Sharp XV-Z20000 to support 1080/24p! - Page 9

Page 60 of the manual. 1600x900@60Hz is the most you can do with DVI.

This means it will accept those rates for input, not output.

Well, color me confused. I used JudderTest back when I got the z20k for exactly this sort of thing and the difference was very, very noticeable (smooth at 24p, appropriately juddery when not). Further, and I just reconfirmed this, when I switch to a 24p source, you can actually hear the color wheel slow down. Finally, I'm very definitely pumping 1080p24 down my DVI connect to my z20k and have been for a few years now. My source devices confirm it, the projectors signal info display confirms it.

Can't explain what others are seeing, but the difference before and after the patch was very notacible. The projector changes pitch (wheel), the display says 1080p24, JudderTest and film-sourced material all support this.

Gerry

Sorry for the confusion; the projector shows the input signal info in the menu, not the output.

Don't get me wrong, I very much want 1080p/24 output at 48Hz to be true. Instead of relying on a HTPC which can be flaky with 24fps playback, I fired up the ol' PS3, set it to force 1080p/24 and watched the end credits scroll of my T2 BD (good judder torture test). I then put it back to force 1080p/60 and watched the credits again. Zero difference.

Again, based on my observation, the projector is doing something like 24p (possibly 48p), but the difference is absolutely noticeable. I've been fighting judder on digital projectors since I first switched to one after leaving my beloved sony CRT projector. The difference is not subtle. JudderTest, an excellent tool for discovering and diagnosing frame-rate problems, shows it clearly (and before the patch, there was no way to get a clean run with JudderTest). And again, if you listen closely, when switching between a 60hz and 24hz source, you can clearly hear the colorwheel slow down.

I'm not doubting your not seeing different things, but I have to believe there is some difference in our units, firmware or source components. My HTPC (nvidia based cards) has never had any problems pumping out 24hz, even though the z20k EDID doesn't have explicit support in it (you do have to force it).

Very odd, but I do know that for the z20k, at least in my case, it is possible to do 24hz playback natively (or, as I suspect, more likely 48hz, but that is a difference of no difference in the end). Trying to figure out why some folks are not seeing it should be an interesting exercise (I'll help as much as I can).

Gerry

My HTPC also has an Nvidia card (8800GT 512). I can add a custom resolution of 1080p/24 using either 24.000 or 23.976 and confirm the Z20K is picking up a 1080p/24 signal source input. I'm using Arcsoft TMT5. There's nothing else in my VP chain (I don't use a receiver for HDMI switching). Pans and credit scrolls look exactly the same as when my resolution is set to 1080p/60 (also confirmed previously with my PS3).

If the projector was actually displaying at 24Hz, you would see obvious flashing/blanking. It would most certainly be 48Hz if it worked (which I don't believe it does). There's no way this projector is displaying at 72Hz or 96Hz.

A 24fps source played at 60Hz using correct 3:2 pulldown versus a 24fps source played at 48Hz to keep cadence IS subtle. Slow pans and credit scrolls are pretty much the only places you'd be able to notice, and even then you have to be looking for it.

IMHO, you are most likely comparing 24fps input performance on the Z20K pre-1.1.5, which would not look good since it's not correctly applying 3:2 pulldown, versus post-1.1.5, which would indeed look much better/smoother than before, BUT still showing at 60Hz.

Not to mention if you were previously viewing 24fps sources converted to 30fps, that would obviously look extremely juddery, since it wouldn't have the extra breathing room of 60fps to do 3:2 pulldown.

What exactly are your sources, and what software are you using?

As this discussion continues, I thought I would add the following, for reference...

I revisited Greg Rogers review on this projector (Jan 2007), pre-firmware fix. He says that it accepted 1080p24, 1080p24sf, and 1080p48 signals over HDMI, but that they did not display at the input frame rate (or exact multiple), and displayed significant judder and dark flashes.

He also says the XV-Z20000 produces "pixel perfect" images when its DVI or HDMI inputs are driven by 1080i or 1080p digital video signals.

(I wish he had tested the projector again, after the firmware fix - anybody know if he did?)

After reading the other thread I mentioned earlier (see post #232), and looking at the resolution chart on page 60 of the owners manual, it would seem to me that it would be far easier to design a vert. osc. circuit to lock onto the incoming vert rate, and display that rate, than to convert the noted incoming freq. rates [43,50,56,60,70,72 (yes-72),74,75,85,90,96,100], back to 50 or 60hz. So, it would not surprise me, if the Sharp displays at other rates.

I suggest we pursue more testing, to nail down a conclusive answer here, using direct 1080p24 and 1080p48 sources, with both the DVI and HDMI inputs, with autosync and manual experimentation.

Gerry, can you be very specific on the details of your hookup and menu selections?

Thanks to all, for your help!!

Tom

That's good to hear. I had even bought a DVI->HDMI adapter thinking the DVI port would be limited, but I guess it's not too surprising that Sharp's manual isn't showing the correct acceptable PC input rates via DVI.


I guess I just don't understand why this wouldn't be surprising. That thread is talking about Sony's SXRD projector which is completely different than DLP technology. Especially at the time, native 24p compatibility was extremely rare, with DLP projectors joining the game a good deal bit later than LCOS variants.


I'm totally up for this, and don't mean to be a negative Nelly. It's just that Sharp's track record with their XV-Zxxxxx line simply doesn't support the 24p native output theory.

Also, if you compare it to the closest competitor that does have 48Hz output support (Marantz VP-15S1), you'll see that they have a specific frame rate control (FRC) setting where you can actually choose 48Hz (47.95Hz). The Sharp simply does not have anything like this at all.

In fact, saying that the Sharp then ONLY outputs 24fps material at 48Hz (i.e., you literally do not even have the option to choose 60Hz output in this case) pretty much goes against any other digital projector that's existed.

I know they are totally different technologies. I was thinking of it more from the standpoint of designing a projector to display different computer display rates - what type of circuit would be easier. I hope the Sharp indeed can accomodate other rates.

If the firmware fix specified that 24p would output at 48p, we would not have a choice.

Perhaps the DVI input is a factor here. If the HDMI input is specific to 50 & 60 hz, it may not be able to accept 48hz, whereas the DVI input might. Just a thought.

More testing?

Tom

The DVI/HDMI inputs can INPUT all kinds of different display rates (I'm sure 48Hz included)...the OUTPUT is the problem.

Here's the exact verbiage from the 1.1.5 firmware release notes (attached):

"The new software can cope with HDTV signal 1080_24P (1080 Line 24 Hz Progressive Signal).

America / Europe market requests to receive 1080_24P signal that is one of the HDTV signals. This software is to expand the specification.

If the 1080_24P signal is input to the projector with old software, the screen may be whitish and no-smooth.

Please upgrade to the new main software when user complains in this case."

 

Z20K_1.1.5_instructions.pdf 60.1240234375k . file

OK, it's been a while since anyone posted here - was it something I said?

Anyway, to start, I propose the following simple test, to see if anyone can duplicate Gerry's claim:

Using a bluray player (capable of native 24p playback), connect it to the Z20K, using an HDMI to DVI cable (DVI input on the projector). Playback a "film" movie, at 1080p60 (from the player). Note output display - does it match picture quality of HDMI input? If so, listen carefully to color wheel noise as you switch bluray player to 1080p24 playback - does color wheel slow down? Note output display - does it look different from previous (1080p60) setting?

If there is no difference between tests - try "autosync" command, or different manual settings, to see if projector responds differently. (If you google: "xv-z9000 owners manual", you find more detailed information on the autosync function, than in the z20k manual.)

Are there several on this forum who would be willing to do this test - it would help to nail down this issue. (Note that I personally cannot perform any of these tests at this time, as I have all my theater equipment packed and stored, as I will be moving down the road and don't know when I can access them.)

Gerry - do you have anything to add - any special settings we need to set???

Thanks to all of you!!

Tom

I forgot to add that this test should be performed by users who have successfully upgraded to the 1.1.5 firmware upgrade. Also, that it be tested on the DVI input (computer and video inputs).

Thanks!

Tom

Hello All,

I spoke with a technician about the refresh rate on the Sharp z20k. He said a simple experiment could be done to let us know the display refresh rate. The experiment would be to input video with alternating "black" and "white" frames at known frame rate. Then, using a photo detector, observe for a light variation by connecting the output of the photodector to an oscilloscope. There will be alternating full-off and full-on light variations when seen on the oscilloscope, the duration of either region will tell the display frame rate.

Anyone willing to do this test?

Tom

Hi
Just picked up a sharp with the 1.0.9 firmware on it would anyone still have the 1.1.5 update my e-mail is ken.sullivan@live.ie

Thanks Ken

Please guys,
I am in need of the latest firware...1.1.5
please send me a link or send it to ruva@ruva.net

thanks

If you PM me your email address I should be able to send it to you. Attachment is around 3MB so please make sure the mailbox can cope ( no hotmail).

I'm also looking for the 1.1.5 firmware...PM me if you can help. Thanks in advance!

Hello All,

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

In my quest to confirm, for sure, if this projector does project 24p material. (There has been a lot of speculation on this, on AVS.)

I'm wondering if a technician, who has the Sharp z20k (or access to one), could perform the following test...

Would it be possible, to measure the output of the color wheel SENSOR, using an oscilloscope, for 50hz and 60hz speeds, then check it for 24hz (or 48hz)? If so, this would confirm that the color wheel is slowing down, at 24p.

I'm not able to do this test myself.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you very much!!

You shouldn't *need* an oscilliscope to confirm that the color wheel slows down. As long as the room is quiet you should be able to hear the wheel change in pitch if it's actually slowing down. From experience with several DLPs this has always been the case. So unless their color wheel is silent that should suffice. Though, from reports, the outlook does not look good. It will accept a 24p signal but it instead of frame doubling, like most DLP projectors, it uses 3:2 pulldown and keeps the signal at 60hz. This is the case even with the latest firmware.

I just picked one up on ebay. I'll let you know my findings when I test out 24p. Though, the lack of real 24p support won't bother me in the least. I use a HTPC and the latest version of MadVR has an absolutely awesome algorithm incorporated and when enabled it creates perfect "24p" at 60hz. I've played around with a few projectors with it on at 60hz and it looks exactly the same as when the projector internally frame doubles a real 24p signal.

This might be an offtopic, but TBH there is a substantial difference between using native refresh rate for 24 Hz sources and madVR's implementation on a 60 Hz display. Maybe this isn't very obvious on projectors (or many other display devices with less than stellar motion resolution) but on my CRT monitor it's pretty damn obvious. There's a loss in sharpness due to blending method used to present frames. This is especially obvious on panning scenes. However I give props to Madshi for he is the only one who provided a solution to beat pulldown judder. There's no hardware solution for it, afaik.

Thanks for the replies - and for the offer to test this projector.

I'm not really looking to rehash speculation and opinions here. I have seen plenty of diverse views (improves motion / color wheel slows down vs. no improvement) on national and overseas chat rooms. All it tells me is that there is confusion on what the projector is doing. Unfortunately, Sharp's info on the latest firmware is rather vague. It's possible that it may only work under certain conditions.

The "scope" test would answer it once and for all. Not only would it tell us if it does work, but exactly what freq. is projected (24p vs. 48p). The test would have to be done on a projector with the latest firmware, and should be done using the different video inputs and modes of operation, using a bluray player and HTPC.

Anyone up to the task?

I haven't noticed any issues whatsoever. Is this a common thing people have complained about or something that you've noticed?

Yes, I've seen someone else mention it in madVR topic on Doom9. And if I remember correctly he also had a CRT. I assume it might be harder to notice with motion blur.

When I get the Sharp I'll play around with it to see if I can notice some blur/loss of sharpness. Maybe it's something only noticeable on CRTs?

I think it will be noticeable on any display capable of 1080 lines of motion resolution. But as I said, it is most noticeable on panning scenes. Easiest to see is on that motion resolution test video.

I'll test it out on a plasma tomorrow. Typically you wouldn't turn the algorithm on during that test because you want it running in 60hz without anything touching the rendered frames. I've noticed it doesn't work well with material that isn't 24.000 or 24/1001. But when the material is either of those frame rates it works wonderfully on a couple projectors I've tried it on. That is, I haven't noticed anything visually off putting.

Hello All,

If you google the following, this might help to test this projector:

"Measuring the DLP Color Wheel Speed"

It is an AVS forum.

Anyone up to the task?