise. There are deals on these.

To maintain a perfect 120 volts at all times, if your UPS is not tightly enough regulated in its AVR, you might look at the AC regenerators which constantly generate exactly 120 volts at 60hz nomatter what the condition. But some of those don't include batteries. If so, you could put your UPS on the DLP for cooldown, and put a cheap regenerator on everything else.

Just a matter of preference, I don't like having so many things plugged into one conditioner, because I don't like sharing the duplexes on the rear of line conditioners. I understand that the 2 components plugged into 1 duplex are not generally fully isolated from each other. Rather than just put all digital stuff on 1 duplex and all analog on another, I prefer to put only 1 component on the duplex.

Um... Just use the UPS then and forget about the line conditioner was the point I was trying to make.

Most UPS's (unless you are talking about a double-conversion unit) do not have voltage correction until the voltage drops very low. They also don't do anything for over-voltage.

CJ

That is why I originally said a decent UPS.

Actully I prefer ferroresonant transformer based UPS's.

A controled ferroresonant based UPS constantly maintains +/-1% output regulation without using battery power, even with input voltage fluctuations as great as +10% or -25%, regardless of load.

Only draw back to thease UPS designs is they are audibly noisy and are best put in a closet or basement and a dedicated line run to your equipment.

If you just want something that looks pretty in your rack then get a Monster or something like that with lots of bells and whistles.

I just call them AC regenerators, but Powerware makes some inexpensive double-online conversion UPS units. Probably around $250 online for a used unit with 700 to 1050 VA.

I had a Tripplite model but it died during a hurricane. Maybe a surge. I don't know. Whatever the reason, it was too short lived for me to recommend it. Although that might be unfair if it did its job.

Just an FYI... the PureAV AP51300-10 is down to under $700 at Amazon.

Check it out here.

I found your thread because I was trying to figure out which UPS/Surge Protector/Line Conditioner I wanted and the Belkin units with the AVR always work well for computers so I was trying to look for their solution.

This unit can be adjusted and configured through your computer via USB it seems. Very cool.

Cheers!

I was also thinking of going from my Wall AC > Monster 3500 Pro > APC Smart UPS VA1000 rackmount.

I was going to use the monster as the first layer of protection and then use the APC for the computer , Projector, since it has AVR....

Monster is really there so I can monitor voltage and amp draw from the circut...

Everything except my power amps are going to be plugged into the UPS.

All i really wanted to know is it bad practice to plug a UPS into a power conditioner? I am also trying to reduce cabling mess and just keep it inside the rack.

The only possible problem I could see is if you had some sort of active power regeneration in the power conditioning module. A simple power conditioning unit ( filtering only) should not cause any problems with a UPS plugged in.

I however must question the need for a power conditioner and a UPS unit for your equipment. Do you have a serious power quality problem at your residence???

Not really a power problem... more of an MOV fear lol.

The APC UPS was a used purchase for about $120. It works great, good battery life and keeps my computer raid config safe. It provides AVR and clean power for the computer and projector. Main reason for the thing is really just battery power.

I really just wanted to plug it into the Monster 3500 which I also already have; as an additional layer of protection. Also to see my total amp draw for the entire system. Incase the MOV on either one of the items is bad it would help protect my gear.

Im not looking for a miracle from monster 3500, I got it more for the convenience of a high end rackmounted power strip with a light and voltage and amp monitor.

As long as im not going to run into problems with daisy chaining things like that im happy.

Should I be plugging my power amps (pro audio amps) into the Monster 3500? I think my power is pretty clean at home.

The power supplies in most of your AV equipment will act as a buffer to most power quality issues. A high quality whole house surge suppression unit installed at the main panel and a smaller unit at your sensitive equipment locations should prevent most overvoltage issues from wreaking havoc.

Most UPS units below $300 are nothing more than switched battery supplies. While the UPS is in normal mode, it passes standard outlet voltage to plugged in components. When called upon (undervoltage event), the UPS switches to battery power. The switching transient introduced at the output recepticles is very similar to an overvoltage transient. Additionally, unless the UPS output (from battery power) is heavily filtered, the output waveform looks like a stepped square wave rich in harmonic content.

Now, I can definately see the usefulness of a UPS in a situation with computer equipment attached.

I’ve been using APC for a very long time since I am a computer IT…that’s why I have a large comfort level with them too.

I think I did mention above the APC UPS I was using is the Smart UPS which actually does AVR boost and trim meaning the unit is capable of adjusting the voltage high and low w/o the batteries intervention. It only goes on battery in both under and over voltage scenarios when the voltage is past the AVR threshold.

Also keep in mind the commercial UPS units (smart power) all output Sine Wave power so they can be used with generator equipment...

While you are correct in saying most unit under $300 (mine cost about $400-450 new). Most UPS unit you get a best buys isnt going to provide jack for protection or voltage problems beside for battery when you have a power faliur.

I would love to check the output with a 'scope to see if they are tellin the truth

Many here are buying low-buck UPS units which are exactly as you describe. I have had some experience with the AVR setting tolerances on these SMART UPS units. You have to watch what your computer equipment power supply will tolerate when attached to many of these units.

I too would love to have a chance to check the output with a scope... I just feel APC is a pretty trusted brand...my friend who is also an IT works with APC products which are in the price range of a decent car...

The cheapest UPS I own is $500 new... I have about (5) APC Smart 1500 in my office and 1 rack mount 1000 in my AV rack. I have one little surge protector battery which is pretty much useless IMO unless you are just powering things like a cable modem and router.

I ran a lot of tests on my units since they are protecting all my of office mission critical services like telecommunications and rack server infrastructure... I had pretty good luck with them so decided to use them in the AV world as well... Again I do have computers in my AV rack too.

I think I am the only guy in my office that’s THRILLED when we have a power failure… which we actually get from time to time.

You are truly a geek like some of us here....welcome

I look at the failure of the power system as a chance to verify operation of the backup systems as well. We end up with a lot of work when things fail in this sort of situation.

A related question:

I am in the planning stages for my new house and AV distribution, automation design. My intention was to plug my dsl modem and router into a UPS, but I had also thought about the satellite tuner(s), since they take so long to re-boot after a power failure. (All equipment in the central network closet). The plan is to have a natural gas-powered generator, so the UPS's would only need to provide power until the transfer switch kicked in (?8-10sec). I am wondering if the sat tuner is a bad idea. .

My current cheapo-UPS (I actually have two) is an APC Back-UPS ES 650, BE650R, 650VA/390watt.

I love answering questions like this =)

First off I would not use any of the UPS units you have with a generator since they were never designed to work with them. Hence the Sine Wave power output of the Smart UPS units.

This can be a very simple and cheap thing to do, or you can spend a ton of money doing it... It all depends on how crazy you want to get...

If you are planning on having a generator (which is a fantastic idea now a days) you have two options...

1. Protect only critical items (computers, modems, routers, firewalls, even your refrigerator yes I have a Smart UPS 1500 on my fridge keep in mind I don't have a generator for my house, and food can spoil)

2. Protect the entire house. (Expensive method)

In a commercial environment like a modern day office or hospital, even a home UPS or Battery backup system are used primarily to provide uninterrupted power to the ENTIRE facility for a short period of time (usually 10-15 min sometimes even less) to allow the generators to kick in. Then the point of the battery is to provide clean power or Sine Wave power with AVR (for APC products). The short runtime is due to two things, you are a very high wattage load for the entire facility and since you have a generator runtime isn't as issue, as long as the generator(s) kick on.

In a standard home like mine & even my office, I don't use a generator So I only protect critical items, but now runtime is a very big deal to me In my office I use an APC 1500 on my phone system, routers, and firewalls (no computers on this circuit). Since the load barley dents the UPS I get about 3-4 hours of run time during office hours.

For computers they are just supposed to have a graceful shutdown and my server's tent to have about an hour run time before shutdown. Some offices like my friends work have a rack full of APC products where they are able to sustain power for at least 24 hours w/o the use of a generator on mission critical gear.

If you are going to use generators, the cost of UPS for you isn't going to matter that much, just make sure you buy a decent UPS.

In terms of protection for a home, it's really what you want protected I have an old little UPS like the ones you have. That's even connected to my garage door. I had a power outage once in the morning, and wasn't able to get to work! I told myself never again. I also use a $1000 Fortigate VPN/AV firewall in my house, gear like that does NOT like power failures so pretty much my entire computer, phone, HAM Radio, IT gear, projector, food, and other things are protected

I was going to wait for someone to comment on the old fogies ham radio since im a young guy.. but screw it lol. Seriously though, you can get pretty creative with stuff like this, and I can talk all day about it; so ill shut up now. PM me if you have any specific questions or need some connections to where to buy IT stuff if you want NEW.

Took these picts a while ago..

My AV Rack and some APC UPS units.

I'd stay away from APC.

Safety Recall

Back-UPS CS Owners
In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), as well as safety organization and government agencies worldwide, American Power Conversion is recalling their Back-UPS CS models in both 120-volt and 230-volt units listed below.

PROBLEM: Potential Overheating and Fire Hazard.

But of course I do work for a competitor so I am a little biased.

This is my exact problem, what do I need to buy to fix it???

You need to oversize your UPS by at least 1.5X the nominal load 2X is preferred.

Look at all the equipment that is going to be plugged into the UPS output and add up its power rating.

You will notice your equipments power consumption is rated in Watts and UPS output power is rated in VA. (Volt Amperes)

I don't have the time or space to fully explain how Watts and VA can be the same or different measurements of the same power. But suffice to say UPS manufacturers (even the one I work for) use VA because it "looks bigger".

Just figure a UPS is good for about 75% Watts of its output VA rating.

Simply put a 500VA UPS is good for about 375 Watts.

I am not running an UPS, just a line conditioner.

Unless it is one of the "power regenerator" types I see no reason why any type of current limiting would occur.

But anyway the same 1.5-2X oversize rule of thumb should apply.

Thanks, but I think the problem is with the receiver itself. I will know for sure soon, I just bought a 606 to replace it.